What happens in Germany

[Constantin]

It seems like intercommunion with Lutherans
(or general Protestantism believing in the real presence) is one of the more important things on the agenda of some German bishops.
As if we did not have other problems!

• parts of the government currently trying to weaken or completely abolish laws prohibiting advertisement for abortions
• evaporation of faith on a large scale
• overage parishes, the youth no longer goes to church
• same-sex marriage allowed in general for almost a year now

Every time you look into a newspaper and read about the latest idea from some German bishop, it will make you shake your head.
I am increasingly fed up with things and beginning to consider to officially leave the Catholic church in Germany. It will save me a few hundred Euros per year and I more and more get the feeling that my money would be better invested elsewhere.
Probably a traditional Catholic community not financially connected to the Catholic church in Germany (you know what I mean) or perhaps even looking East.
Really, it is no use anymore, the battle was lost long ago…

 

[phil19034]

It seems like intercommunion with Lutherans
(or general Protestantism believing in the real presence) is one of the more important things on the agenda of some German bishops.
As if we did not have other problems!

• parts of the government currently trying to weaken or completely abolish laws prohibiting advertisement for abortions
• evaporation of faith on a large scale
• overage parishes, the youth no longer goes to church
• same-sex marriage allowed in general for almost a year now

Every time you look into a newspaper and read about the latest idea from some German bishop, it will make you shake your head.
I am increasingly fed up with things and beginning to consider to officially leave the Catholic church in Germany. It will save me a few hundred Euros per year and I more and more get the feeling that my money would be better invested elsewhere.
Probably a traditional Catholic community not financially connected to the Catholic church in Germany (you know what I mean) or perhaps even looking East.
Really, it is no use anymore, the battle was lost long ago…

Oh, please don’t say that. Be a voice from the inside. Write letters like this to your bishop and priest. Tell them that the lay faithful will not accept heresy.

 

[Constantin]

You only have so much energy. There are persons who are not given so much spiritual strength and rather need help from others (e.g. priests and bishops) to guide them along.
I am fully aware that non-ED traditional communities and Orthodoxy come with severe problems of their own, I have no illusion that the grass is greener on their side.
However, I am sure you don´t have to face this kind of issues.
If you were living in Germany, you would know that it is no use. Things have gone down the drain pretty much already. Who can afford fighting for a lost cause?

 

[phil19034]

You only have so much energy. There are persons who are not given so much spiritual strength and rather need help from others (e.g. priests and bishops) to guide them along.
I am fully aware that non-ED traditional communities and Orthodoxy come with severe problems of their own, I have no illusion that the grass is greener on their side.
However, I am sure you don´t have to face this kind of issues.
If you were living in Germany, you would know that it is no use. Things have gone down the drain pretty much already. Who can afford fighting for a lost cause?

I hear you. But that doesn’t mean you should commit the sin of schism. The heretics win if they chase out faithful Catholics.

This is a cross for you to bare. Please know you have others around the world praying for you.

 

[Constantin]

Again, I am not a faithful Catholic, more a lost sheep.
And it is not about the sin of schism:
If I were to leave the so-called “Catholic” church in Germany, I would do so because I no longer believe that it actually is the Catholic church of the Nicene creed.
I would then believe that the remainders of said one, holy, Catholic and apostolic chruch are to be found in some traditional communities independent of the official German Catholic church.
But in that process, one might well find that there is something to be said for Orthodoxy, that papal infallibility ex cathedra was not something believed by everybody at all times.

So if you leave the Catholic church in Germany, it may well mean coming home to the true church rather than committing the sin of schism.

 

[PJH_74]

There were about three Lutheran churches in the neighborhood of where I lived when I was growing up. At this point, two have shut down and the third one is being shared with an Anglican church. Meanwhile, the four Catholic churches in town are still going, though we might lose one of them due to an aging and dwindling base in that part of town. The other three have fairly large attendances.

There’s a difference in how Lutheran churches are setup. There is a bishop and so on that maintains some supervisory control, especially in recommending pastors and how the church Constitution is written. However any congregation has the full control to not accept any Pastor sent their way. The also essentially own their own congregation. They cannot be forced to shutdown by the Bishop and this leads to the wasting of resources on churches that should have closed long before. You also have to remember that there are many denominations of Lutherans, so the attendance is broken up by denomination, so this waste of resources is exasperated. Catholics benefit by the diocese having full control over the existence of a Parish resource wise.

I hate to be blunt and I agree the are a good number of vibrant Parishes out there, but according to Pew’s extensive and cyclical polling, Catholics are losing total members at a higher rate than mainline Protestants. Historically Black churches are holding their own. The only growth is in the Evangelical churches.

 

[Tis_Bearself]

We could lose a huge number of people in USA and still be bigger than all the Lutheran churches in USA put together.

There are only about 2 states that have significant numbers of Lutherans.

Most of the world’s Lutherans are concentrated in and around Germany. Unless they do some really big huge evangelization, their church is going to die out well before ours does. That doesn’t mean we can be lazy or unconcerned about our own numbers, but all of these Protestants who break away and then break into dozens of litlte subgroups of their own are often not worth trying to placate, except perhaps in a place like Germany where they make up a huge concentration of the country’s population. And outside Germany and the surrounding regions, nobody cares about them.

 

[phil19034]

but according to Pew’s extensive and cyclical polling, Catholics are losing total members at a higher rate than mainline Protestants.

I don’t know… I think that might not be entirely true. I’ve read contradicting information.

My GUESS is that politically liberal Catholics who leave the Catholic Church join groups like the Episcopalians, Lutherans, and other mainline groups (unless they go “none”). And politically conservative mainlines are leaving to join the Evangelicals (sometimes Catholic, but usually evangelical if the reason is purely political).

So my GUESS is that the number of mainline protestants leaving the mainline groups is being off-set by the number of Catholics who are becoming mainline. Also, protestants are also tending to jump around now. For example, if they hear of a Lutheran minister who has good homilies, there are many (not all) protestants who will attend that church.

This is similar to a kid who switches their favorite sports team when their favorite player switches to another team. Some of these protestants are the same way today… they will switch denominations / churches and attend where their favorite or new favorite preacher is.

 

[ProdglArchitect]

But in that process, one might well find that there is something to be said for Orthodoxy, that papal infallibility ex cathedra was not something believed by everybody at all times.

A lack of universal belief has no impact on whether or not something is true. Billions of people alive today believe that the child in the womb has no right and can be murdered with impunity. That doesn’t make it right.

 

[Constantin]

I see your point, and one could say a lot about this, but we would be getting off-topic.
What I was trying to say is that the failure of leaders in the German Catholic, up to bishop levels, leads to lack of trust in the Catholic church on a more general level.
Why are German bishops allowed to publish heretic stuff without being reproached by Rome in no unclear terms?
This leads to doubts and lets one consider: What is the true church?
Could it be that I (we) are on the wrong side of the schism?

 

[ProdglArchitect]

Why are German bishops allowed to publish heretic stuff without being reproached by Rome in no unclear terms?

I don’t know, and I find it exceedingly troubling as well.

This leads to doubts and lets one consider: What is the true church?
Could it be that I (we) are on the wrong side of the schism?

No matter the difficulties facing the Roman Church, Christ founded it upon Peter. Even at the original schism this was never questioned. It wasn’t until centuries afterward that the primacy of Peter’s position was questioned. The Early Church Fathers all attest to the centrality and headship of Peter’s seat. With all of this in mind, no, no matter how difficult things becomes, you cannot abandon The Church for Orthodoxy, because Christ didn’t found the Orthodox Churches, He found the Catholic Church.

 

[PJH_74]

I don’t know… I think that might not be entirely true. I’ve read contradicting information.

My GUESS is that politically liberal Catholics who leave the Catholic Church join groups like the Episcopalians, Lutherans, and other mainline group…

I apologize up front some of the Pew information I double checked with shows statistically the same decline. I know for sure I did see it, but you are right, most show some sort of decline. I think you are right that some of the leavers end up in Protestant churches; which ones I think depends more on their experience with Liturgy. There are many VERY to moderately conservative Lutheran churches out there, so I’d be careful of assuming it is mainly liberals.

 

[phil19034]

There are many VERY to moderately conservative Lutheran churches out there, so I’d be careful of assuming it is mainly liberals.

Well, not all Lutherans are considered “Mainline protestants”

According to Wikipedia (yes I know it’s Wikipedia), the only Lutheran group universally considered part of the “mainline Protestantism” is the Evangelical Lutheran Church in America. The rest of the Lutherans in American are not considered “mainline”

Mainline Protestant - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

 

[PJH_74]

Well, not all Lutherans are considered “Mainline protestants”

You have to understand that Lutherans are good at arguing with each other, especially on theology, and come from many origins. The basis of most is the state churches of Scandinavia, Germany, and the like. Many of them still can identify themselves with one or the other regardless of current denomination.

One that comes to mind is the relationship with the 2nd (Missouri Synod) and 3rd (Wisconsin Synod aka WELS). For some time in the 50s, 60s, 70s or so they were basically in communion with each other. Due to doctoral reasons they no longer are. The WELS churches can be so conservative they don’t even allow women to vote in congregational meeting and literally not be in any ministry that has direct over men. Basically they are to pray and otherwise remain silent:

1. The biblical principle of role relationship applies also to the gatherings of the church. All believers, men and women, will participate at gatherings of worship, prayer, Bible study, and service. The scriptural applications that a woman remain silent (1 Co 14:34) and that a woman should not teach a man (1 Ti 2:11,12) require that a woman refrain from participating in these gatherings in any way which involves authority over men.
2. In church assemblies the headship principle means that only men will cast votes when such votes exercise authority over men. Only men will do work that involves authority over men (1 Co 11:3-10; 14:33-35; 1 Ti 2:11,12).
3. All Christians, men and women, are to use their God-given gifts to serve each other (1 Pe 4:10). Women are encouraged to participate in offices and activities of the public ministry except where the work involves authority over men.

WELS statements of beliefs.

So maybe you can see the hubbub over trying to make some sort of distinction.

 

[Leferdion]

I have been living in Germany for 2 years now and I have to say, we catholics here still have a long way to go. At times I feel german catholics do not realy know what catholicism is all about. I hope I am wrong and I pray often for some sort of catholic revival, especially among the youth.

 

[phil19034]

I have been living in Germany for 2 years now and I have to say, we catholics here still have a long way to go. At times I feel german catholics do not realy know what catholicism is all about. I hope I am wrong and I pray often for some sort of catholic revival, especially among the youth.

Based on many of the German bishops say, I would assume you are 100% correct.

Question: is there a lot of focus over there on the New Evangelization? If not, any idea why not?

 

[Constantin]

As a cradle German Catholic of 30+ years, I have been observing things for a long while now.
There is little to no new evangelization going on.
The reason is that we are focusing on existing structures and people as well as collecting and distributing again church taxes.
I have little hope for Christianity let alone Catholicism on any larger scale in Germany.
Catholics will become a minority among many others.
We will have to hit rock bottom before anything will really change.

 

[Leferdion]

I will just keep praying. The situation here in Germany is sad, but I cannot loose hope, especially knowing how rich in grace the Catholic church is. Sacramental graces and intercession of Mary and the saints have walked me through otherwise impossible situations. God even gave us a wonderful Pope Benedict XVI, a German, despite the situation of Catholicism in Germany. So I will keep praying, God will have the final word.

 

[sororetfilia]

I have made it a personal challenge to talk more openly and actively about my faith. It is not a topic people usually talk about… you could say they avoid it “like the devil avoids Holy Water”, as we say. You don’t want to offend, of course, or ruin the atmosphere, so you keep it private.
Which may be the problem. But then, actions sometimes speak louder than words, so we should lead by example.

 

[PJH_74]

We’ll die off long after you because of numerical advantages is dangerous thinking. The PERCENTAGE of loss is about the same. Rates and total numbers are way different animals.