What if God Gave Us Proof?

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ilovekittens said:
No, I don’t think we would have free will, if we had unequivocal proof of God’s existence. Remember, God is not just some guy. As conceived of by the Church, He is Infinite, Boundless Glory and Majesty. If we could really catch a glimpse of that, we could not just shrug it off and go our own way, but I think we would have no choice but to accept and believe and worship, etc.
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God spoke directly to people in the Bible, but they did not have their free will taken away because of that.
 
O Dear OP!!!

For example, every night God could write on the sky for a few minutes:

Good night
  • God
Silly me I thought that was what the sunset was all about! :rolleyes:

Peace,

Gail
 
Neil_Anthony said:
For me, the strongest argument of a non-believer is to ask “Why doesn’t God give us some solid proof that He exists?”

For example, every night God could write on the sky for a few minutes:

Good night
- God
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Then what would be the point of faith?
 
ilovekittens said:
God is always breaking the laws of reason, if you believe in miracles or virgin birth or resurrection from the dead, etc.
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Miracles aren’t contradictions of reason; they’re interventions of God in the order of created nature. Making a four-sided triangle would be contradicting reason, while intervening in the order of created nature is more in the way of the Virgin Birth, transubstantiation, the Feeding of the 5000, and the Resurrection.
ilovekittens said:
Moreover, God is not known through detached, objective rationality - at least, not the Christian God - but through the subjective experience of “faith.”
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True, there are some aspects of the divine nature inaccessible to unaided reason- the Trinity, for example- and these we believe with faith, viz., we render assent to the proclamation of an authoritative external source. But the basic idea of God as the Summum Bonum and Supreme Being can be ascertained through exercise of reason.
 
JimmyJazz said:
Miracles aren’t contradictions of reason; they’re interventions of God in the order of created nature. Making a four-sided triangle would be contradicting reason, while intervening in the order of created nature is more in the way of the Virgin Birth, transubstantiation, the Feeding of the 5000, and the Resurrection.

True, there are some aspects of the divine nature inaccessible to unaided reason- the Trinity, for example- and these we believe with faith, viz., we render assent to the proclamation of an authoritative external source. But the basic idea of God as the Summum Bonum and Supreme Being can be ascertained through exercise of reason.
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A four-sided triangle is the exact same thing as a virgin birth. These are equally impossible logically, thus contradictions of reason.

The Christian God is a personal god, one who interacts with us and gives meaning to our lives on a daily basis. The cold, detached, clockmaker God - whose existence may or may not be able to be proven by reason - is not the Christian God.
 
Hmmmmmmmmmmmmm…something to think about. I would also expect that the condition of the person asking for proofs of God’s existence matters. For example: the destitute man driven to the end of his wits by circumstance, cries out to God, “If You exist, please help me!” and experiences a series of events that change his life. To him God exists and he is grateful that the Mighty One would reach out to help him. On the other hand, the skeptic who has spent his years in convincing himself about the wonders of the sciences and the man-made world, sees only human efforts being the causal activator in all of these wonders, and feels no need of God. He is oblivious of the Author of all intelliegnce and design! And the skeptic’s questions of God’s existence are a self-serving desire for proofs of God’s non-existence.

So it depends upon the asker. For some the seas and the stars are proof enough, but some will look at the same seas and stars and think of their physical properties and laws and see no one.

Peace,

Gail
 
Roman’s 1, God does give proof intentionally- just because proof isn’t accepted, doesn’t make it false. see this for authentic proof-
scripturelink.googlepages.com/meernessoftruth

newconscience.googlepages.com/merenessoftruth
newconscience.googlepages.com/theexistenceofmorality-andhowallmimicgod
newconscience.googlepages.com/thetriunenatureofreality

As to, what if he gave us proof, he gave us utter proof, it is sin, or cultural factors or the like, along with pride, or insanity which delude people as to proof. See also forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?p=3978114#post3978114

No atheist has yet to combat this.:cool:
 
GailMac said:
Hmmmmmmmmmmmmm…something to think about. I would also expect that the condition of the person asking for proofs of God’s existence matters. For example: the destitute man driven to the end of his wits by circumstance, cries out to God, “If You exist, please help me!” and experiences a series of events that change his life. To him God exists and he is grateful that the Mighty One would reach out to help him. On the other hand, the skeptic who has spent his years in convincing himself about the wonders of the sciences and the man-made world, sees only human efforts being the causal activator in all of these wonders, and feels no need of God. He is oblivious of the Author of all intelliegnce and design! And the skeptic’s questions of God’s existence are a self-serving desire for proofs of God’s non-existence.

So it depends upon the asker. For some the seas and the stars are proof enough, but some will look at the same seas and stars and think of their physical properties and laws and see no one.

Peace,

Gail
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Hi Gail
Then there were 10 apostles who believed, and one who refused to believe… and Jesus came to the one who didn’t believe and showed him physical proof! Why did St. Thomas get that grace and most of us don’t? It’s very mysterious 🙂
 
atheist1 said:
I’m sure if god did exist he could manage to provide some evidence of his existence. At least he could do better than he is currently doing.

If god does in fact exist, what purpose do you think hiding accomplishes, other than leading many to disbelief?
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Disbelief is not a result of God “hiding”. It is a result of the atheist denying “otherness” in the universe. This is the most inherently selfish of existences in that the obstinancy in disbelieving that God created the universe can only lead to disbelief that anything exists outside of your imagination. Without a sense of the “other”, you can have no sense of the “self”. You may believe that your neighbor exists, but the inability to apply “otherness” to Creation as a whole, makes it impossible to prove that your neighbor, your loved ones, or anyone else exists at all. Everything you see, touch, and feel could be a figment of your imagination, because there is zero scientific evidence that anything can will itself into being where it did not exist before.

A refusal to believe in the Supreme Other (God) means that the only legitimate belief you can have is in your self - hence the abomination of New Age-ism and Christian Science, since one cannot legitimately deny the cause (God) and yet love what is caused (your neighbor).

At the end of the day, God is not hiding from the atheist. The atheist is hiding from God.
 
ilovekittens said:
The easy answer why undeniable proof of God does not exist is that such evidence would destroy free will. If such proof existed - say, if He in His Blinding Magnificence showed up on the streets of New York one day - then we mere humans would have no choice but to believe. It wouldn’t even be belief but fact. We would have no free choice in the matter, and our existence in this imperfect universe would be for naught.
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This question can’t be answered unless we agree on a defiintion of “faith”. Is “faith” merely believing something exists? Or is “faith” defined by the action that occurs after recognition that something exists? James tells us that faith without works is not faith at all, so it seems to me that God writing “good night” in the sky may cause the world to recognize He exists, but it will not impede the free will of individuals to act/not act upon it and actuate that faith.

Here’s a great case in point: Proof of God’s existence did nothing to limit Satan’s ability to choose “self” instead of “Other” (God). So proof would not in any way impede free will. One cannot, as Protestants contend, simply believe something and be saved. Since the fruit of faith is works undertaken by free will of man, God showing up on a streetcorner and screaming “I’M HERE!” does not preclude faith itself, since faith requires a response from its subject.

And, as in the case of Satan, it’s conceivable that proof of God’s existence may yield less faith, not more, since man, in his fallen nature, has a proclivity to choose “self” over “Other”, regardless of the circumstances.
 
ilovekittens said:
A four-sided triangle is the exact same thing as a virgin birth. These are equally impossible logically, thus contradictions of reason.
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God is always breaking the laws of reason, if you believe in miracles or virgin birth or resurrection from the dead, etc.
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If one can believe God can do all things, than a Virgin birth is not logically impossible. Because Mary was and remained a Virgin, a virgin birth is logical since nothing is impossible with God. If God brought about a Virgin birth while Mary was sexually active, THAT would be logically impossible!

A four-sided triangle defies reason because it is improperly named. A “triangle” cannot exist as anything but a “triangle”. A four-sided triangle is not a triangle, but a square. So, God cannot create a four-sided “triangle” (it would make Him a liar!)

Miracles do not defy reason. They defy physical science. Since they do not defy reason, they are logically possible, since God can do all things.
 
virgin birth: defies biology
four-sided triangle: defies logic

God can overrule his laws of nature (biology, physics) but God doesn’t defy logic.
 
Neil_Anthony said:
virgin birth: defies biology
four-sided triangle: defies logic

God can overrule his laws of nature (biology, physics) but God doesn’t defy logic.
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This is a tangent, but logic and science are the same thing - they are both about making objective statements (or estimates) of the natural world and its laws, broadly defined. A four-sided triangle cannot exist, neither can a human ova develop into a human being without fertilization by a sperm cell. For that to happen, logic/science would be defied.
 
tm30 said:
This question can’t be answered unless we agree on a defiintion of “faith”. Is “faith” merely believing something exists? Or is “faith” defined by the action that occurs after recognition that something exists? James tells us that faith without works is not faith at all, so it seems to me that God writing “good night” in the sky may cause the world to recognize He exists, but it will not impede the free will of individuals to act/not act upon it and actuate that faith.

Here’s a great case in point: Proof of God’s existence did nothing to limit Satan’s ability to choose “self” instead of “Other” (God). So proof would not in any way impede free will. One cannot, as Protestants contend, simply believe something and be saved. Since the fruit of faith is works undertaken by free will of man, God showing up on a streetcorner and screaming “I’M HERE!” does not preclude faith itself, since faith requires a response from its subject.

And, as in the case of Satan, it’s conceivable that proof of God’s existence may yield less faith, not more, since man, in his fallen nature, has a proclivity to choose “self” over “Other”, regardless of the circumstances.
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A parlor trick in the sky would not be unequivocal evidence for the existence of God. Seeing Him in His Blinding Glory would be, though, and, if He really is the Infinite Good, then mere mortal man would have no choice but to follow/worship/love that.
I guess the Satan counterpoint doesn’t weigh much with me because I don’t really believe in him.
 
ilovekittens said:
A parlor trick in the sky would not be unequivocal evidence for the existence of God. Seeing Him in His Blinding Glory would be, though, and, if He really is the Infinite Good, then mere mortal man would have no choice but to follow/worship/love that.
I guess the Satan counterpoint doesn’t weigh much with me because I don’t really believe in him.
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Oddly enough, God does.
 
Dear Neil A - you asked me what all the mystery about St. Thomas is about. I would like to point out that Thomas’ doubt wasn’t about the existence of God, it was about His Resurrection and appearance to the others. So, is this a pertinent application of your original question or are you trying to steer away from your original premise that a strong argument coming from a non-believer is that God doesn’t provide solid proofs of His existence sufficent for belief?

Peace,

Gail
 
GailMac said:
Dear Neil A - you asked me what all the mystery about St. Thomas is about. I would like to point out that Thomas’ doubt wasn’t about the existence of God, it was about His Resurrection and appearance to the others. So, is this a pertinent application of your original question or are you trying to steer away from your original premise that a strong argument coming from a non-believer is that God doesn’t provide solid proofs of His existence sufficent for belief?

Peace,

Gail
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hmm… maybe i’m just confused and I confused the two in my head…
 
tm30 said:
If one can believe God can do all things, than a Virgin birth is not logically impossible. Because Mary was and remained a Virgin, a virgin birth is logical since nothing is impossible with God. If God brought about a Virgin birth while Mary was sexually active, THAT would be logically impossible!

A four-sided triangle defies reason because it is improperly named. A “triangle” cannot exist as anything but a “triangle”. A four-sided triangle is not a triangle, but a square. So, God cannot create a four-sided “triangle” (it would make Him a liar!)

Miracles do not defy reason. They defy physical science. Since they do not defy reason, they are logically possible, since God can do all things.
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A four side triangle couldn’t exist because of the limits of human language. A triangle couldn’t have four sides because in our method for defining a triangle it would have 3 sides, I guess what i am saying is God could create a four side triangle but then we d call it a square.
 
Jesus was on earth some 33 years …not a short time at all…StMaria Goretti was on earth barely 12 years,yet she has influenced my life thus since I taught in a catholic (small C) high school for 30 years ,sired 7 children and work and lecture at a historical site,using many of the value system she left us with…it seems length is not so important at that. We have been given the greatest gift of all of Gods creatures…the gift of free will…the ability ,after proper training…to know the difference between right and wrong! Jesus was unjustly executed by the state…prompted on by a PC clergy…thus teaching us about injustice and intolerance! Jesus cut down in the glory of young Manhood will be forever ,here on earth, a lesson…that its not how long one lives that counts,but how does one live…for the greater glory of God or for the greater glory of the credit card money changers???
 
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