What if God Gave Us Proof?

[Neil_Anthony]

Someone spoke of “Blinding Magnificence”; to take a hint from that: if God appeared, it would destroy us. IOW, for us to survive at all, God cannot show Himself. So in a sense the universe is designed to favour agnosticism & atheism.​

Jesus showed himself, and Jesus is God. And he gave proof to the people around Him. So there must be some ways that God could show at least more of Himself without destroying us, right?

And, love that can be proved conclusively, is not love. It is its own bond, & needs nothing but itself. A God Who could be proved to exist would be utterly worthless (to put it nicely). This is why using miracles as proof of God is so foul & disgusting - it destroys faith in the very act of proving it; & why apologetics is not real theology at all.

Could you explain this a bit more? Why can’t love that is proved be real love? For example if you prove your love to someone by doing good things for them.

Didn’t Jesus use miracles to prove to his disciples that He was God? And God the Father even spoke at the transfiguration and His baptism.

 

[Bruno_Schulz]

Didn’t Jesus use miracles to prove to his disciples that He was God? And God the Father even spoke at the transfiguration and His baptism.

**
Well I think I know what both of you mean. Yes, it is disgusting, when people need miracles to believe. If people are as cheek to ask for miracles before they believe, God won’t let them happen! See Matthew 13:58 where Jesus stopped doing any miracle at those people: >And He did not do many miracles there because of their lack of faith.<
I also agree to the word: >A God Who could be proved to exist would be utterly worthless (to put it nicely<
For it’s simply such, that anything that can be prooved, also can be manipulated, and a God who could be manipulated would’nt be God as He lives and exists from eternaty to eternaty.**

[Edited]

 

[Spirit_of_Truth]

Hy everyone!
First of all I guess thats the point to beleive without seeing the evidence, If you knew that God is waiting for you the afterlife you would not care about anything anymore.
I also think if God gave us a sign right now, nobody would actually beleive it. Almost every day on tv you see people claimig they saw God or they spoke to Jesus or God told me to do this or that, do you beleive them??..no We are way too distracted to see the obvious, all we care about is ourselves, our own lifestyle and how we can maintain it. Our life is too fast to even stop thinking about things that really matter, not just money and power and our weight. Sometimes we should unplug our i-pods and turn our tv off to see and hear.
This week the LHC (The largest particle accelerator ever built) is going to start its mission to find the God particle!!! Several countries put money in the project and we use our latest technologies to beat God and prove ourselves wrong that we can find out what is really going on. In the pursuit of the smallest particle we tend to forget that what is going to happen even if we find something. Everybody is going te beleive that WE GOT IT but I am sure that someone else in a few years time is going to find something else. Why do we still beleive in science??? Eversince we use science whatever we were proved yesterday it proves to be wrong today and the opposite is right tomorrow.
God is the same every day, everything he sad, done is true and right from the very begining of time till today, but we still need to live in the dilusion that money, which powers science is the solution to our life.
I also think God gives us proof every day, and those who can see it or hear it agree with me. It happens to me day by day, I walk on the streets with a question in my mind and I see the answer around me. In Relevation he predicted many things which all happening right in front of our eyes.
We try to explain the world with the help of science, or predict it which is wrong… I love science I am an engineer, I love math physics and things connected to this BUT I dont think that is the way we should use our knowledge. Getting to know the world better using our computers and telescopes is fine, we are curious as humans but we should accept the fact that some things are unexplainable by the language of numbers.
We cant explain our own feelings, we cant predict what we are going to feel ten minutes later, or when are we going to fall in love or with whom.
We are more than what we see, so is God more than we can imagine. I just hope that we soon realize this ans start to beleive in something that can save us and makes us truly HAPPY.

Good post Deo Optimo Maxi The problem I have with science is not its worth but usage. If we take for example as you have mentioned I.e. “particle accelerator” it cost billions to construct never mind maintain and yet more important issues are left to the wayside, I find this madness. Some may argue that we must progress even at the expanse of human life.

Almost every day on tv you see people claimig they saw God or they spoke to Jesus or God told me to do this or that, do you beleive them??..no We are way too distracted

It is natural to be skeptical of such clams as not everyone is genuine but rather many are wolfs in sheep’s clothing. There are many who are genuine without a doubt, I know but many get painted with the same brush because of an inconvenience it may cause to oppositions train of thought, which will run out of steam eventually.

As a good rule of thumb, you can usually judge people by what they do not by what the say and take that as face value and not by how much they can smile or wink.

I also think God gives us proof every day, and those who can see it or hear it agree with me

There is no doubt that there is an insurmountable wealth of evidence for god - if you look - but many will assert themselves against such facts but rather pin their hopes on planet of the apes it would seem.

 

[CatsAndDogs]

CatsAndDogs said:
“Start explaining what “God” means early in life. And if it doesn’t come before the “door” of adulthood comes, the tide of purposeful anti-belief creates enormous amounts of suffering.”

I remember the time when I was 3 ½ and almost 4 and I said to Granny – standing on her lap holding myself on her shoulders: “you know everything, but there’s a question I can only ask the angels. Why am I ?

Of course, your parents and grandparents told you about the angels, and apparently in the correct way! How “novel” these days.

God himself, was some Person - ever so real, and higher than Granddad or Granny and above Mom and Dad. That’s how Dad (and Mom) explained God to me. – “Simply” God! Our Father! LOVING Father!

To answer your question: No, I (and millions with me) did not change this or get away from this >what “God” meant early in our life< ever since, but GOD not in “” quotation marks, but as reality.

My point isn’t (wasn’t) that ALL people “fall away” from belief that “God is love” to “God is either evil or irrelevantly nonexistent”, but that those who DO do so because they were “hurt” by the circumstances of life and want to be “physically and immediately” relieved of their suffering without understanding what “suffering” is for.

At the moment I’m in hospital for heart-trouble again, and so there are some problems answering mails of yours. Mid next week I hope to be released from this prison

Yours
Bruno
Krippenfiguren at t-online.de

Ngyaaaahhhhhhhhh!! Goodness! Here’s hoping your time in hospital is short and “fruitful” (ie you get BETTER!).

Best to you, Kripster, er, Bruno…!

 

[Bruno_Schulz]

**Hi there – and thanks a lot. I did not get a note there is an answer on this thread, so I find it just now accidentally

I’m back home since yesterday with some aches though and wounds of that battle, but next week that’ll be history. Thank’s for the friendly care and thank’s a lot for the mails that reached my laptop in hospital .

Yes parents, grandparents and relatives who give kids a real knowledge did do a lot of good to deserve Gods kingdom.

Yes, the “particle accelerator” is madness and brings us nowhere, as the “big bang” is nonsense, because we know about creation. God needs neither material nor a big bang to create – He simply creates by His will, and that’s all there’s to it.

No – no living human ever saw God besides the Son. Those who tell they’e seen God, don’t know the scripture Johannes 1:18. The Madonna, Saints though and Angels, have really appeared to worthy humans even in our days.

Cats’n’dogs wrote

My point isn’t (wasn’t) that ALL people “fall away” from belief that “God is love” to “God is either evil or irrelevantly nonexistent”, but that those who DO do so because they were “hurt” by the circumstances of life and want to be “physically and immediately” relieved of their suffering without understanding what “suffering” is for.<

Of course you didn’t say “ALL people….” but those who let themselves hurt by circumstances to the extend that they doubt or accuse God, must ask themselves, how solid their believe was, and if they and real believe at all that might have been nothing but a great dream.
When I was called to the hospital in 1997 to find out that my son was about to die (it was until today unsolved murder), my wife and I in all our world of tears, grief and moaning, asked God to take Bjoern to Himself into His kingdom – but not vice-versa stopped believe. Too many aske: Why does this happen to me?! It happens to thousands every day – not just “me”. The world isn’t heaven and most evil happens because of the free will of humans who might do either – good or bad.

And I do not think, suffering really has a reason (“understanding what “suffering” is for”), for else Jesus had not cried at the death of Lazarus or John Baptist, or the sight of Jerusalem, that later (in 70aC.) was destroyed. Jesus suffered a lot about the circumstances we arranged (besides the suffering in His passion for our salvation).
We know that Hiobs suffering had the reason to prove Hiobs believe and Hiobs agonies where given by Satan. So exceptions might prove the rule.

If only I’d know what Kripster means – didn’t find it in the dict. **
Krippenfiguren at t-online.de

 

[Greg27]

I think if God were to ‘prove’ himself in this way, his existence would have to be evident in such a way that every sound human mind would recognise God’s existence with the same readiness and ease with which it recognises the existence of the natural cosmos. Alternately, one may posit God could reveal himself by an act or series of extraordinary or miraculous acts. But then in my view, if one adopted this position it would pose some tough questions for the theist:

1. Isn’t such a God very capricious and arbitary in acting this way?
2. If God can act to decisively intervene in the world at any time, then why does God not intervene to prevent evil and suffering from happening (such as a hurricane, famine, earthquake, murder, rape or genocide)
3. If God acted in this way in the past, why does he not do so now?

1-3 may be answered using Ockham’s solution - God’s will and power are absolute and also absolutely free. God can do whatever he wills or desires, with absolute and effective power, with no constraint (bar the laws of logic). But, I don’t think that is totally satisfactory.

 

[CatsAndDogs]

And I do not think, suffering really has a reason (“understanding what “suffering” is for”), for else Jesus had not cried at the death of Lazarus or John Baptist, or the sight of Jerusalem, that later (in 70aC.) was destroyed. Jesus suffered a lot about the circumstances we arranged (besides the suffering in His passion for our salvation).

We know that Hiobs suffering had the reason to prove Hiobs believe and Hiobs agonies where given by Satan. So exceptions might prove the rule.

I think the english for “Hiob” is “Job”.

Jesus cried for Lazarus because it was worth “crying about”, meaning worth mourning, or worth seeing the sadness in.

Suffering exists for us to give it to God when we are allowed to have it by God.

If only I’d know what Kripster means – didn’t find it in the dict.
Krippenfiguren at t-online.de

<chuckle, chuckle, chuckle!>

“Kripster” is just one of those goofy American “nickname constructions” that we are so fond of!

I took the “Krip” from “Krippenfiguren” and applied the “one who does” suffix, “-ster”, like the “-ster” in “ma -ster”, which is completely improper english of course, and arrived at “Kripster”.

Our President recently nicknamed one of the Male Beach Volleyball gold-medalists “the Todster (or Toddster?)” (his name was Todd).

There’s probably a german slang version of that “construction”, but I have no clue as to what it is.

 

[Bruno_Schulz]

**Thanks ol’ man. Oh silly me. I could’ve thought somet o’ that kind. And it’s a good nick too, as Krippenfiguren is I think Krip in English (nativity scene) ain’t it? (That’s what we make our living of).
Yeah. Job is the “Queens English” name for his real name Hiob . I hope Hiob doesn’t mind you made a nick of him too
The Book Job is finest literature – way above Shakespeare or Goethe, and full of valid metaphors, touching and reaching every single one of us, right into our very lives. It helped my wife, my surviving son and me a lot, when son Bjoern died. And it helps me a lot, when trying to comfort parents who lost a child. It helps everybody who gets tempted by doubts.
When we come to think, that the Book Job is in it’s oldest parts, 4.000 years old and in it’s final form around 3.000 years. In Jewish I think the name Hiob is Ijob.
Match
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Book_of_Job
(which is not in every point right as usual in wikipedia).

Now many argue, that the book Job is “simply literature” and never happened. This is rubbish. Not only that imho. It did happen exactly as stated; it really does happen every day anew - exactly as stated there, beginning with Satan’s desire to tempt us (which he is allowed to - Luke 22,31).

And here is the link to our topic > What if God Gave Us Proof?<:
I the book Job, Satan tried to prove to God, that we believe only then, when we are well off. We tend loose believe, as soon as we loose foothold in our life. If we persist as Job did, God’s grace will come over us and we will be given back a hundred times what was taken.
Secondly; God Himself proves to Satan (who is not “nobody”) and to us, that believe, if we really own believe, is always stronger than any temptation, and finally, God proves to us, after we went through it all, keeping in the back of our mind that Jesus Himself went through unmatchable more though, that believe pays finally and in eternity, when we at last understand Jesu’s word in John 14:2
What could happen to us?! Nothing, when we „have“ God. This proove is given to us; when we open our heart to the word of Jesus. Then we are heading right into the arms of the loving God. Our loving God.

**

 

[JamesG]

if he did that we would no longer have a choice between good and evil.

People would no longer have the freedom to be evil.

 

[johnunningman39]

First it would be rather silly for the Lord to give us proof. The Life, Death, and Resurrection of Christ would have been pointless. Simply, we can’t “prove” God. There is absolutely no way. By proof of God, we do not need Faith to know God. And by that, the whole meaning of our existence would come to an end. Good would have no meaning or even love. Why? Because it is in our decision to act out in Faith, to do the Will of God, not because he is forcing us or because we have scientific evidence, but because of our Faith, Hope, and Charity (Love) in and of God. Good would be done because there is no other way of doing it or because it is proven that doing Good is “right”. Essentially, good being done would have no meaning because it is not out of Faith, Hope, and Love of God. Same for Love. And besides how could we prove God wrote in the stars? Like others said, it could be the devil or some other demon?

 

[Bruno_Schulz]

God wrote in the stars?

What does this mean?

 

[Nancy121]

Then You can click anything at any time. sky is the limit.

 

[Bruno_Schulz]

sky is the limit.

:ehh: might be limit for birds - never though to us and even more so never to believe and faith and knowlege.

 

[Neil_Anthony]

First it would be rather silly for the Lord to give us proof. The Life, Death, and Resurrection of Christ would have been pointless.

Well… he gave proof to Thomas, and to the disciples by appearing to them after he rose from the dead. Also wasn’t the whole point of the transfiguration to give proof to Peter, James, and John?

 

[Bruno_Schulz]

**Yes, God always gave prove to His people. Elias, Abraham, Moses, Peter, Thomas…
and Jesus gave us His Church to give us prove of Him.
The desire is though, that God gave prove to all of us; no matter whether believer or atheist or doubter. “Please be kind enough to believe in me – look here I am”

Much was explained in this thread in the way, that one can find prove of God in everything alive, created, being. That is, if one wants to believe and is ready to do so.
If one denies faith in God, he won’t even be allowed to believe. The bibles evidence who prove that, had been stated here before.

Jesus Himself said, that there’s no other way but to believe or deny. Consequences of doubt, have to be carried by every single one himself.

You’d surely never ask a friend to prove what he told you.
What if someone doesn’t believe in you?
You turn away and won’t bother to this unworthy person to keep proving you’re right, for you do not care about people who keep doubting you as alleged liar. God does precisely this. Turn away.

Oh God – please, never let us go as far as asking prove of you.
**

 

[Bruno_Schulz]

**sorry - in my previous posting I wrote:

…and Jesus gave us His Church to give us PROVE of Him.<
it ought to be:
…and Jesus gave us His Church to give us EVIDENCE of Him.

But then, to those who realise God Himself in Jesus Christ (who saw me, saw the Father - Joh 14,9), Christ’s word of evidence of God is prove of God.
**

 

[Bruno_Schulz]

hey folks - where are you all?

 

[CatsAndDogs]

I took the “Krip” from “Krippenfiguren” and applied the “one who does” suffix, “-ster”, like the “-ster” in “ma -ster”, which is completely improper english of course, and arrived at “Kripster”.

Our President recently nicknamed one of the Male Beach Volleyball gold-medalists “the Todster (or Toddster?)” (his name was Todd).

There’s probably a german slang version of that “construction”, but I have no clue as to what it is.

Actually, I was wrong on the “Toddster” thing. The Prez nicknamed him “Toddley” and not “Toddster”.

Sorry for so grievously leading you astray as to the proper nickname of one of our famously victorious US volleyball dudes.

(( I’m SO ashamed… ))

 

[Bruno_Schulz]

**Oh, no Dear – to be ashamed it takes more – such like offending God.
And anyway – you didn’t even offend a pet (just in case I happen not to be one) – so what? And I found “Kripster” anyway quite amusing (after you had explained what it is). So: I’m a Kripster

Now let’s stick to the thread, which inquires
“What if God Gave Us Proof?”
In fact, I opened another thread pointing on this theme:
“Might a Christian ask: IS GOD REAL?”
http://forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?t=271405
but sadly enough, hardly any replies arrived
So - why don’t you…

In any case I think, the forum is rather lame these days – ain’t it?! Still – overe here, German Christian and even Cath. Forums suffer a lack of answers. Mine in fact is fading away after almost 4 years of running.
Gott-Kirche-Glaube.isthier.de
(sorry - it’s maily in German )

As to this topic here: God gave us proof more than we deserved, and when we live open-eyed, we see this prove every day. Beginning from the birth of a child and ending with the harmony of the earth in it’s beauty and unbelievable work of treat for us. Unique in the whole inestimable universe.

CU
Krippenfiguren at t-online.de
**

 

[JMMK]

Given everything in the Bible and all of the miracles seen in history, I would say that He has given proof.

Most people just are too stubborn.