What if a Catholic sincerely believes that the Catholic Church is wrong about Masturbation?

[BobCatholic]

Well I have been getting conflicting answers from people. I thought someone said that sex with your spouse is a mortal sin if it’s not for the sake of procreation. I’m just trying to get some clarification. If that’s not the case, then I apoligize. I could have sworn that someone in one of these forums said that sex was only permissible when a married couple wanted to procreate. I thought it wasn’t allowed to be done for pleasure.

As I mentioned before, do your research too. The Catechism of the Catholic Church IS available and searchable online.

As I said before, simple logic would dictate that under such "Sex between a married couple is a mortal sin unless you are intending to procreate. " teaching, sex would become mandatory and would prohibit abstaining from sex for any reason.

The Church DOES have logic and reasoning on its teachings. You ust have to actually give her a fair hearing.

We are not fideists, we do believe in faith and reason being two wings which we can fly…

 

[kristie_m]

Sex between a married couple is a mortal sin unless you are intending to procreate. Yet, there are only some days during a given month when a woman is able to get pregnant. So I guess if a married couple has sex on a day that the woman is unable to get pregnant, that also is a mortal sin.

Where on earth were you catechised? This is nonsense. A married couple is not only permitted, but encouraged to engage in intercourse whenever the spirit moves them…the only real condition is that they remain OPEN TO LIFE. That doesn’t mean that they can’t have intercourse when the woman is not fertile, only that they should have a good reason for abstaining when she is.

 

[fix]

Does the Catholic Church really want and expect its members to believe that God is really so merciless, vengeful and mean?

Is this not a loaded question with the intention to stack the deck agsinst the Church? The real question you need to ask is this…Is Jesus the authority behind His Church? Are His teachings on faith and morals really His teachings or are we each the final arbiter on these matters?

 

[chain]

from my humble memory, the Bond of Marriage requires the openness to procreation - but does not actually require procreation (this is most apparent when people unable to procreate due to medical conditions or age get married). I think that if a spouse is not open to procreation it might be a indication of an invalid marriage.

As for God being cruel - He created us free from sin and without shame - we decided we wanted to be like God and asked for the knowledge of evil (and got it - corrupting the gifts that were given). Then he gave us an instruction guide on how to be joyful (we repeatedly ignored it), then he sent us his son to die so that we might live in him. Yet we continue to want be like God and determine what is good and evil ourselves. (Freedom is the right to choose between good and evil - not decide what is good and evil).

Then when we ignore God, do want we want, and experiance temporal pain and suffering it causes (not to mention the future eternal consequences) - we complain that God is cruel.

 

[edward_leblanc]

After reading messages ,about masturbation ,how silly are the ones with such funny responses .I am not going to get into an friendly discussion on this subject ,cause what goes on in a person ,personal life is between that person and God. 95% of people admit they masturbate the other 5% are liers. ha. i will not return to this site.as i sincerelly think it is not a good site ,to many foolish. arguments of ones belief .God Bless and my Our Blessed Mother of God encourage all to pray the Rosary. Edward ,

 

[edwest2]

Hope is the message of the Catholic Church. What did Jesus say to His disciples? Be perfect as your Father in heaven is perfect.

If you are weak, ask for strength. This is what is lacking for too many of us today. Faith and hope. 40 years ago, people around me were clearly trying to overcome, then, gradually, they began to slack off. Then they heard, “Hey man. If it feels good, do it.” As if getting permission from the outside world was all they needed.

Stick to Jesus. As Father John Riccardo said on Catholic Radio, Stick to Jesus. Don’t just give up or convince yourself it’s impossible. God is there for you.

Peace,
Ed

 

[AndyF]

JAW642:

What if a Catholic sincerely believes that the Catholi…

Then he’s in error. A discussion with a priest could possibly help.

AndyF

 

[excaliber]

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CATECHISM OF THE CATHOLIC CHURCH ( CCC )
2352: By masturbation is to be understood the deliberate stimulation of the genital organs in order to derive sexual pleasure. ‘Both the Magisterium of the Church, in the course of a constant tradition, and the moral sense of the faithful have been in no doubt and have firmly maintained that masturbation is an intrinsically and gravely disordered action.’ ‘The deliberate use of the sexual faculty, for whatever reason, outside of marriage is essentially contrary to its purpose.’ For here sexual pleasure is sought outside of ‘the sexual relationship which is demanded by the moral order and in which the total meaning of mutual self-giving and human procreation in the context of true love is achieved’."

“To form an equitable judgment about the subjects’ moral responsibility and to guide pastoral action, one must take into account the affective immaturity, force of acquired habit, conditions of anxiety or other psychological or social factors that lessen, if not even reduce to a minimum, moral culpability.” 4

The reference to the Magistgerium’s “constant tradition” of opposition to masturbation appears to conflict with Giovanni Cappelli’s findings that the first mention of masturbation in Church documents dated to the sixth century CE.

It would appear that the CCC condemns all pleasure derived from genital stimulations, whether masturbation is continued until orgasm or not.

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Here are my Questions:

What happens if a Catholic male has read and has full knowledge of the Catholic Church’s teaching under CCC-2352.

But in good conscience, he still honestly and truly believes that God is NOT GRAVELY offended by ALL sexual acts, and that He will NOT send every male to Hell, for the act of deliberately entertaining sexual thoughts, or for stroking his penis to full erection, (especially if he does not have an orgasm or ejaculates ).

In other words, in plain English, he believes that playing with his penis in moderation, is not gravely offensive to God, and is not equal to masturbation ( if it does not involve orgasm and ejaculation), and therefore is NOT a mortal sin. Perhaps he may consider the act as, at most, a venial sin.

Does this Catholic male have the right to exercise his own good conscience in his relationship to his God, OR is he nevertheless guilty of mortal sin?

If one believes he is nevertheless guilty of mortal sin, then what is the mortal sin? Playing with his penis ( even though he truly believes it is not a moral sin ), or his not believing in or agreeing with the Catholic Church on what constitutes real masturbation?

If he sincerely believes that he is in the state of Grace, and he receives the Eucharist, would God consider that decision a mortal sin or not?

There is a difference between a Catholic person abiding by the laws of the Catholic Church out of fear of going to Hell, OR, on the other hand, having a real and true belief that each and every law of the Catholic Church is correct and is a true representation of the behavior that God wants from all of his creatures on earth.

Can a Catholic person believe that the Catholic Church is wrong on a specific issue, and still remain Catholic, after exercising his own good conscience with his God? Or should he simply find another religion to follow, which coincides better with his own beliefs?

I wonder how many priests and Bishops actually believe that God will send young unmarried males to hell for simply stroking or playing with their erections from time to time in moderation without ejaculating, or for occasionally entertaining sexual thoughts? Am I correct in saying that this is what the Catholic Church teaches?

It seemed that the Catholic Church does not want any males to ever experience the pleasure of having an erection ( even without ejaculation ), until they get married, and then only during sexual intercourse with their wives. Except for the act of sexual intercourse, all males should simply forget that they have a penis and testicles attached to their bodies.

Does the Catholic Church really want and expect its members to believe that God is really so merciless, vengeful and mean?

From JAW642 on Wednesday June 10, 2009 at 08:45 PM

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I have not read all the posts…I have not read any of them so this could be repetitive.

The Catholic Church is correct, Masturbation is not the normal way to express sexuality. God did
not design male and female sex organs for that purpose.

If you have a problem with control
you MUST get married. That is the ONLY WAY to satisfy a need of that
sort.

If you canot control your self, you need a wife.Are you looking for a wife? If you are, what else can you
do? So why worry?

Unless you could get married, but you decided to masturbate instead…NOW THAT IS SERIOUS. and against all reason and teaching.

 

[NoWhereMan]

This issue really has to be taken with more seriousness.

Since I’m male, I’ll discuss this from a male perspective. Masturbation emasculates a person. What makes a real man, from the perspective of marriage? Someone who is capable of giving himself in love totally to his spouse. When a man whose habits include masturbation and pornography enters a marriage, he won’t know how to treat his wife. All he’s ever trained himself to do is seek his own pleasure, and he then views the sexual act as not intrinsically love-giving but as pleasure-giving. Masturbation, in that context, robs him of the ability to love a woman properly and deprives him of the ability to be a real man. It makes him to pursue not true love, but ever increasing levels of self-oriented pleasure. It doesn’t fit anywhere into God’s plan.

That doesn’t mean masturbation is an easy thing to avoid, especially when you’re a teenager like me. But how can I so blatantly choose to disobey such a loving God?

Make no mistake, most men do it for the pleasure involved, most often, they don`t even satisfy the wife, whether or not they watch porn or masturbate

 

[NoWhereMan]

Enough. You’re obviously holding something against the Church by trying to justify this behaviour. Why is that?

He is pretty much right about everything he said

 

[RachelKH]

During my fertile phases, as for many women, my desire for sex is very, very, very strong! We are obstaining due to my very serious health problems that have gotten increasingly worse with each of my 6 pregnancies. I often am very tempted to masturbate by my very real need for sexual release. I pray, get busy, keep in a public place, exercise, etc – I do whatever it takes to stop myself from doing the sin of masturbation and wait until my fertile time is over so intercourse can lovingly and safely (for my health) be mutually enjoyed. Yes, it is very, very, very difficult. But it is right. Not just men have to be strong in doing right.

 

[tjm190]

If you don’t believe that a sin is a “serious matter” than it’s not a mortal sin.

 

[Joegrane]

Re: " What if a Catholic sincerely believes…"
We need to be humble about such matters. People can be sincerely wrong. Who is more likely to be correct, me or the long list of saints in various cultures and various times who believed and taught what the Church teaches?

You might want to check out the Catechism of the Catholic Church (CCC) around #1855 on mortal sin. Is it not the Church’s teachers who have the responsibility to determine what is serious sin? Where in salvation history would you find support for the individual as the one who determines this?

CCC #1855 ff also explains what might be called the subjective aspects, the individual’s knowledge, amount of reflection and level of freedom when choosing the action. These can provide mitigating factors when considering culpability for a particular act.

As Christians we don’t want to just avoid serious sin, we want to be actively following Jesus and actively practicing virtue every moment of the day. Sure most of the 10 commandments start with the negative phrase, “thou shalt not.” However Jesus presents the beatitudes which start with, “Blessed/Happy are”. Just because we have not committed serious sin a particular day it does not mean we’ve actively lived a Christian lifestyle.

Therefore you not only should be considering whether is it sinful to masturbate, but even more importantly, is it the virtuous act of a follower of Christ. It is not that we have to prove to you that it is serious sin. You have to prove that it is actually virtuous! Otherwise you’ll be able to list any number of other virtuous actions you could be doing with your time.

Modern science is starting to show that sex addiction is a chemical addiction much like other chemical addictions. Dr. Judith Reisman is an excellent source for compelling information on this, especially around page 20 of her article, The Psychopharmacology of Pictorial Pornography available here. drjudithreisman.com/white_papers.html

While it has usually been taught that addiction is a mitigating factor when considering culpability, we should not use that to reduce our concern about the seriousness of such immoral activities. It can be tempting to think, “who is being harmed by looking at a little porn or by a little masturbation?” Science is beginning to show that addictive behaviors change the brain. Therefore we are firstly harming ourselves, not just spiritually but also our brain.

We need to look more deeply at root influences that can blind us to the truth. Are we using the release of the neurochemicals Dr. Reisman describes in an attempt to medicate psychological pain, or is it possible that we are using it to subconsciously self medicate a minor imbalance of neurochemicals as is described in the following articles. They might even help you to loose a few pounds as well as reduce excessive sexual appetite.
wellnessresources.com/weight/articles/obesity_and_the_pleasure_of_food/

Low levels of dopamine in your brain will cause you to eat more food so that you feel good. … This mechanism is at the root of all types of addiction and related behaviors .

amenclinics.com/blog/1172/hormones-and-addictions-a-landmark-find/

Florida Detox and Wellness Institute in Tarpon Springs, Florida, has successfully treated over 5000 addicted patients since our inception in 1998… we have successfully proven that over ninety percent of addicted patients self-medicate with drugs and alcohol in their attempt to balance their brain chemistry and “feel more normal”.

 

[LilyM]

If you don’t believe that a sin is a “serious matter” than it’s not a mortal sin.

Really?

Put it this way. Jesus says to you ‘thou shalt not kill’ and you say to Him ‘sorry, Lord, I just don’t believe you when you say that murder is a serious sin’ and you think your lack of belief will save you? No.

If once He teaches that something is so, then as someone who accepts His authority, you have all the knowledge you need about it, and therefore you are in grave peril if you consciously do any act that He has condemned as being a serious matter.

Christ teaches us truth, and that through the Church. We know this is so because He gave it the power to bind and loose - and further said to the Apostles (and through them to their successors) ‘who hears you hears Me, who rejects you rejects Me’.

So when the CHURCH says something is so, such as that masturbation is grave matter, then again, as Catholics who accept its Christ-given teaching authority, we have all the knowledge we need, just as if Christ were speaking to us personally about the matter.

 

[o_mlly]

In Catholic thinking, we are required to think the best we can regarding the interior disposition suggested by the exterior actions of an individual.

The best we can think of one who adamantly and with finality rejects the teaching on the intrinsic evil of masturbation is that the person is invincibly ignorant. We continue to pray that the Holy Spirit will move the person to the truth.

Peace,
O’Malley

 

[tjm190]

Really?

Put it this way. Jesus says to you ‘thou shalt not kill’ and you say to Him ‘sorry, Lord, I just don’t believe you when you say that murder is a serious sin’ and you think your lack of belief will save you? No.

If once He teaches that something is so, then as someone who accepts His authority, you have all the knowledge you need about it, and therefore you are in grave peril if you consciously do any act that He has condemned as being a serious matter.

Christ teaches us truth, and that through the Church. We know this is so because He gave it the power to bind and loose - and further said to the Apostles (and through them to their successors) ‘who hears you hears Me, who rejects you rejects Me’.

So when the CHURCH says something is so, such as that masturbation is grave matter, then again, as Catholics who accept its Christ-given teaching authority, we have all the knowledge we need, just as if Christ were speaking to us personally about the matter.

I’m surprised I’m running into any resistance here, given that I’m using the Catholic church’s definition of mortal sin, and since the heart of the “masturbation is a mortal sin argument” is that we should accept church teaching without question.

 

[LilyM]

I’m surprised I’m running into any resistance here, given that I’m using the Catholic church’s definition of mortal sin, and since the heart of the “masturbation is a mortal sin argument” is that we should accept church teaching without question.

What you said was that if a person believes that something is not a mortal sin that makes it not so for them. Again, rot.

Church teaching on mortal sin and the preconditions for it is summarised in the following Catechism passages:

"1857 For a sin to be mortal, three conditions must together be met: "Mortal sin is sin whose object is grave matter and which is also committed with full knowledge and deliberate consent."131

1858 Grave matter is specified by the Ten Commandments, corresponding to the answer of Jesus to the rich young man: "Do not kill, Do not commit adultery, Do not steal, Do not bear false witness, Do not defraud, Honor your father and your mother."132 The gravity of sins is more or less great: murder is graver than theft. One must also take into account who is wronged: violence against parents is in itself graver than violence against a stranger.

1859 Mortal sin requires full knowledge and complete consent. It presupposes knowledge of the sinful character of the act, of its opposition to God’s law. It also implies a consent sufficiently deliberate to be a personal choice. Feigned ignorance and hardness of heart133 do not diminish, but rather increase, the voluntary character of a sin. "

Where in there does it say that a Catholic’s BELIEF (belief having an emotional as well as intellectual component) about anything matters in the slightest if that belief is contrary to what they know of Church teaching?

Knowledge comes from Christ’s word, as passed on to us through Himself and His church. Once the Church tells you something and you hear the Church, believing it or not, you being Catholic then know that thing and are answerable for your sins if you choose to reject that teaching by choosing not to believe the Church. Christ said ‘who HEARS you hears me’. Hearing is enough - for a Catholic.

The Catechism mentions factors that can reduce one’s culpability for the sin of masturbation - choosing to reject Church teaching that it’s grave matter, by claiming that one ‘doesn’t believe’ in that teaching, assuming one is Catholic and has been informed of Church teaching that it IS grave matter, is NOT one of them.

 

[tjm190]

What you said was that if a person believes that something is not a mortal sin that makes it not so for them. Again, rot.

Church teaching on mortal sin and the preconditions for it is summarised in the following Catechism passages:

"1857 For a sin to be mortal, three conditions must together be met: "Mortal sin is sin whose object is grave matter and which is also committed with full knowledge and deliberate consent."131

1858 Grave matter is specified by the Ten Commandments, corresponding to the answer of Jesus to the rich young man: "Do not kill, Do not commit adultery, Do not steal, Do not bear false witness, Do not defraud, Honor your father and your mother."132 The gravity of sins is more or less great: murder is graver than theft. One must also take into account who is wronged: violence against parents is in itself graver than violence against a stranger.

1859 Mortal sin requires full knowledge and complete consent. It presupposes knowledge of the sinful character of the act, of its opposition to God’s law. It also implies a consent sufficiently deliberate to be a personal choice. Feigned ignorance and hardness of heart133 do not diminish, but rather increase, the voluntary character of a sin. "

Where in there does it say that a Catholic’s BELIEF (belief having an emotional as well as intellectual component) about anything matters in the slightest if that belief is contrary to what they know of Church teaching?

Knowledge comes from Christ’s word, as passed on to us through Himself and His church. Once the Church tells you something and you hear the Church, believing it or not, you being Catholic then know that thing and are answerable for your sins if you choose to reject that teaching by choosing not to believe the Church. Christ said ‘who HEARS you hears me’. Hearing is enough - for a Catholic.

The Catechism mentions factors that can reduce one’s culpability for the sin of masturbation - choosing to reject Church teaching that it’s grave matter, by claiming that one ‘doesn’t believe’ in that teaching, assuming one is Catholic and has been informed of Church teaching that it IS grave matter, is NOT one of them.

How could a person endowed with the ability to determine right from wrong possibly have full knowledge that something is sinful but in his heart not believe it’s a sin?

 

[wanner47]

How could a person endowed with the ability to determine right from wrong possibly have full knowledge that something is sinful but in his heart not believe it’s a sin?

Perhaps because his “heart” is leading him astray.

How does one know if one’s heart is infallible?

 

[Joegrane]

What do you mean by “heart?” I don’t think you will find the word used very often in church teachings because it is poorly defined. You will see “intellect” and “will” used frequently.