What if God Gave Us Proof?

  • Thread starter Thread starter Neil_Anthony
  • Start date Start date
Status
Not open for further replies.
ilovekittens said:
This is a tangent, but logic and science are the same thing - they are both about making objective statements (or estimates) of the natural world and its laws, broadly defined. A four-sided triangle cannot exist, neither can a human ova develop into a human being without fertilization by a sperm cell. For that to happen, logic/science would be defied.
Click to expand...
I think we should define our terms…logic is a science, at least in the older sense- specifically, the science of demonstration and proof. Logic will give you the law of excluded middle. Science in the sense commonly used today refers to the natural study of the natural universe; it will give you the laws of thermodynamics. Because this kind of science deals with what is mostly a mass of contingencies (there are some possible worlds in which gravity is not a fundamental force, for example), its conclusions can be “overridden” by divine omnipotence. This omnipotence does not extend to logical impossibilities- not because God is limited, but because logical impossibilities (such as four-sided triangles) are simply meaningless.
 
Nino said:
Jesus was on earth some 33 years …not a short time at all…StMaria Goretti was on earth barely 12 years,yet she has influenced my life thus since I taught in a catholic (small C) high school for 30 years ,sired 7 children and work and lecture at a historical site,using many of the value system she left us with…it seems length is not so important at that. We have been given the greatest gift of all of Gods creatures…the gift of free will…the ability ,after proper training…to know the difference between right and wrong! Jesus was unjustly executed by the state…prompted on by a PC clergy…thus teaching us about injustice and intolerance! Jesus cut down in the glory of young Manhood will be forever ,here on earth, a lesson…that its not how long one lives that counts,but how does one live…for the greater glory of God or for the greater glory of the credit card money changers???
Click to expand...
I agree, except were the pharisees really PC, or there they more super-orthodox? I’d say they were so orthodox that they couldn’t stand that God was breaking the rules they required Him to follow!
 
ilovekittens said:
This is a tangent, but logic and science are the same thing - they are both about making objective statements (or estimates) of the natural world and its laws, broadly defined. A four-sided triangle cannot exist, neither can a human ova develop into a human being without fertilization by a sperm cell. For that to happen, logic/science would be defied.
Click to expand...
Physical science cannot prove the existence of God, but Aquinas proved that He can be ascertained by reason. So the logic/science relationship has an inherent limitation.
 
ilovekittens said:
A four-sided triangle cannot exist, neither can a human ova develop into a human being without fertilization by a sperm cell. For that to happen, logic/science would be defied.
Click to expand...
Sure it can. All things are possible with God. If He can create Adam without the use of a sperm/egg, He can certainly develop a human being in the womb using only an egg.

What’s illogical and impossible to God is a human ova developing into a hippopotamus.
 
I should probably point this out:

From Ludwig Ott’s Fundamentals of Catholic Dogma.

God, our Creator and Lord, can be known with certainty, by the natural light of reason from created things. (De fide.)
The Existence of God can be proved by means of causality. (Sent. fidei proxima.)

catholicfirst.com/thefaith/churchdocuments/dogmas.cfm
 
tm30 said:
Sure it can. All things are possible with God. If He can create Adam without the use of a sperm/egg, He can certainly develop a human being in the womb using only an egg.

What’s illogical and impossible to God is a human ova developing into a hippopotamus.
Click to expand...
God could probably do that, too, but the question would be ‘What for?’
 
ilovekittens said:
No, I don’t think we would have free will, if we had unequivocal proof of God’s existence. Remember, God is not just some guy. As conceived of by the Church, He is Infinite, Boundless Glory and Majesty. If we could really catch a glimpse of that, we could not just shrug it off and go our own way, but I think we would have no choice but to accept and believe and worship, etc.
Click to expand...
wait guys, remember Adam and Eve? They knew God but they still chose to disobey him. Proof of God’s exisistence does not take away from our free will, it would only mean that we would be making knowledgable choices to either have or not have a relationship with God, to obey or disobey with a conscience knowledge of the rewards or consequences.
 
**See also the very similar thread
      • What is the purpose of such a large universe? - - -
        Where I’ve put the same answer.
If God gave us proof, we’d KNOW by proof that there is God – is Heaven. And if we had this proof that God exists, heaven exists; no faith would be necessary.

God did give proof of Himself through Jesus Christ in many ways. Why should He give “his majesty the Human” again an extra proof?! If God kept giving us suchlike continuous proof of His existence, the earth would be needless for probation and to actually EARN the chance to live with God in eternity.
We had seen God in Jesus and now we’d get continuously other proofs we asked for, as we are to stupid to believe the first proofs. Everybody would believe now after a mass of proofs, even he had not deserved it.
We will see in due time (after our death) anyhow what the truth is and always was, and that all our doubts where just blindness to Gods word, and we’ll slam our forehead in saying: OH, OF COURSE – HOW STUPID OF ME. (It’ll be too late then).
And besides, human race will – when having decided not to believe, not believe even when the dead arouse of their graves (Luke 16/31).
**
 
Can we reject the reality of this God? There are a thousand rational objections—not only in Jesus time, but throughout all generations and today maybe more than ever. For we have developed a concept of reality that excludes reality’s translucence to God. The only thing that counts as real is what can be experimentally proven. In the parable of Lazarus and the rich man (Luke 16:19-31) the rich man dies and in knowledge of what awaits his family cries out for more evidence of revelation to be sent to his family. The highest truths cannot be forced into the type of empirical evidence that only applies to material reality. If a miracle were indeed provided as the rich man requests, there is still every possibility that it will simply lead to a hardening of hearts as evidenced in John 11:45-53.

God cannot be constrained into experimentation and thus we are free to reject the parables’ message. This means, though, that the parables are ultimately an expression of God’s hiddenness in this world and of the fact that knowledge of God always lays claim to the whole person—that such a knowledge is one with life itself. Knowledge of God only comes through the gift of God’s love becoming visible to you—but this gift too has to be accepted.

God’s sign for men is the Son of Man; it is Jesus himself. And at the deepest level, he is this sign in his Paschal Mystery, in the mystery of His death and resurrection.
 
Proof!!! " and then Jesus groaned and Said, " O faithless generation, How long must I be with you, how long must I endure you?" First and formost we see the proof of God in the creation of the universe . Even the most agnostic can’t ignore the absolute necessity of an uncaused cause in the universe. Basic science teaches that the universe is in motion and to be in motion someone had to put it in motion! Atheist1, Who do you think put it in motion??..batman?? Then Abraham and his wife have a son when there ancient and the descendants of these ppl live on and preach the coming of the messiah. They flee egypt after God sends plagues on the rulers. The fact of this Exodus is marked down in Egyptian records! Then finally this messiah comes in the exact way they had been saying for 4000 years and he did what they said he wud do! The he rose from the dead. After his ascension, the greates persecutor of Christians converts in a split second after encountering Jesus! These facts are also verified by Jewish and pagan historians of the time. In closing Jesus still changes lives today and heals addictions and sicknesses through the power of his resurrection. For faith no proof is needed,but here is a little food for thought!!!
 
Neil_Anthony said:
  1. How would people respond emotionally to God being so close to us? Would we become lazy and stop trying to pray to God, and instead just watch for the notes in the sky? Would we then complain that if God really existed, he would make the notes more meaningful?
Any other reasons?
Click to expand...
Abject ambiguity, perfectly balanced between “believable” and “unbelievable”, is a necessary condition for the progress of man toward learning the consequences of sin (which is why the “classroom” of the world is as it is).

We WOULD become “lazy” if it was incontravertable that God existed. This “laziness” would last for only a relatively short time, though.

We WOULD complain that God is being “obtuse”, but while this would last for a bit longer than the aforesaid “laziness” it would still last for only a short while.

It apparently is not wise to do this particular “test” (providing an actual true “proof” that God exists"), evidenced by the fact that the Most Wise (God) has not done it.

If He DOES do so, then it will be a wise thing to do, and in service of His goal (obviously). 🙂
 
This is an easy question. There is proof all around us, the trees, land, grass, flowers, the ocean all the animals, creatures and us humans and yes even the evil, bad things. I say the evil and bad things because if there wasn’t a God and good why would there be evil and bad trying to deface him. As for the trees and all the worlds beauty, do you really think it started from an explosion? Someone had to make the first chicken to get the egg to make more, same with all animals. I am sure we have evolved but really did we come from apes? If so where are all the inbetweens? I would think there would be every type of the different people that the eveloution chart shows from ape to man. Did we just change overnight so that there is no inbetween? To me its simple, God gives us proof everyday, just open your eyes and look around you.
 
As Ignatius of Loyola put it; “one can recognize God in everything around us – if one might”. But Jesus said in Luke 8:10 'though seeing, they may not see; though hearing, they may not understand.
Then we learn also in Mat 13,15, Mark 4,12 and John 12,40 that some, because they in a harsch and abusive way rejected God, are not allowed to believe, wont have the grace of faith, for “He has blinded their eyes and deadened their hearts, so they can neither see with their eyes, nor understand with their hearts, nor turn—and I would heal them.”

Have a good day
yours
Bruno-Maria-Schulz at Krippenfiguren.com
which is my mail address if you turn the at into @ 😃
 
ilovekittens said:
A parlor trick in the sky would not be unequivocal evidence for the existence of God. Seeing Him in His Blinding Glory would be, though, and, if He really is the Infinite Good, then mere mortal man would have no choice but to follow/worship/love that.

I guess the Satan counterpoint doesn’t weigh much with me because I don’t really believe in him.
Click to expand...
If that is the case then a significant part of your theological thoughts are non-Catholic.

The devil does exist and has been the instigator in the corruption of many souls for a long time. To ignore this, especially if one considers themselves Catholic, really calls into question exactly what Christ came here to accomplish…
Hebrews 2:13-15:
Since the children have flesh and blood, he too shared in their humanity so that by his death he might **destroy him who holds the power of death—that is, the devil— **and free those who all their lives were held in slavery by their fear of death.
Click to expand...
And again…
1 John 3:8:
He who does what is sinful is of the devil, because the devil has been sinning from the beginning. The reason the Son of God appeared was to destroy the devil’s work.
Click to expand...
 
**Isn’t a lot of proof, the firm word of a friend you trust?
How much more than a friend is Jesus Christ?!
If we don’t give room to the thought that Jesus was a teller of fairy-tales, we take the word of Jesus as absolute fact and not fake.

Jesus told us about the Devil very many times – only one out of them, is Matthew 16:18 or 25,41.

What’s the most important rule and highest bid for every enemy or spy: “Hide and make yourself supposed inexistent!”
Oh, the devil does that in an excellent way. Even some Christians don’t believe in the devils existence.
Now – I wonder, how we might explain to Jesus, that we didn’t believe Him, and only believed what we selected as to be true; casting a lot of Jesus statements overboard?!

Let’s meditate if we in this case still are Christians…
**
 
God gave us the ultimate proof in a ‘nothing special’ carpender from the hick town of Nazareth in Galilee.
 
As Catholics, we are to consider the universe and everything in it as proof of God’s existance. If we are to look for scientific proof of God, then we must first acknowledge that it is irrational to start out with a ready made universe and then say it all just happened by some strange circumstance but certainly not by God. This argument is already biased against God. If you want truth, you must be willing to Give God every benifit you give to science.

Here is a dilema for you. Lucifer and his followers sinned in the presence of God, he did not need proof of god’s existance he was right there with him. Yet this was not enough to keep them in line.
What greater insult to God, Heaven and the entire universe could there be. Please don’t underestimate the seriousness of this. No sin may enter into Heaven, yet, despite all the proof any one could ever want, they sinned.

By not having proof, we are given a blessing and a burden at the same time. We sin and make our mistakes in blindness because we are in a state of seperation from God. In this deathly state, complicated by Original sin we wander blindly. And that is exactly the point, we are blind. If we had proof, what justification could we offer for our actions? Cherish this blindness, this lack of “proof” it is a special grace that the evil ones no longer have. If you demand that God prove himself, be careful he just might, then you will have to prove yourself. Unfortunatly, you will not be able to avail yourself of the grace Our Lord has given us, this comes by FAITH alone, not by proof.
 
ilovekittens said:
God is always breaking the laws of reason, if you believe in miracles or virgin birth or resurrection from the dead, etc.

Moreover, God is not known through detached, objective rationality - at least, not the Christian God - but through the subjective experience of "faith."
Click to expand...
You seem to be describing fideism, which is contrary to what the Church teaches. The knowledge of God’s existence through reason is a preamble to faith.

vatican.va/archive/ENG0015/__PA.HTM
Man’s faculties make him capable of coming to a knowledge of the existence of a personal God. But for man to be able to enter into real intimacy with him, God willed both to reveal himself to man, and to give him the grace of being able to welcome this revelation in faith.(so) the proofs of God’s existence, however, can predispose one to faith and help one to see that faith is not opposed to reason.

A detailed read on the subject would be Fides et Ratio.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top