What if God Gave Us Proof?

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**Should we really use sentences like „As Catholics, we are to consider that…“
ARE TO?
Often theological friends tell me: The church says…, so there’s no alternative to this sight of things.

True! But there’s a big BUT:
Yes, I as a fundamental Catholic, see several things another way. I’m against things like excommunication when a person marries second time – for instance to protect the children. I don’t fully agree to non marriage of priests.
That’s among others, things that haven’t anything to do with our believe in God and His word, which is faith in God.

Faith however, can’t be ordered nor dictated by an authority – no matter how much we love that Church Jesus founded. Faith must come out of us - not because we have to, but we love to believe in God and are fully convinced.
Not because the Church saith so, but merely because out of own discovery and conviction we “must” find out that everything in it, is proof of God’s existence.

Beware of the fiction you’d believe anything what so ever, because you are to, for in that case you don’t really believe. Our faith would stand on feet of clay and won’t stand the slightest shock - and there will be shocks trying to burst our believe.

And by the way: Knowing Satan sinned in the presence of God, is no dilemma to Christian mind at all. God gave them free will to decide. They couldn’t die, so they thought „we have nothing to loose“ and they lost the presence of God in eternity. Stupid of them, for this gap between heaven and hell will never be overcome.

We do not have that visible presence of God. Had God made us living in heaven, it wouldn’t be fair to Satan. God is equitableness, fairness, justice and love Himself.
So, we are created in a wonderful world to do good - in order to get into heaven.

We do have proofs a lot, if we are ready and willing to see them in this wonderful world that’s full of proofs of God – if we don’t destroy them.

In fact I think the mere question IS GOD REAL? is a fatal sin, as we herewith give room to the idea that Jesus passion and word was a fake. In reality, God is more real than we are.
**
 
Bruno_Schulz said:
Yes, I as a fundamental Catholic, see several things another way. I’m against things like excommunication when a person marries second time – for instance to protect the children.
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vatican.va/archive/ccc_css/archive/catechism/p3s2c1a1.htm#2089Incredulity is the neglect of revealed truth or the willful refusal to assent to it. “Heresy is the obstinate post-baptismal denial of some truth which must be believed with divine and catholic faith, or it is likewise an obstinate doubt concerning the same; apostasy is the total repudiation of the Christian faith; schism is the refusal of submission to the Roman Pontiff or of communion with the members of the Church subject to him.”
:eek:
I urge you to reconsider your position.
 
“In fact I think the mere question IS GOD REAL? is a fatal sin, as we herewith give room to the idea that Jesus passion and word was a fake. In reality, God is more real than we are.”

St. Paul already addressed that posibility when he spoke of us being the most pityable of all if Christ was not the Messiah. So it is no crime to ask the question is God real, this kind of intelectual repression will not save us. And as Catholics, we are to accept all of creation as proof of God’s existance. I don’t see your point. You seem to take issue with what I say but your argument is a bit ponderous, please do not take offense at this. I just don’t see what you disagree with.
 
Excelency said:
please do not take offense at this
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**Of course not! It’s far better to speak as ones heart feels, than to form words ones heart doesn’t accept. As long as it’s done in love, it’s perfectly right.

Let’s say instead of ponderous belief and faith, much more so a kind of self-evident belief and faith, as the word of Jesus Christ is a matter of course and simply couldn’t be else.

Quite often I hear; what on earth makes you so nasty cocksure, and it’ damn natural to doubt from time to time, and to ask the question is God real.

But let’s accept and take notice, that on this world are millions who never doubted and never let the slightest seed of doubt germinate. God is fact to them. Not because they might have had a crucial experience (I hope that word is right – I looked it up), but out of “natural beliefe”. So often I hear: I did not believe, but than this happened and ever since I am convinced.
Do we really need this? NO! We need and have the Word of God, verified by Jesus Christ. And we have the incredible deeds of God and Jesus.

Isn’t there a heap of rubbish in historic proceedings we do believe as real, but never happened that way. Jesus life and death and resurrection is testified (and was prophesied in the Old Testament) by many, in words, that never faded away in 4000 (OT in any case more than 3.500) and in 2000 (NT) years and will live forth forever in a book that had been printed and red in so many languages (I heared 1000) so unmatchable often as no other book of the world – the Holy Bible.
And then we still dare to doubt? No, – doubt is not natural.
And NO, we are not to believe, but beliefe is in a very natural way part of a Christian, who feels the slightest doubt as huge offence of God.
A monk told me once: “People consider doubt as natural. What if they’d doubt if their father really is their father? It would be an unspeakable offence. But then, to doubt Gods existence now and then is quite normal??? Definitely not!”
**
sorry - my English might sound terrible, that’s why I invite anyone to write to me in private mail to correct this or that and to further disguss details, that would be too much for a forum.
Thanks to those who already write, I take great honour of your private mails. (don’t send PM’s instead- it’s such a mess to open and answer them). My Mail address is:
Krippenfiguren at t-online.de of course the at as @
 
If you search for the truth with admirable intentions then you will find it with an honest approach. The door is not closed but rather the minds and hearts of many are locked in material fixation.

Revealing the truth to many is subject to the whole.

If one was to reveal undeniable irrefutable evidence in the face of adversities to a global audience then you would leave no room for truth in its purest form, as it was intended, not blemished by overwhelming evidence scoffed down, not by the industrial shuffle of a line - forced out of character, but by strength of character based on freedom of moral decisions.

God simply whats the real McCoy.

We are born of flesh, not divine presence and therefore do not have presence of mind to comprehend all maters. No amount of science can uncover what already is, or cover the existence of god as it’s method for the most is of material substance. This does not mean science is bad of course as needless to say it is used to help many people of the back of god and nonetheless some try to disprove, oh the irony.

You are free to express your conscious decisions how you see fit, all maters are accounted for and you must account for yourself.
 
**Actually it’s the same thing as if you bring any action to law. You have to prove it. No matter how absolutely you are in right, if you can’t prove it, you are in the wrong in the eyes of the world, who doesn’t want to beliefe. Careless of facts and even if all witnesses, lawyers and judges know you’re in the right, you’re wrong before the world – unless one day they’ll all see.

They will all see! This day will come to anyone and they will see what hey didn’t let be true; they will see the glory of the LORD, the splendor of our God. (Isaiah 35:2) They will see, and what they have not heard, they will understand. (Isaiah 52:15) They will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of the sky, with power and great glory. (Matthew 24:30)
Jesus said, “Do not be afraid. Go and tell them; they will see me.”

**
 
I enjoyed Spirit’s words, sound allot like LGXVI, it was nice.😉 🙂 😉 :cool:
 
Neil_Anthony said:
For me, the strongest argument of a non-believer is to ask “Why doesn’t God give us some solid proof that He exists?”

For example, every night God could write on the sky for a few minutes:

Good night
- God

There must be some great reasons why God doesn’t do this. I can think of a couple of reasons but I’m looking for more. Also I’m interested in doing more reading on this question if anyone can recommend a book or article to help.

Some questions/reasons:
  1. If God did that, what language would it be in?
  2. If God did that, would it be scientifically explanable? If not, how would science approach it? Would it completely mess up science and keep us from progressing?
  3. How would people respond emotionally to God being so close to us? Would we become lazy and stop trying to pray to God, and instead just watch for the notes in the sky? Would we then complain that if God really existed, he would make the notes more meaningful?
Any other reasons?
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Let’s say for a moment that God did offer such “proof”. Without the objective standard of scripture, how would you know that it is from God?
 
JonathanEdwards said:
Let’s say for a moment that God did offer such “proof”. Without the objective standard of scripture, how would you know that it is from God?
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Well, I think we would know it was from some intelligent superior being. Which is what we call God or ‘a god’. It wouldn’t be proof of Christianity’s idea of God, but proof of some sort of superior being.
 
**there’s no answer by now to:

What would be, if God gave us proof of His being?

What sense would the world make then?
Everybody would of course believe – that means no believe is necessary if you see proof. So the world would know and behave in a way God want’s us to behave – loving God and each other.
In that case, - as I wrote before – we’d be all in heaven in the first place. Why should God have created the world for us a a place of probation?

That’s why God gives us no further proof than what He said and did already.
**
 
Bruno_Schulz said:
**there’s no answer by now to:

What would be, if God gave us proof of His being?

What sense would the world make then?
Everybody would of course believe – that means no believe is necessary if you see proof. So the world would know and behave in a way God want’s us to behave – loving God and each other.
In that case, - as I wrote before – we’d be all in heaven in the first place. Why should God have created the world for us a a place of probation?

That’s why God gives us no further proof than what He said and did already.
**
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That isn’t what the Bible says. Both John 3 and Romans 1-2 tell us that men already know that there is a God and they still choose to rebel against Him.

The problem isn’t that men don’t have “proof”, it’s that they’re sinners and are naturally inclined to rebel against God.
 
JonathanEdwards said:
The problem is that they’re sinners and are naturally inclined to rebel against God.
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**
If human kind would naturally rebel against God, God had created this attitude into us.
God did not add an inclination of sin into us.
If it really would be “natural” to sin and rebel against God, God would turn a blind eye upon most sinners.
If it where natural; God wouldn’t have warned us about sin beginning with Adam and Eva and later Kain in Genesis 4:7:
“If you do what is right, will you not be accepted? But if you do not do what is right, sin is crouching at your door; it desires to have you, but you must master it.”

Beware to think it’s natural not to do what is right, or else you’ll become a slave to sin (Joh 11:38) which is definitely not natural; as you too pointed out, that men know whats right and wrong.

I remember in the 50th, a fellow who didn’t beliefe in God told me: Oh well, this God of ours knows we can’t else but to sin, and so He won’t mind.
That’s the disastrous outcome of “it’s natural”.
No! It’s not. Let never this idea grab hold of you.**
 
Bruno_Schulz said:
**
If human kind would naturally rebel against God, God had created this attitude into us.**

Not according to the Bible. Romans 5 is clear that sin is passed down by Adam, through our fathers, not from God.
I remember in the 50th, a fellow who didn’t beliefe in God told me: Oh well, this God of ours knows we can’t else but to sin, and so He won’t mind.
That’s the disastrous outcome of “it’s natural”.
No! It’s not. Let never this idea grab hold of you.
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Thank you, but I think I’ll continue to believe the Biblical teaching that man is born with a sin nature.
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Please don’t stray from the original topic, people. Take side discussions to new or existing threads in the appropriate fora. Thank you all.
 
Excelency said:
“In fact I think the mere question IS GOD REAL? is a fatal sin, as we herewith give room to the idea that Jesus passion and word was a fake. In reality, God is more real than we are.”

St. Paul already addressed that posibility when he spoke of us being the most pityable of all if Christ was not the Messiah. So it is no crime to ask the question is God real, this kind of intelectual repression will not save us. And as Catholics, we are to accept all of creation as proof of God’s existance. I don’t see your point. You seem to take issue with what I say but your argument is a bit ponderous, please do not take offense at this. I just don’t see what you disagree with.
Click to expand...
The “unwounded” child has never considered God not to exist. God simply is the “love” shown to him as “the world”.

The “wounded” child considers God “unfair” and in need of “explaining himself”. God is contingent on “the world” not wounding him anymore.

The “wounded” juvenile desparately wants God to exist, but needs a detailed explanation as to how God CAN exist after his (the juvenile’s) endured wounding.

The “wounded” adult want’s God NOT to exist, because the heartbreak of there being a God who has allowed their suffering is intolerable.

Start explaining what “God” means early in life. And if it doesn’t come before the “door” of adulthood comes, the tide of purposeful anti-belief creates enormous amounts of suffering.
 
**

CatsAndDogs said: “Start explaining what “God” means early in life. And if it doesn’t come before the “door” of adulthood comes, the tide of purposeful anti-belief creates enormous amounts of suffering.”

I’m about 70 and if you believe it or not, I very exactly know what
“God” meant early in my life.”< and surely so many people do too. I remember the time when I was 3 ½ and almost 4 and I said to Granny – standing on her lap holding myself on her shoulders: “you know everything, but there’s a question I can only ask the angels. Why am I ?
No! This is not an exception – I’m no exception! Very very many kids ask themselves so in the age between 3 and 6 before they get to school, even then, when they never dare to pronounce this that way. OK, I said Angels. Angels where “friends of mine” you might well ask silly questions, youd never dare to ask - your parents.
God himself, was some Person - ever so real, and higher than Granddad or Granny and above Mom and Dad. That’s how Dad (and Mom) explained God to me. No question; this was fact and reality and ever so good a feeeling, because I could speak to this loving God of mine (of ours) and God of everything there was (as He created it) - if men, animal or rest of the creation. “Simply” God! Our Father! LOVING Father!
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I kept this – should I say “believe”? – no! believe is not the word. Yes, let’s rather say CONVICTION until today. UNCHANGED.

To answer your question: No, I (and millions with me) did not change this or get away from this >what “God” meant early in our life< ever since, but GOD not in “” quotation marks, but as reality. Incomprehensible of course forever, but actually quite comprehensible, if we take God as what He is. And:
We do know “what” and who God is. How? Of Jesus word.

At the moment I’m in hospital for heart-trouble again, and so there are some problems answering mails of yours. Mid next week I hope to be released from this prison 😉
Thank’s a lot for your mails!!! Please don’t send PM’s. All the more happy I’m for real mails, and more than one friendship arouse of such mailes.

Yours
Bruno
Krippenfiguren at t-online.de
**
 
Hy everyone!
First of all I guess thats the point to beleive without seeing the evidence, If you knew that God is waiting for you the afterlife you would not care about anything anymore.
I also think if God gave us a sign right now, nobody would actually beleive it. Almost every day on tv you see people claimig they saw God or they spoke to Jesus or God told me to do this or that, do you beleive them??..no We are way too distracted to see the obvious, all we care about is ourselves, our own lifestyle and how we can maintain it. Our life is too fast to even stop thinking about things that really matter, not just money and power and our weight. Sometimes we should unplug our i-pods and turn our tv off to see and hear.
This week the LHC (The largest particle accelerator ever built) is going to start its mission to find the God particle!!! Several countries put money in the project and we use our latest technologies to beat God and prove ourselves wrong that we can find out what is really going on. In the pursuit of the smallest particle we tend to forget that what is going to happen even if we find something. Everybody is going te beleive that WE GOT IT but I am sure that someone else in a few years time is going to find something else. Why do we still beleive in science??? Eversince we use science whatever we were proved yesterday it proves to be wrong today and the opposite is right tomorrow.
God is the same every day, everything he sad, done is true and right from the very begining of time till today, but we still need to live in the dilusion that money, which powers science is the solution to our life.
I also think God gives us proof every day, and those who can see it or hear it agree with me. It happens to me day by day, I walk on the streets with a question in my mind and I see the answer around me. In Relevation he predicted many things which all happening right in front of our eyes.
We try to explain the world with the help of science, or predict it which is wrong… I love science I am an engineer, I love math physics and things connected to this BUT I dont think that is the way we should use our knowledge. Getting to know the world better using our computers and telescopes is fine, we are curious as humans but we should accept the fact that some things are unexplainable by the language of numbers.
We cant explain our own feelings, we cant predict what we are going to feel ten minutes later, or when are we going to fall in love or with whom.
We are more than what we see, so is God more than we can imagine. I just hope that we soon realize this ans start to beleive in something that can save us and makes us truly HAPPY.
 
Neil_Anthony said:
For me, the strongest argument of a non-believer is to ask “Why doesn’t God give us some solid proof that He exists?”

For example, every night God could write on the sky for a few minutes:

Good night
  • God
There must be some great reasons why God doesn’t do this. I can think of a couple of reasons but I’m looking for more. Also I’m interested in doing more reading on this question if anyone can recommend a book or article to help.

Some questions/reasons:
  1. If God did that, what language would it be in?
  2. If God did that, would it be scientifically explanable? If not, how would science approach it? Would it completely mess up science and keep us from progressing?
  3. How would people respond emotionally to God being so close to us? Would we become lazy and stop trying to pray to God, and instead just watch for the notes in the sky? Would we then complain that if God really existed, he would make the notes more meaningful?
Any other reasons?
Click to expand...

Someone spoke of “Blinding Magnificence”; to take a hint from that: if God appeared, it would destroy us. IOW, for us to survive at all, God cannot show Himself. So in a sense the universe is designed to favour agnosticism & atheism.​

And, love that can be proved conclusively, is not love. It is its own bond, & needs nothing but itself. A God Who could be proved to exist would be utterly worthless (to put it nicely). This is why using miracles as proof of God is so foul & disgusting - it destroys faith in the very act of proving it; & why apologetics is not real theology at all.
 
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