What if a Catholic sincerely believes that the Catholic Church is wrong about Masturbation?

[Bataar]

A lot of us Catholics suffer from this problem. I say suffer because it often leads to addiction. Nothing worthwhile is easy, but solving this addiction problem by bringing it to Christ is the answer. And yes, you will likely stumble along the way, but I often see more encouragement given to smokers who are trying to quit the habit. I encourage everyone reading this to turn to Christ.

God gave all of us a legitimate outlet for our sexuality in marriage. However, for those of us who are single, we are called to be holy. Allow God to heal you in this area. Pray for His help.

I’ve watched as too many Catholics became distracted by the world as it increasingly portrays the separation of love from sex. It pains me to watch two attractive people on TV who have just had “just sex,” as if they just went to the rest room. That’s why I watch maybe 30 minutes a week, if that. But this change of attitude didn’t happen overnight. I watched the Body of Christ slowly poisoned over the last 40 years.

I encourage all of you.

Peace,
Ed

Unfortunately, there really aren’t any options for single people with very high sex drives. Since I very much doubt I’ll ever be married, I have no moral means to release it. It’d be nice if at least praying about it would help.

 

[phoenix3212]

Unfortunately, there really aren’t any options for single people with very high sex drives. Since I very much doubt I’ll ever be married, I have no moral means to release it. It’d be nice if at least praying about it would help.

Well, there’s always exercise and busying oneself with other things. I feel your pain; this habit is a very hard one to quit.

 

[Chaldean_Rite]

What if a Catholic sincerely believes that the Catholic Church is wrong about Masturbation?

it means that:

1. you are wrong - the Church is not
2. your conscious is malformed in this matter
3. you should pray for an increase of faith

 

[JJC42482]

So, according to the Catholic Church, anyone who masturbates, has sexual intercourse, oral sex, anal sex, uses contraception, or even so much as lusts, is going to hell, unless of course they go to confession and are truly sorry for their actions, right?

Studies have shown that between 90% and 95% of men masturbate some time in their life, and about 65% to 75% of women do the same. The percentage of them who are Catholic and go to confession and are actually sorry and do not masturbate ever again is probably 5% if that.

Now let’s talk about sex. I would venture to say that 99% of the human population have sex at some point in their life. Now let’s count all the people who have pre-marital sex in this day and age. A study a few years ago polled 40,000 Americans and asked them about pre-marital sex. By age 20, 75% of them had pre-marital sex; by age 30, 90% of them had pre-marital sex. Nearly 60% of all born-again Christians said that pre-marital sex was okay.

Now let’s talk about the homosexuals, bisexuals, transexuals and anyone who ever experimented with someone of the same sex. That has to be at least 30%, considering that the percentage of openly homosexual people is 10%. You have to figure that at least 20% more are closet homosexuals, bisexuals, or experiment at some time in their life. The percentage is most definitely higher, especially in this day and age, but let’s just keep it at 30%.

Now let’s talk about those who have sex with their married spouse, without the intention of procreating. Add that percentage into the equation as well.

And that only covers the topic of sex. Let’s talk about those who don’t go to church every Sunday. 75% to 80% of Catholics in America don’t attend church on a weekly basis.

Now let’s figure in the people who get divorced and are Catholic, and the people who believe abortion is okay, and those who committ adultery. Then figure in the percentage of Catholics who actually go to confession. Any article you read states the fact that confession has all but disappeared in the Catholic Church. Some polls suggest that only 10% of Catholics go to confession once a year, which is now the new standard of confession.

Let’s not forget about pride, gluttony, envy, sloth, greed. Oh but wait, the Catholic Church recently “updated” the 7 Deadly Sins. Yup. The Apostolic Penitentiary, one of the Vatican’s most secretive departments, which fixes the punishments and indulgences handed down to sinners, last year updated its list of deadly sins to include more modern ones. The revised list included seven modern sins it said were becoming prevalent during an era of “unstoppable globalisation”. These included: genetic modification, experiments on the person, environmental pollution, taking or selling illegal drugs, social injustice, causing poverty and financial greed.

The Catholic Church changing the rules?? What else is new?? Like most of the recent changes in the church, the shift occurred in the wake of the Vatican II reforms. The program of renewal for the church that emerged from the Vatican II council said almost nothing about penance and reconciliation.

The church’s emphasis after Vatican II seemed to be less on guilt and damnation and more on love and forgiveness. The sacrament was given its current kinder, gentler name —reconciliation. Which seemed to reduce the stakes: If priests rarely talked about going to hell anymore, why bother confessing to them? To the extent that confession seemed necessary, the church’s post-Vatican II efforts to empower the people in the pews left some Catholics figuring that they could confess their sins directly to God in prayer. At the same time, baby boomers who had been educated in the arcane legalisms of Catholic transgression —i s eating meat on Friday a mortal or venial sin? — found themselves as adults thinking less about whether they were breaking the rules and more about their attitudes, intentions, and ideas about how to live a Christian life.

And what about the Jews, Muslims, Hindus, Buddists, non-Catholic Christians, Atheists, Agnostics, etc. I guess none of them even have a chance to go to Heaven since they don’t even believe in Catholicism.

So it looks like very very few people are going to Heaven or even Purgatory, according to the Catholic Church. Heaven would be a lonely place if all this is true.

 

[phoenix3212]

So, according to the Catholic Church, anyone who masturbates, has sexual intercourse, oral sex, anal sex, uses contraception, or even so much as lusts, is going to hell, unless of course they go to confession and are truly sorry for their actions, right?

Studies have shown that between 90% and 95% of men masturbate some time in their life, and about 65% to 75% of women do the same. The percentage of them who are Catholic and go to confession and are actually sorry and do not masturbate ever again is probably 5% if that.

Now let’s talk about sex. I would venture to say that 99% of the human population have sex at some point in their life. Now let’s count all the people who have pre-marital sex in this day and age. A study a few years ago polled 40,000 Americans and asked them about pre-marital sex. By age 20, 75% of them had pre-marital sex; by age 30, 90% of them had pre-marital sex. Nearly 60% of all born-again Christians said that pre-marital sex was okay.

Now let’s talk about the homosexuals, bisexuals, transexuals and anyone who ever experimented with someone of the same sex. That has to be at least 30%, considering that the percentage of openly homosexual people is 10%. You have to figure that at least 20% more are closet homosexuals, bisexuals, or experiment at some time in their life. The percentage is most definitely higher, especially in this day and age, but let’s just keep it at 30%.

Now let’s talk about those who have sex with their married spouse, without the intention of procreating. Add that percentage into the equation as well.

And that only covers the topic of sex. Let’s talk about those who don’t go to church every Sunday. 75% to 80% of Catholics in America don’t attend church on a weekly basis.

Now let’s figure in the people who get divorced and are Catholic, and the people who believe abortion is okay, and those who committ adultery. Then figure in the percentage of Catholics who actually go to confession. Any article you read states the fact that confession has all but disappeared in the Catholic Church. Some polls suggest that only 10% of Catholics go to confession once a year, which is now the new standard of confession.

Let’s not forget about pride, gluttony, envy, sloth, greed. Oh but wait, the Catholic Church recently “updated” the 7 Deadly Sins. Yup. The Apostolic Penitentiary, one of the Vatican’s most secretive departments, which fixes the punishments and indulgences handed down to sinners, last year updated its list of deadly sins to include more modern ones. The revised list included seven modern sins it said were becoming prevalent during an era of “unstoppable globalisation”. These included: genetic modification, experiments on the person, environmental pollution, taking or selling illegal drugs, social injustice, causing poverty and financial greed.

The Catholic Church changing the rules?? What else is new?? Like most of the recent changes in the church, the shift occurred in the wake of the Vatican II reforms. The program of renewal for the church that emerged from the Vatican II council said almost nothing about penance and reconciliation.

The church’s emphasis after Vatican II seemed to be less on guilt and damnation and more on love and forgiveness. The sacrament was given its current kinder, gentler name —reconciliation. Which seemed to reduce the stakes: If priests rarely talked about going to hell anymore, why bother confessing to them? To the extent that confession seemed necessary, the church’s post-Vatican II efforts to empower the people in the pews left some Catholics figuring that they could confess their sins directly to God in prayer. At the same time, baby boomers who had been educated in the arcane legalisms of Catholic transgression —i s eating meat on Friday a mortal or venial sin? — found themselves as adults thinking less about whether they were breaking the rules and more about their attitudes, intentions, and ideas about how to live a Christian life.

And what about the Jews, Muslims, Hindus, Buddists, non-Catholic Christians, Atheists, Agnostics, etc. I guess none of them even have a chance to go to Heaven since they don’t even believe in Catholicism.

So it looks like very very few people are going to Heaven or even Purgatory, according to the Catholic Church. Heaven would be a lonely place if all this is true.

Enough. You’re obviously holding something against the Church by trying to justify this behaviour. Why is that?

 

[hawkeye]

He that is not with the Catholic Church is against it, Jesus established the Church, those that are not with Jesus are against His Keyholder…the Pope

 

[JJC42482]

Enough. You’re obviously holding something against the Church by trying to justify this behaviour. Why is that?

I’m not justifying anything. I was asking a question. Seems like my answer was accurate since no one will say otherwise. Can any of you honestly say you are free of all mortal sin, whether it be sexual or something else??

According to Catholic teachings, very few people on Earth will actually ever see Heaven. I’m just trying to wrap my head around that fact. It’s very disturbing to me.

And why can the Catholic Church just change the rules whenever they feel like it? Can anyone answer that question? Or will you all just beat around the bush like you did with my previous post?

 

[phoenix3212]

I’m not justifying anything. I was asking a question. Seems like my answer was accurate since no one will say otherwise. Can any of you honestly say you are free of all mortal sin, whether it be sexual or something else??

According to Catholic teachings, very few people on Earth will actually ever see Heaven. I’m just trying to wrap my head around that fact. It’s very disturbing to me.

And why can the Catholic Church just change the rules whenever they feel like it? Can anyone answer that question? Or will you all just beat around the bush like you did with my previous post?

It can’t. The Church’s emphasis may change, its disciplines (customs) may change, but its doctrines and dogmas never can. They can evolve and deepen, sure, but they cannot change.

Of course, many people may make it to heaven under invincible ignorance. We entrust all people to God’s mercy and hopes he chooses to save them. See: newadvent.org/cathen/07648a.htm

Under certain circumstances, masturbation may be mitigated to a venial sin; if used to precede intercourse between a married couple, it may not be a sin at all. However, generally it is held to be a mortal sin.

 

[WarriorAngel]

It’s a sin of lust.
There is no love involved in that act. Its purely self centered and lustful.

There is no good that comes from an act alone. It is centered around lust and self interest.

Sex is for procreation, of course it is enjoyed or no one would want to attempt to procreate. Still, it’s not meant for self satisfaction alone.

 

[WarriorAngel]

I’m not justifying anything. I was asking a question. Seems like my answer was accurate since no one will say otherwise. Can any of you honestly say you are free of all mortal sin, whether it be sexual or something else??

According to Catholic teachings, very few people on Earth will actually ever see Heaven. I’m just trying to wrap my head around that fact. It’s very disturbing to me.

And why can the Catholic Church just change the rules whenever they feel like it? Can anyone answer that question? Or will you all just beat around the bush like you did with my previous post?

For something to be a mortal sin, one must know it is and have intent to do it anyway.

 

[Chaldean_Rite]

For something to be a mortal sin, one must know it is and have intent to do it anyway.

Catechism of the Catholic Church **1859 **Mortal sin requires full knowledge and complete consent. It presupposes knowledge of the sinful character of the act, of its opposition to God’s law. It also implies a consent sufficiently deliberate to be a personal choice. Feigned ignorance and hardness of heart do not diminish, but rather increase, the voluntary character of a sin.

 

[JJC42482]

It can’t. The Church’s emphasis may change, its disciplines (customs) may change, but its doctrines and dogmas never can. They can evolve and deepen, sure, but they cannot change.

Of course, many people may make it to heaven under invincible ignorance. We entrust all people to God’s mercy and hopes he chooses to save them. See: newadvent.org/cathen/07648a.htm

Under certain circumstances, masturbation may be mitigated to a venial sin; if used to precede intercourse between a married couple, it may not be a sin at all. However, generally it is held to be a mortal sin.

Sex between a married couple is a mortal sin unless you are intending to procreate. Yet, there are only some days during a given month when a woman is able to get pregnant. So I guess if a married couple has sex on a day that the woman is unable to get pregnant, that also is a mortal sin.

 

[Chaldean_Rite]

Sex between a married couple is a mortal sin unless you are intending to procreate. Yet, there are only some days during a given month when a woman is able to get pregnant. So I guess if a married couple has sex on a day that the woman is unable to get pregnant, that also is a mortal sin.

your representation of catholic teaching is so laughably ignorant, I suggest stop talking actually to save face.

You do know that come your personal judgment you are going to have to account for all of this right? So whether or not you are a real catholic or just faking it, be mindful of what you say.

 

[phoenix3212]

Sex between a married couple is a mortal sin unless you are intending to procreate. Yet, there are only some days during a given month when a woman is able to get pregnant. So I guess if a married couple has sex on a day that the woman is unable to get pregnant, that also is a mortal sin.

Actually, NFP is acceptable to space out children (but the intention to have children in time must exist). Stop misrepresenting the Church.

Masturbation is a sin primarily because it feeds lust. It only seeks to satisfy selfish pleasure, and devalues the people within such lustful thoughts. It makes a person a slave to his own desires. Why do you seek to justify it?

 

[JJC42482]

your representation of catholic teaching is so laughably ignorant, I suggest stop talking actually to save face.

You do know that come your personal judgment you are going to have to account for all of this right? So whether or not you are a real catholic or just faking it, be mindful of what you say.

How am I misrepresenting the church?? I thought unless you are in a marriage and planning to procreate, that sex is a mortal sin? Sex for pleasure is no different than masturbating for pleasure. It’s about your personal pleasure. I’m trying to understand what is acceptable and what isn’t.

Don’t accuse me of misrepresenting the church. God knows my intentions, you don’t. Leave the judging to him, thanks.

 

[phoenix3212]

How am I misrepresenting the church?? I thought unless you are in a marriage and planning to procreate, that sex is a mortal sin? Sex for pleasure is no different than masturbating for pleasure. It’s about your personal pleasure. I’m trying to understand what is acceptable and what isn’t.

Don’t accuse me of misrepresenting the church. God knows my intentions, you don’t. Leave the judging to him, thanks.

See this: forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?t=341632

Being open to procreation doesn’t necessarily mean that you intent every use of the sexual faculty to end up with a child. Look at it this way: with NFP (natural family planning) which is approved by the Church, you are utilizing what has already been ordained by God. You’re being pro-creation. A Catholic couple may use NFP to space out children with the understanding that they will have children eventually. This is opposed to contraception, which basically degrades everyone involved by making fertility look like a disease that needs treatment from drugs and such.

Keep in mind that marriage is a covenant. Therefore, as with all covenants, it has an act whereby it is renewed. Using the sexual faculties outside this act is therefore impermissible and akin to, well, spitting the Eucharist on the ground.

Sex for pleasure is fine, as long as no contraceptives are used, and as long as it is self-giving. This is why masturbation can never be permissible, because it is not intrinsically self-giving and is only ordered towards the self; seeking exclusively one’s own pleasure with faculties that are designed to give of the self is immoral.

 

[BobCatholic]

My problem of doubt is either with the Catholic Church, OR with Who God really is, and I pray to God that my problem is with the Catholic Church.

Actually, it is both.

It should be neither.

From what I have seen, you have misrepresented the Church’s teachings on sexual ethics. So rather than yell at you for that, I’ll just clarify what is going on.

Do you accept that masturbation is a mortal sin, solely because the Catholic Church has the authority to make it a mortal sin?

The Catholic Church does not make mortal sins. God declared what they were, using principles. The Church applies those principles.

Example: If it is wrong to commit adultery, what does that say about, say prostitution? Obviously, that’s covered because the prostitute is not your wife. If Jesus says to look at a woman with lust in your heart is wrong, what does that say about pornography? What does it say about dressing provocatively?

What if it turned out that after many, many prolonged medical studies, it was shown that masturbation indisputably does significantly reduce the risk of prostate cancer, and that NOT masturbating really does significantly increase the risk of prostate cancer?

Science without ethics = Dr. Mengele

I don’t think we want to go there.

Would you feel that the Catholic Church has the authority to make that decree on this issue?

Jesus says this about the Church:
Matthew 18:18
Verily I say unto you, Whatsoever ye shall bind on earth shall be bound in heaven: and whatsoever ye shall loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven.
and to the Pope in particular:
Matthew 16:19
And I will give unto thee the keys of the kingdom of heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt bind on earth shall be bound in heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven.
Luke 10:16
“He who listens to you listens to me; he who rejects you rejects me; but he who rejects me rejects him who sent me.”

Not only that, the Church is so close and intimate with Jesus, that he says this to Paul:
Acts 9:4
He (Paul) fell to the ground and heard a voice say to him, “Saul, Saul, why do you persecute me?”

Who did he persecute?

Acts 22:4
I persecuted the followers of this Way to their death, arresting both men and women and throwing them into prison,

Jesus takes it so PERSONALLY that persecuting the Church is the same as persecuting him!

I don’t want to go there!

Studies have shown that between 90% and 95% of men masturbate some time in their life, and about 65% to 75% of women do the same. The percentage of them who are Catholic and go to confession and are actually sorry and do not masturbate ever again is probably 5% if that.

Actually God says that nearly 100% of humanity are sinners.

Romans 3:23
for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God,

HOWEVER all is not lost! Forgiveness is available, grace is available. YOU HAVE TO ACCEPT IT.

I can tell you my personal testimony how I overcame masturbation, pornography, and other sexual sins. Nothing special about me, I’m just an ordinary guy who permitted the grace of God to work in his life to overcome the sins. I give all the credit to God and his grace.

Nothing’s stopping you from going down this road. YES it is frustrating to commit the same sins over and over. It humbles us to see how we are such failures by ourselves. God does this so we can see how much we utterly depend on Him!

The revised list included seven modern sins it said were becoming prevalent during an era of “unstoppable globalisation”. These included: genetic modification, experiments on the person, environmental pollution, taking or selling illegal drugs, social injustice, causing poverty and financial greed.

The Church acts on principles. Genetic modification, experiments on the person, environmental pollution both violate the principle that people are not to be treated as objects. environmental pollution, taking or selling illegal drugs, violate the principle that we are not to hurt other people.
social injustice, - violates the principle that we are to love our neighbor.
causing poverty and financial greed - Greed is one of the seven deadly sins, this is just explaining that those two count. And THEY DO COUNT! If you want to cause someone to be poor so you can be rich, that’s greed.

And just because the Church just got around to explaining this, doesn’t mean they were not sins in the first place. That’s like saying that gravity didn’t exist until Issac Newton discovered it. (“dude! we’re floating around, hey Newton! invent the law of gravity so we don’t float into space!”)

 

[BobCatholic]

So it looks like very very few people are going to Heaven or even Purgatory, according to the Catholic Church.

According to Jesus:
Matthew 7:13-14
"Enter through the narrow gate. For wide is the gate and broad is the road that leads to destruction, and many enter through it. But small is the gate and narrow the road that leads to life, and only a few find it.

Again, don’t lose hope. If we depend on ourselves to get to heaven, we are guaranteed to fail. If we depend on the grace of God (he gives it to us through the sacraments) - we stand a chance of running the race and making it to heaven.

However, we must cooperate with God.

God, Who created us without our consent, will not save us without our consent. - St. Augustine.

Can any of you honestly say you are free of all mortal sin, whether it be sexual or something else??

Currently? I believe I’m in the state of grace, because I went to confession on Friday. I go regularly. It is like taking a spiritual shower, gets rid of the filth from the soul.

Of course, this can change, and if it does, I go to confession.

And why can the Catholic Church just change the rules whenever they feel like it?

What rules? Disciplines? Those can be changed if the Churchs deems it prudent. Morals? Those don’t change. Dogmas? Those don’t change.

Sex between a married couple is a mortal sin unless you are intending to procreate.

Incorrect. Citation please.

Using this reasoning, this means that married couples must have sex every day during their marriage. Even if one is ill, or disabled, or whatever, no excuses. The Church would not teach this and doesn’t.

People can refrain from sex. However, it cannot be done as a means to hurt the other spouse - say as punishment, or emotional abuse, etc. They also cannot refrain solely to not have children (unless there is a serious reason, like economic hardship, health problems, etc.) Sex has two purposes - unitive and procreative. Seeking to make sure that the sex has only one or none of those purposes is wrong. It is like using a brick to hammer in nails - that’s not what a brick is for - that is what a hammer is for.

Don’t accuse me of misrepresenting the church. God knows my intentions, you don’t.

If you’re not misrepresenting the Church on this issue, you can find me a citation of the Church’s official teachings easily that says exactly what you say. Someone else has already posted a citation of the Church’s official teachings, and it doesn’t say what you say.

 

[Chaldean_Rite]

How am I misrepresenting the church?? I thought unless you are in a marriage and planning to procreate, that sex is a mortal sin? Sex for pleasure is no different than masturbating for pleasure. It’s about your personal pleasure. I’m trying to understand what is acceptable and what isn’t.

Don’t accuse me of misrepresenting the church. God knows my intentions, you don’t. Leave the judging to him, thanks.

You are misrepresenting the Church because you speak fallacies about the morality of sex during infertile times. Its very different when you ask versus assert.

 

[JJC42482]

Incorrect. Citation please.

Using this reasoning, this means that married couples must have sex every day during their marriage. Even if one is ill, or disabled, or whatever, no excuses. The Church would not teach this and doesn’t.

People can refrain from sex. However, it cannot be done as a means to hurt the other spouse - say as punishment, or emotional abuse, etc. They also cannot refrain solely to not have children (unless there is a serious reason, like economic hardship, health problems, etc.) Sex has two purposes - unitive and procreative. Seeking to make sure that the sex has only one or none of those purposes is wrong. It is like using a brick to hammer in nails - that’s not what a brick is for - that is what a hammer is for.

If you’re not misrepresenting the Church on this issue, you can find me a citation of the Church’s official teachings easily that says exactly what you say. Someone else has already posted a citation of the Church’s official teachings, and it doesn’t say what you say.

Well I have been getting conflicting answers from people. I thought someone said that sex with your spouse is a mortal sin if it’s not for the sake of procreation. I’m just trying to get some clarification. If that’s not the case, then I apoligize. I could have sworn that someone in one of these forums said that sex was only permissible when a married couple wanted to procreate. I thought it wasn’t allowed to be done for pleasure.