What happened to my Church? What happened to the music?

[lola5555]

I just wanted to say that I enjoy clapping after the final song of mass. The mass has ended at that point, and most people hurriedly left as the priest walked out. Sometimes there are just a couple dozen of us left out of several hundred when the final song ends. For me the clapping is not “Bravo I enjoyed the music do much” like the end if a concert. Instead it is "I appreciate the time and talent you used to support us in song for mass ".

Here is a Protestant Sunday worship service. Light shows, rock and roll, only thing missing is stage dives and crowd surfing (although I have seen that in youth groups). To say even the most contemporary mass in any way resembles this is ludicrous to us converts’!

youtu.be/xWv6Lzh3yl8

youtu.be/CKtiPzHpI4g

Well that’s nice that you enjoy being Catholic now. Maybe, to a convert the changes in mass are so little noticed or known as to not be significant. I don’t know. That’s not the perspective I have. But comparing contemporary mass to Protestant service as means to justify the former seems silly and rather pointless. Further I’ve been to plenty of Protestant services that were really more traditional Catholic than some masses…now, that’s sad.

As far as the clapping goes, I get what you’re saying-- it’s a show of appreciation. The mass may be over, but people may still be worshiping and praying so it’s rude to distract them (that’s why we shouldn’t talk in church either…go outside, right?). I could list reasons why applause just isn’t a good idea in church, but I really don’t want to get into a tit for tat. I guess we just disagree. But do know you may be turning people off to church as much as you are showing appreciation.

When I’ve been to those mega church rock concert/ worship services I feel like I need to go home and take a shower. I feel awful like when I know I’ve commited a mortal sin! I say that in jest …well, maybe!? I don’t know. It’s just weird to me personally.

I’m so thankful my parish doesn’t do this sort of stuff …for now!

Take a shower…somehow that really sums it up nicely. It may sound dramatic, but the contemporary music, the clapping, the chit chats in the pew, snacks and toys for kids, endless Sign of Peace ‘merriment,’ etc. is just a stab to my heart. I’m not even old enough to remember pre-Vatican II, but something in my soul says ‘No, this is wrong.’

 

[UnumCorpus]

Honestly I’ve never understood the obsession some people have on here about proper music or instruments. I love all kinds of music and provided it is played with reverence I do not think it ultimately matters what genre it is. But maybe that’s just me.

Those churches are all about a “feel good” experience. There’s no substance there. Worshipping God is not about what we can get out of it but what we are giving to God for His love and mercy and how His only son died for us.

Wow, that is quite the generalization. I am not sure what kind of church you initially came from but this is not the case with the evangelical churches I used to attend. I agree that it is not nearly as contemplative as the Mass but it still does have “substance”. I’ve seen people get healed at these kinds of churches. My grandfather was a Pentecostal minister and missionary, and he and my grandmother were dramatically healed. They had an undeniable love for Christ as do many who attend evangelical churches, even if they misunderstand Catholicism.

I have a strong desire to become Catholic but I dislike this whole attitude of “Protestant services are superficial”. No, I have seen many weep openly at the conviction of God. They may not have the holy Eucharist but they are worshipping God in the best way they know how.

 

[Jon_S_1]

Honestly I’ve never understood the obsession some people have on here about proper music or instruments. I love all kinds of music and provided it is played with reverence I do not think it ultimately matters what genre it is. But maybe that’s just me.

Wow, that is quite the generalization. I am not sure what kind of church you initially came from but this is not the case with the evangelical churches I used to attend. I agree that it is not nearly as contemplative as the Mass but it still does have “substance”. I’ve seen people get healed at these kinds of churches. My grandfather was a Pentecostal minister and missionary, and he and my grandmother were dramatically healed. They had an undeniable love for Christ as do many who attend evangelical churches, even if they misunderstand Catholicism.

I have a strong desire to become Catholic but I dislike this whole attitude of “Protestant services are superficial”. No, I have seen many weep openly at the conviction of God. They may not have the holy Eucharist but they are worshipping God in the best way they know how.

Yes,

You are right about denigrating Protestants. I need to be careful on that, I had lots of good experiences in worship in Protestant churches.

It’s sometimes hard to not generalize on the message board, and we often use extreme examples to make a point, so just know that when you are reading the posts.

 

[Jon_S_1]

Well that’s nice that you enjoy being Catholic now. Maybe, to a convert the changes in mass are so little noticed or known as to not be significant. I don’t know. That’s not the perspective I have. But comparing contemporary mass to Protestant service as means to justify the former seems silly and rather pointless. Further I’ve been to plenty of Protestant services that were really more traditional Catholic than some masses…now, that’s sad.

As far as the clapping goes, I get what you’re saying-- it’s a show of appreciation. The mass may be over, but people may still be worshiping and praying so it’s rude to distract them (that’s why we shouldn’t talk in church either…go outside, right?). I could list reasons why applause just isn’t a good idea in church, but I really don’t want to get into a tit for tat. I guess we just disagree. But do know you may be turning people off to church as much as you are showing appreciation.

Take a shower…somehow that really sums it up nicely. It may sound dramatic, but the contemporary music, the clapping, the chit chats in the pew, snacks and toys for kids, endless Sign of Peace ‘merriment,’ etc. is just a stab to my heart. I’m not even old enough to remember pre-Vatican II, but something in my soul says ‘No, this is wrong.’

I just wanted to point out that it was the “traditional Catholics” claiming having a guitar in church is us trying to be more like Protestants who made the comparison.

I showed that any catholic liturgy is a far cry from many of these Protestant worship experiences to show they were wrong, not to show that ours is tamer than there’s and thus ok.

Simply pointing out that their claims are not justified when they claim mass is turning into a show.

 

[johnnyc176]

The Catholic Church needn’t become more protestant to attract protestants. The Truth should suffice.

 

[pianistclare]

In my humble opinion, I feel he is spot on with his assessment. Especially when he pegs the music minister’s repertory that consist mostly of “short, peppy musical intrusions.”

All generalizations, that I must say, as a Music minister, are greatly over exaggerated. People have no idea what Music Ministers are expected and permitted to do or not do.
People who think they can do a better job pleasing all the complainers in the parishes can step up and do it.
The Mass doesn’t HAVE to have music. Ask the priest to do away with it.
And then you can listen to some more complaining.
That’s my opinion, as someone working in Music ministry for the last 30 years and who has seen every trend there is.
Lamenting about the past is like trying to get back that new car smell. You can try to duplicate it, but it won’t ever be the same. Everyone’s memory is jaded.

We have to work with what is. What you really have to work with. What kind of budget do you really have. What kind of training do you really offer. What kind of salary for a real, trained, and gifted musician does the parish really want to cover?
What does the pastor want?
THAT’S the big question. What does the pastor want? You might be very surprised.

 

[EMFrost]

This is the same thing that is happening in the Protestant Evangelical Churches, they are conforming to the culture around them instead of transforming it. In an attempt to reach un-churched people they have sacrificed the traditional “God centered” worship/adoration, for a “man centered” doing whatever is right in their own eyes mentality. This has weakened the Protestant Churches, and made them more and more worldly. I hope that Catholicism does not go down this same road. Even if we were to have an outreach to the world, we should never give up the liturgy and traditional worship; otherwise we will end up living in a fools paradise like the Mega-Church attending Evangelicals.

Saint Nicolas

My Dad is the same. He still mourns over his childhood Episcopalian church which he watched fall apart. Then he tried to look to the Anglican church for its fortitude but it started falling away from its own teaching too.
Now he is Catholic and whenever this kind of stuff happens in Church- inappropriate music, and other things that reflect a lack of a reverent attitude, etc you can see the fear building in him that the Catholic Church is next. I hope He knows we will not conform to this age.

It’s funny (sad really) how they use that stuff: the inappropriate for mass music, the hand motions, the “relevant” homilies to approach the young. But honestly- we really don’t like it either… We know we’re not being taken seriously. Worst of all it’s not taking God seriously and I will not stand for it.

I’m not saying the music is intrinsically evil, actually I listen to it and enjoy it all the time- OUTSIDE of the Holy Mass. Within the Holy Mass? Please no. No, no, no, no, no!

 

[Convert2013]

Honestly I’ve never understood the obsession some people have on here about proper music or instruments. I love all kinds of music and provided it is played with reverence I do not think it ultimately matters what genre it is. But maybe that’s just me.

Wow, that is quite the generalization. I am not sure what kind of church you initially came from but this is not the case with the evangelical churches I used to attend. I agree that it is not nearly as contemplative as the Mass but it still does have “substance”. I’ve seen people get healed at these kinds of churches. My grandfather was a Pentecostal minister and missionary, and he and my grandmother were dramatically healed. They had an undeniable love for Christ as do many who attend evangelical churches, even if they misunderstand Catholicism.

I have a strong desire to become Catholic but I dislike this whole attitude of “Protestant services are superficial”. No, I have seen many weep openly at the conviction of God. They may not have the holy Eucharist but they are worshipping God in the best way they know how.

Whooaaa! Hold on there. I was NOT generalizing at all. What I was referring to was those huge Mega-churches, their rock concert worship style and my own personal experiences at them.

I came from a very conservative Methodist church. My parents now attend an Evangelical Church. Neither of those churches would ever do the sort of rock concert type shenanigans that occur in the churches I am speaking of.

If I didn’t love Protestants and had some issue with them personally then I would have issue with my entire family. I love them dearly! I love all the folks I used to attend church with in the past. They love God with all their heart. I am thankful for some of the things I learned as a Protestant. One of those things is Scripture and the other is reverence! So let’s not jump to a conclusion. Peace!

 

[Cat]

Coming from mega church evangelicalism to Catholicism this couldn’t be further from the truth. I’d encourage you to visit or watch online a mega church rock concert and sermon of a mega church.

Even the most “rock style” mass I’ve been too in Catholic Churches is “boring” and “traditional” compared to evangelical churches. Even those youth masses are centered on prayer and humility.

Perspective my friend!

Your grandfather probably said the same thing when the music changed to what you love 60 years ago.

This is the truth.

 

[awolbob]

All generalizations, that I must say, as a Music minister, are greatly over exaggerated. People have no idea what Music Ministers are expected and permitted to do or not do.
People who think they can do a better job pleasing all the complainers in the parishes can step up and do it.
The Mass doesn’t HAVE to have music. Ask the priest to do away with it.
And then you can listen to some more complaining.
That’s my opinion, as someone working in Music ministry for the last 30 years and who has seen every trend there is.
Lamenting about the past is like trying to get back that new car smell. You can try to duplicate it, but it won’t ever be the same. Everyone’s memory is jaded.

We have to work with what is. What you really have to work with. What kind of budget do you really have. What kind of training do you really offer. What kind of salary for a real, trained, and gifted musician does the parish really want to cover?
What does the pastor want?
THAT’S the big question. What does the pastor want? You might be very surprised.

 

[awolbob]

All’s I want is one Sunday mass with NO music
Bob

 

[UnumCorpus]

Whooaaa! Hold on there. I was NOT generalizing at all. What I was referring to was those huge Mega-churches, their rock concert worship style and my own personal experiences at them.

I came from a very conservative Methodist church. My parents now attend an Evangelical Church. Neither of those churches would ever do the sort of rock concert type shenanigans that occur in the churches I am speaking of.

If I didn’t love Protestants and had some issue with them personally then I would have issue with my entire family. I love them dearly! I love all the folks I used to attend church with in the past. They love God with all their heart. I am thankful for some of the things I learned as a Protestant. One of those things is Scripture and the other is reverence! So let’s not jump to a conclusion. Peace!

Oh I see. Thank you for clearing up this misunderstanding. It just didn’t sound like that from your post when I initially read it. I suppose I’ve just seen the attitude of “Protestant services are superficial” from other posters too many times.

Peace to you too.

 

[Joe_5859]

All’s I want is one Sunday mass with NO music
Bob

Are you saying you want an absence of music or that you want “Novus Ordo” music?

 

[EnglishTeacher]

Highly recommend you read “Why Catholics Can’t Sing - The Culture of Catholicism and the Triumph of Bad Taste” by Thomas Day. Enlightening.

I second this. Excellent book; very insightful and at times amusing. The author really hits the nail on the head.

 

[whipp711]

All generalizations, that I must say, as a Music minister, are greatly over exaggerated. People have no idea what Music Ministers are expected and permitted to do or not do.
People who think they can do a better job pleasing all the complainers in the parishes can step up and do it.
The Mass doesn’t HAVE to have music. Ask the priest to do away with it.
And then you can listen to some more complaining.
That’s my opinion, as someone working in Music ministry for the last 30 years and who has seen every trend there is.
Lamenting about the past is like trying to get back that new car smell. You can try to duplicate it, but it won’t ever be the same. Everyone’s memory is jaded.

We have to work with what is. What you really have to work with. What kind of budget do you really have. What kind of training do you really offer. What kind of salary for a real, trained, and gifted musician does the parish really want to cover?
What does the pastor want?
THAT’S the big question. What does the pastor want? You might be very surprised.

I’m picking up on some sensitivity there, Music Minister. Change is ongoing, and it is not necessarily limited to going in one direction towards modernism. Some Parishs in my area have gone back to more traditionalism in liturgy and music. The choir has been moved to the side or back. Music hasn’t been eliminated or diminished. Just the focal point of the Mass has been placed on where it should be all along.

I would ask our Priest, but he avoids sharing dinner with Parishioners. “All people want to do is complain.” His words, not mind. Our resident Caruso doesn’t respond.

Me, I try to attend more like minded Masses. Not to turn back the clock for that new car smell. Change. It goes both ways.

 

[Cat]

No offense my friend, but I could care less about comparing the two just to feel “ok” about it. I find it ironic how the CC gets criticized for not “changing with the times” yet it is in fact doing so in some respects.

Seems as though some CC are attempting to draw people in with this style of music & worship like those Mega churches do, although not on the same scale. So it seems we’ve come to the point where its not about Jesus and HIS sacrifice for us, but how WE feel and what WE get from going. Those churches are all about a “feel good” experience. There’s no substance there. Worshipping God is not about what we can get out of it but what we are giving to God for His love and mercy and how His only son died for us.

I’m young and I enjoy listening to rock music. I personally, do not feel it is appropriate for worship at least not in the Mass. I’m all for doing it at a service of some sort outside of Mass.

You say that “it’s not about Jesus and HIS sacrifice for us, but how WE feel and what WE get from going…”

Isn’t that what several of the posters on this thread are saying? They don’t like the Mass music (modern), so they are on this thread with all kinds of complaints about how the Mass music isn’t what they personally like or what they personally think Mass music should be.

One person said that they are never fulfilled with the current Mass music. Isn’t that making Mass all about how WE feel and what WE get from going?

 

[Cat]

All generalizations, that I must say, as a Music minister, are greatly over exaggerated. People have no idea what Music Ministers are expected and permitted to do or not do.
People who think they can do a better job pleasing all the complainers in the parishes can step up and do it.
The Mass doesn’t HAVE to have music. Ask the priest to do away with it.
And then you can listen to some more complaining.
That’s my opinion, as someone working in Music ministry for the last 30 years and who has seen every trend there is.
Lamenting about the past is like trying to get back that new car smell. You can try to duplicate it, but it won’t ever be the same. Everyone’s memory is jaded.

We have to work with what is. What you really have to work with. What kind of budget do you really have. What kind of training do you really offer. What kind of salary for a real, trained, and gifted musician does the parish really want to cover?
What does the pastor want?
THAT’S the big question. What does the pastor want? You might be very surprised.

This post contains a lot of practical wisdom.

One of the reasons why Protestant and Catholic churches have cut down on or eliminated “traditional” music is that public schools have cut down on or eliminated music education.

The effect of this loss of music education has been daunting in U.S. culture. Many children grow up not learning how to sing properly, and most people grow up without ever learning how to read music. Many people are functionally tone-deaf and cannot match a pitch, which makes it extremely difficult for them to sing chant-type songs–they simply can’t hear the pitches.

This isn’t just a public school shortfall. In our city, the Catholic schools only have 1 full time music teacher. That’s really sad, but the schools are under heavy pressure to offer more academics and less “arts.”

Same for non-Catholic private schools.

Homeschools are hit and miss when it comes to music education. If the parent-teachers never learned to sing or read music, they will most certainly not be able to teach their children. Some parents are able to afford private music lessons or a private choir for their children, but many parents who homeschool do so because they don’t have the money to afford a lot of “extras.”

Some parents are able to get together and “co-op” with other parents who do know music, and that’s great. But it’s not the norm.

In the U.S. most people learn about music and singing from listening to popular music. As you can imagine, this isn’t going to equip anyone to be able to sing a Gregorian chant with any degree of proficiency. Now if you don’t mind listening to cats…it’ll work. But I think that’s why most parishes don’t do a lot of chant–because most people don’t like listening to cats.

So you can rant all you like, but my advice is “Get used to the music that you’re hearing at Mass and make the best of it,” because when children do not receive a music education, they grow up unable to sing, and traditional music cannot be performed unless the singers know how to sing.

I’m really sorry. I really am. It’s tragic to see music that has lasted for centuries gradually disappearing in churches.

 

[Cat]

I’m picking up on some sensitivity there, Music Minister. Change is ongoing, and it is not necessarily limited to going in one direction towards modernism. Some Parishs in my area have gone back to more traditionalism in liturgy and music. The choir has been moved to the side or back. Music hasn’t been eliminated or diminished. Just the focal point of the Mass has been placed on where it should be all along.

I would ask our Priest, but he avoids sharing dinner with Parishioners. “All people want to do is complain.” His words, not mind. Our resident Caruso doesn’t respond.

Me, I try to attend more like minded Masses. Not to turn back the clock for that new car smell. Change. It goes both ways.

Maybe if you didn’t think of him as “our resident Caruso,” you would get a more positive response.

Always remember, musicians are very sensitive people and have fragile egos. They are easily hurt, and if they have somehow figured out that you think of them as a “resident Caruso,” they will in all likelihood avoid you.

I hope this is helpful to you and others who are trying to figure out how to communicate with musicians. The best advice I can give is “Feed them!”

 

[marywarfield]

Does anyone like the song Awesome God?" I’ve only
heard it a couple times and those were at Newman
House played at top volume with drums and electric
guitars. And now our priest wants it in the youth
choir but all we have is an organ. Thoughts?

 

[EMFrost]

“Our God is an Awesome God! He reigns from heaven above with wisdom, power, and love. Our God is an Awesome God!” With hand motions. That one?