What I don't like about Catholics...as a Catholic.

[Nicea325]

Quote:
I am not speaking hypothetically. I see this every week. I am not speaking of the poor. Don’t play that ‘compassion’ card. I don’t care if your clothes come from Walmart or the parish free store. The poor wouldn’t be caught dead wearing what some of these Lexus owners wear.

I see it every week too. The difference between you and me, however, is that I get the person’s story before declaring them disrespectful. You pass judgment as the bible so blatantly said not to.

Pass judgment? Hardly. And I seriously doubt the person’s story is always a justifiable reason not to wear decent clothes for most Sundays? I call them excuses,not reasons. So poor cannot afford a decent pair of shoes,pants,etc, especially those with high-end cars? Please!

 

[Farsight001]

Boo-hoo. Going to Mass IS all about you, isn’t it? We should all just do whatever we want as long as we are there on Obligatory days, shouldn’t we? After all, we’ve done what’s required of us, we shouldn’t go above and beyond. God will be happy we give Him our minimal.

When I was in college and had the free time, I’d go to mass about 4 times a week. I go in my spare time in addition to the weekends when I can. I go for God and I have always gone for God. How dare you say otherwise. It’s like you’re going out of your way to try to insult me. God wants my worship, which I CAN’T GIVE TO HIM IF I CAN’T PAY ATTENTION. How are you not getting this? Is not worship in shorts and flip flops better than no worship at all? I give what I can.

Again, though, how do people stay focused at work in a monkey suit?

Don’t know. As I have already said 3 times - it may work for you, but it doesn’t work for everybody. Some people can work just fine in a suit, and they could pray just fine in a suit too. I, however, and many other people, cannot. Which probably has something to do with why I don’t wear a suit at work.

Yes, I know you do. I was once in your shoes regarding pride.

I’m not being proud. I’m not the one belittling others for not wearing what you want them to. I find nothing wrong with wearing a suit at church for those who can do so and still pay attention. I am finding nothing wrong with those who prefer to worship differently than I do. My problem from the get go has been that others are looking down on other people openly. That’s the definition of pride - why you see someone else not dressed as nicely as you and belittle them for it, stoking your own ego.

Point understood, but, this is an online forum. And it is a VERY justified list (though, it may not be in the correct folder).

So an online forum gives you an excuse to belittle others? Can’t do it in person, but it’s ok as long as you don’t have to look at their face? It’s not justified. It’s bullying. It’s sick and twisted and disgusting. People with depression attempt suicide over stuff like this. I’ve seen it with my own eyes.

Flip-flops and shorts. No. That’s NEVER appropriate. Stop with that. It may be all they have, but, it’s not appropriate in a church in America.

So all they have is flip flops and shorts, and that is never appropriate in a church, and therefore, by your reasoning, they should not be at church at all? No suit, no tie, no communion? Catholicism is to be an elitist club only for those who feel worthy to be in God’s presence and can afford to dress like they’re worthy? That is not the message of Christ. That is a prosperity gospel. It is heresy.

I believe God does say he’ll spew out the luke-warm ones.

Might want to rethink who the luke-warm ones are here.

It’s on them if they do not return to church.

Scripture has something quite different to say about that - that if anyone cause the “least of my followers” to sin, it would be better if a millstone was tied around their neck and they were thrown into the sea. You belittle them. You turn them off to their faith. YOU cause them to sin.

And also, the person who through in the brother arriving on a bike, that’s a non-sequetur and you know it. Blue jeans are not appropriate for Mass.

You mean they’re not appropriate for you. There is no rule, no doctrine, nothing laid out in the GIRM, that says blue jeans, or even flip flops, are not appropriate for Mass. It is your personal rule that you have personally (infallibly?) determined is truth. Don’t pretend for a moment that your opinion is backed by some official declaration of the Church. Even the opinions of priests are just that - opinions.

 

[Nicea325]

A good friend of mine, who I spent over a year working on, trying to get her to go to church, no longer does so because she overheard someone say exactly the same kind of thing you are saying now. And I knew many people who, when trying to find faith, were disgusted and turned away by the dirty looks they’d get entering a church.

A couple of the things on your list, like talking during mass, are basic matters of respect - if not for God, then at least for other people. But most of those things are signs of someone struggling with their faith, or have a budding faith. Being condescending and dismissive of them damages this. What does scripture say about seeds sewn on the ground? That they need good soil. And as like all seeds, they need water, and sunlight - nurturing. What you’re doing, simply by making this list and posting it, is essentially declaring to these budding “seeds” that they should stop bothering to grow.

Do you know me? No! Do work at my parish? I doubt it! Are these issues that need addressing instead of the same attitude you display as so many here? Yep! As stated,people get all offended instead of offering solutions. But you expect growth? Starts with the individual.

 

[Farsight001]

Pass judgment? Hardly. And I seriously doubt the person’s story is always a justifiable reason not to wear decent clothes for most Sundays? I call them excuses,not reasons. So poor cannot afford a decent pair of shoes,pants,etc, especially those with high-end cars? Please!

Of course it’s not always a justifiable reason not to wear decent clothes. But sometimes it IS. And that is the point. That you just don’t know the circumstances under which they are doing this. Assuming that they are doing it out of laziness or because they don’t care is assuming the worst. It’s like declaring all people are guilty until proven innocent instead of innocent until proven guilty. Have a little faith in people. Give them the benefit of the doubt. If nothing else, at least ask them why they’re wearing what they are before passing judgment on them.

Can you really criticize me for wearing raggedy jeans and flip flops like modern day ash and sackcloth out of shame for my sins?

 

[Nicea325]

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nicea325
And just because everyone wears them does not make it the norm.

Well, actually if everyone wears them, I think it does make it the norm.

According to who? The congregation? Since when has the church declared the laity can lay down the norms for a parish over the pastor’s/bishops authority?

 

[Nicea325]

Of course it’s not always a justifiable reason not to wear decent clothes. But sometimes it IS. And that is the point. That you just don’t know the circumstances under which they are doing this. Assuming that they are doing it out of laziness or because they don’t care is assuming the worst. It’s like declaring all people are guilty until proven innocent instead of innocent until proven guilty. Have a little faith in people. Give them the benefit of the doubt. If nothing else, at least ask them why they’re wearing what they are before passing judgment on them.

Can you really criticize me for wearing raggedy jeans and flip flops like modern day ash and sackcloth out of shame for my sins?

Okay sometimes it IS,but many times it IS NOT, the door swings both ways.
To be honest, the problem stems with today’s relaxed and “Me,myself, and I” attitude here in our country. I’ll say it again, people simply do not like to be told anything without getting all bent out-of-shape, plain and simple. I have yet to read ONE person here offer a single solution. Most do exactly what I suspected, get all on the defensive and find a billion and one reasons to justify the list I posted. That is truly sad.

 

[Farsight001]

Do you know me? No! Do work at my parish? I doubt it! Are these issues that need addressing instead of the same attitude you display as so many here? Yep! As stated,people get all offended instead of offering solutions. But you expect growth? Starts with the individual.

You have a problem with my attitude? You have a problem with the idea that all should be loved and cared for? That, as scripture says, our speech should always be “seasoned with salt”?

I would agree that, ideally, in a perfect world, everyone would be at church every weekend in a suit and tie, or a nice, full length dress. But this is not a perfect world. Not everyone functions the way you do. You can’t just have the attitude of “do it right, or get out.” That doesn’t help people. Build them up. Help them. Explain to them. Be patient with them.

You say people get all offended instead of offering solutions, but, in an ironic twist, I have offered several solutions while you have offered none. I have suggested talking to them and explaining it to them with love and charity. I have suggested not making whiny lists like this because it displays, at best, poor tact. I have suggested giving people the benefit of the doubt. I have suggested that, at least, people ask them why they are doing what they do. What are your suggestions here? Pretty much what amounts to “people should stop doing the stuff on my list”. How is that helpful? These are adults, not 3 year olds. You can’t just tell them “stop!”

 

[LittleSoldier]

Um… I guess I missed this when it was first posted.

But not knowing about the Sanctuary lamp… yeah, that’s an ‘atrocity’. If you are in the Church, and have been brought into the fullness of the church, either through receiving your Reconciliation and First Holy Communion or by being a convert, you have had ample opportunity to learn about the Sanctuary lamp.

If you are not of either of those two camps, others around you can see you and answer any and all questions, or point you to someone who can answer your questions. Some where along the way, any one who is old enough to be posting on these forums and who sees himself as a Catholic should know about the Sanctuary lamp and what it means.

If not, that is atrocious.

As for the sandals, I was thinking of this the other day: there are sandals… and there are sandals. I’m not good at posting images, but I’m in the mood to try.

Here are a few I found from Google Images, and I think that some would be ‘what? what’s the big deal about wearing sandals?’ and others will be very ‘Oh, well, that’s not appropriate to wear into any one’s worship service’

I didn’t know about the sanctuary lamp, although I know now. So I suppose I have been committing an atrocity even though I love God and being in church and receiving His body and blood during Communion.

It’s nice to know that I’m such a bad Catholic although I always suspected it. I wonder what other atrocities I’ve committed through ignorance. I’ve been told I might lead my priest into sin if I show up for Confession wearing “immodest” clothes (knees and elbows showing). Leading a celibate priest into sin has got to be an atrocity.

Maybe I should just keep my atrocity-committing self out of church and leave the good Catholics alone. I feel like I’m some sort of demon or something. I have a lot of nerve walking into the House of God!! And when I die I wonder if God will ask me about that sanctuary lamp because it’s obviously of such great importance and because I committed this atrocity maybe He will send me straight to the fires of hell, which is where demons belong.

 

[LittleSoldier]

No. Of course not. But I provided a few other explanations too. Why do you ignore those?

I see it every week too. The difference between you and me, however, is that I get the person’s story before declaring them disrespectful. You pass judgment as the bible so blatantly said not to.

I dress nicer for a job interview than I do for church too. But dressing up in a suit and tie is distracting to me. Flipflops, jeans, and a t-shirt, allow me to better concentrate on the mass. In a suit, I’m constantly distracted by the restrictive tie, cut of the pants, and uncomfortable shoes. What do you think God cares about more? That I dress nice or that I pay attention?

I’m going to be blunt - that’s a huge problem with the way you think. You don’t know what’s going through a person’s head. You don’t know their circumstances. You just know they’re not wearing clothes that are up to snub for you and that’s all you need to know. I can’t believe you don’t see what’s wrong with that. Have you never heard of “don’t judge a book by it’s cover”? That is EXACTLY what you are doing.

Right. And I, as with many MANY other people, can’t properly pay attention to the great Sacrifice of the Mass in a stuffy suit. My personal comfort allows me to better see and comprehend what is truly happening. And when I am feeling low and unworthy, as I have so often recently due to all sorts of **** going on in my life, going to mass in ragged clothing feels reflective of my shame - like I am saying that I am not pure and clean and not worthy of appearing so before God. It’s almost like the modern day equivalent of pouring ash on my head and wearing sackcloth to me and I feel 1000 times closer to God when I do it than when I put on a face and act like nothing is wrong.

Perhaps you don’t have that problem, and that’s fine for you. But other people are not the same as you and you cannot expect them to be.

Then have a little respect - for those who can’t afford better clothes, or whose faith is weak and doesn’t know any better, etc. For someone so demanding of respect, you sure don’t give out much yourself.

HOOAH!!!

 

[Farsight001]

Okay sometimes it IS,but many times it IS NOT, the door swings both ways.
To be honest, the problem stems with today’s relaxed and “Me,myself, and I” attitude here in our country. I’ll say it again, people simply do not like to be told anything without getting all bent out-of-shape, plain and simple. I have yet to read ONE person here offer a single solution. Most do exactly what I suspected, get all on the defensive and find a billion and one reasons to justify the list I posted. That is truly sad.

Please take no offense at this, but have you ever wondered that perhaps people are getting all bent out of shape when you try to tell them something because of the way you try to tell them something? I have little to no problem trying to tell people something (at least in real life. Largely impossible to do online no matter what you’re trying to do or teach if the person doesn’t start out receptive) People listen to me and take to heart what I have to say and it requires little effort on my part.

I certainly agree that there is a “Me, myself, and I” attitude in the U.S. I see it every time people sue someone instead of taking responsibility for their own actions. But it might not be as impossible as you think to effect a change in someone if you just sit down with them and talk to them calmly, clearly, and charitably.

 

[Nicea325]

You have a problem with my attitude? You have a problem with the idea that all should be loved and cared for? That, as scripture says, our speech should always be “seasoned with salt”?

I would agree that, ideally, in a perfect world, everyone would be at church every weekend in a suit and tie, or a nice, full length dress. But this is not a perfect world. Not everyone functions the way you do. You can’t just have the attitude of “do it right, or get out.” That doesn’t help people. Build them up. Help them. Explain to them. Be patient with them.

You say people get all offended instead of offering solutions, but, in an ironic twist, I have offered several solutions while you have offered none. I have suggested talking to them and explaining it to them with love and charity. I have suggested not making whiny lists like this because it displays, at best, poor tact. I have suggested giving people the benefit of the doubt. I have suggested that, at least, people ask them why they are doing what they do. What are your suggestions here? Pretty much what amounts to “people should stop doing the stuff on my list”. How is that helpful? These are adults, not 3 year olds. You can’t just tell them “stop!”

You offered one solution to one issue and I admire that.

Build them up. Help them. Explain to them. Be patient with them

And what do you think I have been doing for years at my parish? You also need to understand not all parishes are the same and most certainly not the community.

 

[Nicea325]

Please take no offense at this, but have you ever wondered that perhaps people are getting all bent out of shape when you try to tell them something because of the way you try to tell them something? I have little to no problem trying to tell people something (at least in real life. Largely impossible to do online no matter what you’re trying to do or teach if the person doesn’t start out receptive) People listen to me and take to heart what I have to say and it requires little effort on my part.

I certainly agree that there is a “Me, myself, and I” attitude in the U.S. I see it every time people sue someone instead of taking responsibility for their own actions. But it might not be as impossible as you think to effect a change in someone if you just sit down with them and talk to them calmly, clearly, and charitably.

Oh I hear you out and perfectly understand your position. However, don’t you think at times we cannot ‘sugar-coat’ the issues and have to say it exactly as it is?

 

[LittleSoldier]

Okay sometimes it IS,but many times it IS NOT, the door swings both ways.
To be honest, the problem stems with today’s relaxed and “Me,myself, and I” attitude here in our country. I’ll say it again, people simply do not like to be told anything without getting all bent out-of-shape, plain and simple. I have yet to read ONE person here offer a single solution. Most do exactly what I suspected, get all on the defensive and find a billion and one reasons to justify the list I posted. That is truly sad.

Not only have solutions been offered but as the horrible person who didn’t know about the sanctuary light, someone actually provided the solution and PMd me with an explanation.

In fact, it was more than one person. So please do not lump everyone into one group of people who “get all on the defensive and find a billion and one reasons to justify the list [you] posted.”

Oh wow, I supposed you now think I got defensive and now there are a billion and two reasons to justify the list you posted. My bad.

Also, your explanation of the (single) cause of today’s egocentric attitude here in our country (that is very strange - I was under the impression that CAF is worldwide. What is “our country?”) is a gross oversimplification of a complex sociological phenomenon that I don’t even see!!

Uh oh, now there are a billion and three reasons!!

I’d better stop.

 

[Nicea325]

Not only have solutions been offered but as the horrible person who didn’t know about the sanctuary light, someone actually provided the solution and PMd me with an explanation.

In fact, it was more than one person. So please do not lump everyone into one group of people who “get all on the defensive and find a billion and one reasons to justify the list [you] posted.”

Oh wow, I supposed you now think I got defensive and now there are a billion and two reasons to justify the list you posted. My bad.

Also, your explanation of the (single) cause of today’s egocentric attitude here in our country (that is very strange - I was under the impression that CAF is worldwide. What is “our country?”) is a gross oversimplification of a complex sociological phenomenon that I don’t even see!!

Uh oh, now there are a billion and three reasons!!

I’d better stop.

No it is okay. I understand and by the way, if I overlooked the solutions,my apologies.

 

[Apryl]

I see it every week too. The difference between you and me, however, is that I get the person’s story before declaring them disrespectful. You pass judgment as the bible so blatantly said not to.

I get people’s back stories, too.

I’ve had people to brag to me about what they wore and ‘I know some people don’t like it’ or ‘used to be you wouldn’t wear this, but now, you can wear whatever you want’.

These are the comments that I have heard, solicited and unsolicited, telling why they dress the way they do.

The comments, and the attire, give me the opportunity to make the call that their actions are actions I wouldn’t take part in because I see them as DISRESPECTFUL.

How do you get back stories?

 

[rinnie]

I think its time for everyone to take a TIME OUT in the TIME OUT chair and say a few prayers and ask for God to help us to be more merciful to others the way we want God to be pour out his Mercy upon us. Peace.

 

[Apryl]

People who don’t know any better and are weak in their faith often don’t understand when being corrected. They ask why it would matter and because they do not have a strong faith, and thus not a great proximity to God, cannot see that it would matter. But instead of getting down on them for it, as so many people here have, they need to be nurtured. If you see a sickly plant what do you do? Water it and get it sunlight. If you’re a bit nerdy, perhaps you talk to it (strange as it is, talking to a plant actually helps). You don’t kick the plant while its down. Like I said in my first post, I have a great friend who lost her newly budding faith because someone did that. It is counter productive to a person’s faith journey.

Let us be clear about something, as it relates to me (I can’t speak for any one else)

My posts on this topic are in this forum. People who participate in CAF, either because they have questions, they want to share ideas, or what ever their reasoning, they are the demographics that make up this forum.

I have not ever said to anyone anything about wearing sandals. I don’t think I’ve said anything to any one about any other attire (I did ask the sister of a woman if the woman in question had something to cover herself with, but since she didn’t, and I didn’t, I said nothing further).

My comments are in this forum. Not that I run up to any one and say, ‘You can’t come in here like that’.

Let’s make no mistake: I have said to others, ‘did they know they were going to church when they got up this morning?’ - that was at a Protestant church. It was my 97 yo cousin’s funeral, and I saw more club outfits!

This is a forum for people of, hopefully, like minds to share. Where those who may find themselves wondering, is it ok or not, to find answers.

 

[Apryl]

I didn’t know about the sanctuary lamp, although I know now. So I suppose I have been committing an atrocity even though I love God and being in church and receiving His body and blood during Communion.

The ‘atrocity’ wasn’t yours. It was in the catechesis you received.

You were the victim of the atrocity. Not the culprit!

 

[Apryl]

Stop judging and you will not be judged!! .

I know this is a bit off topic, but this is another famous misquote.

It’s not stop judging. We are all subject to judgement! No one is immune to judgement.

Try Matthew Chapter 7. It basically states that the same way you judge others is how you yourself will be judged.

NOT that you won’t be judged. Heck, it’s not even that you shouldn’t judge others, just be aware that the standards that you hold others to, you will be held to.

So, if you say of someone else, “I can’t believe that she went to that party not wearing any make up”, that’s saying that you don’t think that’s an OK thing to do. So, when the next party takes place and you are there with no make up, you can’t say, honestly, that, 'I didn’t think it was a big deal to not wear make up. You’ve established it as a a big deal.

Just thought I’d point that out.

The other things that set me off are: “I could care less”, for “I couldn’t care less”, or “Money is the root of all evil”, when it’s actually “the LOVE of money is the root of all evil”

 

[Apryl]

I didn’t know about the sanctuary lamp, although I know now. So I suppose I have been committing an atrocity even though I love God and being in church and receiving His body and blood during Communion

I just re-read what I posted that prompted this reply:

I can see how you could get the impression that I was saying that those who don’t know about the Lamp are the ones in the wrong.

But that’s was most certainly not what I meant. I didn’t even think enough of that to say, ‘I’m not pointing at those who don’t know’. I knew what I meant, I just could have been a lot clearer.

People in church should be aware of those who are new to the church and open up the beauty of The Church and The Mass to them. It should happen in your catechisis. It should happen as you fellowship with others in your parish or other parishes. It should come up in conversations. There is no way that you would know that you didn’t know. That’s for those around you who do know better to say something and address this issue.

That’s ATROCIOUS that it hasn’t happened. Not only in your case, but in all the other people who have become a part of the Church and don’t know things as simple as the purpose and meaning of the Sanctuary Lamp.