What happens if a Catholic is neutral on Homosexual Marriages?

[Buck_Crosswhite]

Romans [31] Foolish, dissolute, without affection, without fidelity, without mercy. [32] Who, having known the justice of God, did not understand that they who do such things, are worthy of death; and not only they that do them, but they also that consent to them that do them.

This is what St. Paul thought of people who are neutral.

 

[Dakota_Roberts]

I don’t think they need all that much more money when they have the support of the educational establishment, the news media, and [lest we forget] most of all the entertainment industry. All these are free advertisement. Around the time of the Stonewall riots, homosexuals said all they wanted was to be left alone. Forty plus years later, we are arguing over SS"M" and whether they should be allowed to adopt children. Not even the Abolition of slavery went that quick.

I actually read an article in ONE magazine that showed how vehemently against marriage homosexuals were. This was in an era before no-fault divorces and marriage really meant permanent commitment, in other words a time when marriage was still marriage, men were still men and women were still women.

 

[Catholicpotato]

Why do you cringe when I say “EDGE”? I don’t know any other Edge programs in other parishes, but I know mine is orthodox. They even taught how to have Christian Ecumenism correctly so you don’t blur the differences between Catholicism and the other Christian religions.

Good! Ours is a good program too but there are others that are watered down. It really just depends on the leader.

 

[sedonaman]

I actually read an article in ONE magazine that showed how vehemently against marriage homosexuals were. …

Noted homosexual activist and pornographer Clinton Fein addressed the “gay” agenda in a 2005 article candidly titled, “The Gay Agenda”:

• On “hate crimes” laws: “Hate Crime laws are just the beginning. Once those are passed either federally or in all 50 states, begin campaign to eliminate homophobia entirely.”

• On “hate thoughts” and “hate speech” laws: “Homophobic inclinations alone, even without any actions, should be criminal and punishable to the full extent of the law.”

• On influencing public policy: “Make sure that gay representation permeates every level of governance.”

• On “same-sex marriage”: “Demand the institution and then wreck it. James Dobson was right about our evil intentions. We just plan to be quicker than he thought.”

• On “gays” in the Church: “Reclaim Jesus. He was a Jewish queer to begin with, and don’t let anyone forget it.”

“Unmasking The ‘Gay’ Agenda”
by Matt Barber
2/13/2008
townhall.com/columnists/mattbarber/2008/02/13/unmasking_the_%E2%80%9Cgay%E2%80%9D_agenda

 

[Castello]

You can’t say someone who disagrees with Church teachings is not a Catholic. You can say he’s a Catholic who is inconsistent with Catholicism. Unless he is excommunicated, he is still a Catholic. Let’s not elevate ourselves above our positions.

Even those under excommunicated are Catholic. Baptism leaves a mark on the soul that cannot be removed. One can be a sinnin’ bound for hell non practicing Catholic.

 

[Castello]

Why do you cringe when I say “EDGE”? I don’t know any other Edge programs in other parishes, but I know mine is orthodox. They even taught how to have Christian Ecumenism correctly so you don’t blur the differences between Catholicism and the other Christian religions.

EDGE is the Jr High School version of “LifeTeen”.

 

[Dakota_Roberts]

You can’t be Catholic and be pro-choice nor for homosexual marriage.

He can not be a Catholic in good standing and be pro-choice nor for homosexual marriage, he becomes a heretical Catholic or heretic for short who has excommunicated himself.

 

[Inquiringperson]

EDGE is the Jr High School version of “LifeTeen”.

Just because it’s “LifeTeen” doesn’t mean it’s bad. It depends on the orthodoxy of the teachers.

 

[Castello]

Just because it’s “LifeTeen” doesn’t mean it’s bad. It depends on the orthodoxy of the teachers.

I agree. I was simply explaining what it was - if one is unaware that name can sound a bit odd. I would be concerned if this is an older teen, Edge is geared for those 13 and under, it is not going to address issues faced by older teens.

 

[Rence]

The essential public purpose of marriage is to attach mothers and fathers to their children and one another for the benefit of the children and society.

Marriage is an issue of justice for the child.

Principles:

1. Children are ordinarily entitled to a relationship with their mothers and their fathers. Adoption is child centric and deals with exceptions to this principle. Adoption exists to give kids the parents they need not to give adults the kids they want. With same sex union’s marriage will become the vehichle for seperating a child from 1 of their biological parents.

Single people are allowed to adopt children, even by the Church.

1. The Law recognizes parenthood, but does not determine what it is. With Same sex unions, the state determines who the “parents” are - the state is reinventing parenthood. Courts are providing parental rights to “non-parents”. The scope of states power will be expanded greatly with same sex marriage. It will be required to interfere with the natural order of mother and father to something the state invents itself. Same sex union is an artificial creation of the state and has to be sustained by the state.

The state does not recognize religious marriages, such as the Sacramental marriage of Catholics. They only recognize civil marriage.

 

[Rence]

So you’re saying a person baptised as a Catholic stops being Catholic when he disagrees with a Church teaching or sins?

No, that’s not possible. Once a person is baptized Catholic, they are Catholic forever, according to the teachings of the Church, by virtue of Baptism itself, which leaves an indelible mark on the person. When a person disagrees with the Church, and they have already been Baptized Catholic, they are still Catholic (even if they formally defect), they are just not in communion with the Church, depending on the extent of their disagreement – which means they can’t partake in Communion until they are once again in communion with the Church. Once doesn’t cease to be Catholic just because someone else says they are no longer Catholic. If a Catholic doesn’t accept this teaching, they are are just as ‘guilty’ of not being in communion with the Church as any other cafeteria Catholic, they just accept and reject different plates on the buffet.

 

[Rence]

I don’t know what anyone else is saying but the truth is fairly simple to digest here. Marriage is not a political issue to be booted around by liberals and conservatives. Marriage is a Sacrament…just as Holy Communion and other Sacraments of the Church. This is not an issue for individual Catholics to decide whether to “believe” or not and maybe a good time to decide whether you are, or are not, a Catholic. Serious stuff…but pretty simple actually. Are you a Catholic when you stop believing in the sacraments?

I don’t think anyone here (at least anyone here who is Catholic) is denying the sacramental nature of marriage that the Church instituted. Same sex couples are not asking for the Church to marry them. They are talking about civil arrangements. The two are mutually exclusive, otherwise we wouldn’t have to get both.

I can understand someone being neutral on SSM, because it’s a secular and civil issue, not a Sacramental one. The issue for Sacramental marriage is closed, a done deal, a non-issue – according to the teachings of the Church, which never changed.

 

[sedonaman]

…The state does not recognize religious marriages, such as the Sacramental marriage of Catholics. They only recognize civil marriage.

Whaaaaat???!!! This can’t be true because you have to get a marriage license to get married in the Church. They are issued by the civil authorities. If it were true, there are a lot of illegitimate children running around, some of them are now in adulthood; and civil divorce would not be required in case of a break-up.

 

[sedonaman]

… Same sex couples are not asking for the Church to marry them.

Just you wait. They have been pushing the envelope since the Stonewall Riots of 1969. A more recent example is a lesbian couple who attended our parish. Nobody said anything until they wanted to be Eucharistic Ministers. So, what makes you think their demands will end with civil SS"M"?

They are talking about civil arrangements. The two are mutually exclusive, otherwise we wouldn’t have to get both. …

Since when do you have to get both? Would you care to elaborate on this?

 

[Tenofovir]

I don’t know what anyone else is saying but the truth is fairly simple to digest here. Marriage is not a political issue to be booted around by liberals and conservatives. Marriage is a Sacrament…just as Holy Communion and other Sacraments of the Church. This is not an issue for individual Catholics to decide whether to “believe” or not and maybe a good time to decide whether you are, or are not, a Catholic. Serious stuff…but pretty simple actually. Are you a Catholic when you stop believing in the sacraments?

Marriage can be civil and religious. Only the Church marriage is a sacrament. If you’re married in a civil ceremony the Catholic Church does not recognise that.

Not having an opinion on civil marriage is not the same as saying that religious marriage is not a sacrament.

Civil marriages aren’t real marriages for the Church. A couple still lives in sin when married by the State (or a different church).

 

[Tenofovir]

He can not be a Catholic in good standing and be pro-choice nor for homosexual marriage, he becomes a heretical Catholic or heretic for short who has excommunicated himself.

Incorrect.

What about Sin, doesn’t that stop us from communion?

Every time we commit a mortal sin and are unable to receive the Eucharist because of it, we have (in a certain sense) committed apostasy and separated ourselves from the Body of Christ. This is essentially what the Sacrament of Confession is for --to return in repentance to full communion with the Body (the Church), from which we have separated ourselves by committing mortal sin. And, in the very early days of the Church, this was much more apparent, since committing mortal sin merited automatic, formal excommunication from the Church. But, after A.D. 217, with the Papal relaxation of this original Apostolic discipline and the introduction of the principal of indulgences (literally, the sinless Body of Christ tolerating / “indulging” members who were non-saints, who still struggling to overcome repeated sins), there developed a distinction between true or essential membership in the Church (i.e., living in a state of grace and/or persistent loyalty to Catholic doctrines) and formal or institutional membership in the Church. Even if one is in a state of sin and serious apostasy, one remains an institutional member of the Church until one is either formally excommunicated or one publicly renounces their Catholic faith to embrace another faith (including atheism). In this, the Church of course continues to recognize the “mark” of one’s Baptism, and so always considers the apostate to justly be a member of the Church, albeit a fallen away one. This is why, if one ever wishes to return to the Church (even if they publicly renounced their institutional membership), they need only receive the Sacrament of Confession to be restored to full communion.

…

The Actus Formulus document by the Vatican says:

It remains clear, in any event, that the sacramental bond of belonging to the Body of Christ that is the Church,  conferred by the baptismal character, is an ontological and permanent bond which is not lost  by reason of any act or fact of defection.

davidmacd.com/catholic/how_to_stop_being_catholic.htm

 

[Tenofovir]

Whaaaaat???!!! This can’t be true because you have to get a marriage license to get married in the Church. They are issued by the civil authorities. If it were true, there are a lot of illegitimate children running around, some of them are now in adulthood; and civil divorce would not be required in case of a break-up.

It also depends on the country. State marriage and Religious marriage are two different things. For Church, only the Church marriage counts.

 

[sedonaman]

… For Church, only the Church marriage counts.

But that’s not what he said. He said,

…The state does not recognize religious marriages, such as the Sacramental marriage of Catholics. They only recognize civil marriage.

I was married in the Church, but did not get a civil ceremony. Sounds like I filed a lot of illegal “Married filing joint” tax returns.

 

[Tenofovir]

But that’s not what he said. He said,I was married in the Church, but did not get a civil ceremony. Sounds like I filed a lot of illegal “Married filing joint” tax returns.

Ok, I don’t know about USA.

Maybe in your country (or state) your state/federal government recognises the Church marriage but it’s never the other way around. Church marriage must be performed by a priest according to the Holy Sacrament of Marriage, unless the USA has some special concession from the Vatican.

 

[Rence]

Whaaaaat???!!! This can’t be true because you have to get a marriage license to get married in the Church. They are issued by the civil authorities. If it were true, there are a lot of illegitimate children running around, some of them are now in adulthood; and civil divorce would not be required in case of a break-up.

It is true. The Church does not recognize civil marriage for Catholics and Catholics are required to get married Sacramentally. In the US, one is required to get a marriage license first, and the priest signs the marriage license for the civil part, but the Sacramental part is what is required of the Church and has nothing to do with the priest signing the marriage license. The two are separate. When one gets married in Church, they are getting married Sacramentally by the priest, AND civilly when the priest signs the marriage license. The State does not recognize the Sacrament of marriage, and the Church doesn’t recognize the civil marriage, otherwise you’d be able to just go to ciy hall to get married and that would be the end. You can’t just get married in city hall, and stop there because the Church doesn’t recognize the civil part for Catholics. For those Catholics who get the marriage license signed by a justice of the peace, they have to go through Sacramental marriage as well.