What if I made a mistake becoming Catholic?

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Linkowski said:
I write this with due respect to you and all as fellow human beings made in the image of God and with calm voice…I mentioned in my posting that I do realize that the prayer mentions the name of Jesus. But, we can’t just pull that out of the context of the prayer and then have that phrase about Jesus make everything else that is said in that prayer okay.

You are also str-r-r-r-etching things when you reference Mary’s statement about magnifying the Lord and using that to warrant such prayer TO her.

I am not required to be an idolater either but I can if I like. And the prayer that is written here, I would argue, is idolatry…

Psalm 115:4 Their idols are silver and gold, the work of men’s hands.
5 They have mouths, but they speak not: eyes have they, but they see not:
6 They have ears, but they hear not: noses have they, but they smell not:
7 They have hands, but they handle not: feet have they, but they walk not: neither speak they through their throat.

Now, I realize this is speaking of hand-crafted idols but Mary has all the same attributes as they do form the standpoint of being unable to hear, for instance. Mary is not omnipresent…

A huge extrapolation is made from scripture, and I believe that I have seen it in this page of the thread that Mary was this, and Mary did that…she did this too and that too…then comes the big THEREFORE…“we can pray to her as Pope John Paul II did”. I could do the same thing with others in the Bible if I wish…I could say that Moses did a lot of great things and start praying to him as well based on a huge extrapolation. However, adding this unnecessary step in prayer (TO Mary) is, as I say, unnecessary and, in accordance with scriptural principals, idolatrous and is a show stopper for me. This was one of the huge road blocks for me in returning to the CC, not to mention issues with doctrines surrounding Justification and the role of works in the life of the believer.
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Revelation 5:8

**8When He had taken the book, the four living creatures and the (twenty-four elders fell down before the Lamb, each one holding a harp and golden bowls full of incense, which are the prayers of the saints. **

The 24 elders symbolize the people of God in heaven. The number 24 points to the 12 tribes + 12 apostles and also the 24 divisions of the Old Covenant priesthood (i.e. Christians are a “royal priesthood.”) What are they doing offering our prayers to God, thus serving as a kind of conduit or go-between? Even anti-Catholic CARM admitted the following about this passage:
Second, just because those in heaven can hear the prayers of those on Earth does not mean that is okay to pray to saints. If they can hear the prayers of people it is because grants that to them. Think about it. Can those in heaven hear the prayers uttered without speech? Can they read minds? It is only God who knows all things and only God can grant anyone to hear or know what the prayers are of those who pray in silence. Let’s not give the saints superhuman powers similar to omniscience. Nevertheless, all the text is saying is that they can hear the praise and worship of God.
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Thus they admit the possibility of saints in heaven hearing our prayers directed to God. This does not make them omniscient. We believe that this ability is granted to them by God. If they can hear our prayers to God, can God also allow them to hear our requests for their prayers? We believe the answer is yes.

God Bless,
Michael
 
I have a problem with asking Mary to give us what only God has the power to do.
In the prayer that was posted where he asked to be filled with her…etc…that is what the Spirit does.

Asking for intercession is one thing. Asking for Mary to “fill me” is over the line.

I think there is some confusion about “directing us to Jesus” We are directed to Him…so she has done her job.
Why keep going back for the same thing?

These are the subtle things that unless you look at the wordiing are missed.
The intent is for the BVM to direct our focus on her son…who she is worshipping along with all of heaven.
Since asking for her intercession isn’t required then it isn’'t a problem.

I think this is a legitimate point that has been made.
I know what the Church says. When it appears that is not what is happening it is not to discount what is being said by the church for an explanation.
The real problem is in “infallablity”. You hold that the teachings are infallable, which precludes disagreement.
I do understand respect and veneration. I also know that there are things that God alone can do. Asking the BVM to do or be what she can not do or be is the problem.
If the prayer said “Intercede for me to be filled with the fullness of the Spirit that I might reflect Jesus” fine.
The fruits of the spirit are evidenced in a spirit filled life.
Just an observation. I do not want this to be a slam, in fact, if you read my previous posts you will see that I do understand honor, respect and veneration.

If anyone in the Catholic Church disagrees with this is there recourse?
I believe papal infallabitly is why the Orthodox broke away.
Barbara
 
In the prayer it is still us asking for Mary’s intercession. That we ask to be filled with Mary is to ask that we be more like her; which is pleasing to God.
 
ElizabethPH said:
In the prayer it is still us asking for Mary’s intercession. That we ask to be filled with Mary is to ask that we be more like her; which is pleasing to God.
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Ok I can buy that. Too bad it can’t just say that, or put an explanation underneath.
The whole purpose of studying the lives of Saints is to emulate them.
I see Mary as the “perfect” example of a totally surrendered life.
Barbara
 
mikeledes said:
Revelation 5:8

**8When He had taken the book, the four living creatures and the (twenty-four elders fell down before the Lamb, each one holding a harp and golden bowls full of incense, which are the prayers of the saints. **

The 24 elders symbolize the people of God in heaven. The number 24 points to the 12 tribes + 12 apostles and also the 24 divisions of the Old Covenant priesthood (i.e. Christians are a “royal priesthood.”) What are they doing offering our prayers to God, thus serving as a kind of conduit or go-between? Even anti-Catholic CARM admitted the following about this passage:

Thus they admit the possibility of saints in heaven hearing our prayers directed to God. This does not make them omniscient. We believe that this ability is granted to them by God. If they can hear our prayers to God, can God also allow them to hear our requests for their prayers? We believe the answer is yes.

God Bless,
Michael
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Taking one verse such as this one and making it into what you have at the CC is certainly not warranted (it is a gross over-exaggeration of this verse). I could take a whole lot of scriptures and make all kinds of new doctrines and teachings up. This does not warrant what I see in the CC.
 
Vaclav said:
David,

Have you discussed this with the priest that you mentioned (the one you really trust and who cares for you and your family)?

Remember that this was Pope John Paul II’s personal devotion to Our Lady, though there are similar prayers of consecration to her from early Christians.

From Saint Augustine

Some quotes to consider:

*Through Mary, the miserable obtain Mercy, the graceless find grace, and sinners receive pardon. *- Saint Augustine of Hippo. (354 - 430)

Let us not imagine that we obscure the glory of the Son by the great praise we lavish on His Mother. The more Mary is honored, the greater is the glory of her Son. - Saint Bernard of Clairvaux1090 -1153

The Blessed Virgin Mary is called the Star of the Sea. Those who sail the ocean seas are guided to the port they seek by carefully observing the stars. In the same way, Christians are guided to heavenly glory by keeping their eyes on Mary. - Saint Thomas Aquinas (1225 - 1274)

While remaining the mother of our Judge, Mary is a mother to us, full of mercy. She constitutes our protection. She keeps us close to Christ, and she faithfully takes the matter of our salvation into her charge. - Saint Peter Canisius (1521 - 1597)
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The PP I boarded with in Sydney would quote the same things you just quoted, especially as I am a fan of Saint Augustine. It had already been said, but we can pray to OT Saints. I wanted David as my Confirmation name, but was told to choose another because it is my normal name, so I chose Augustine.

The problem is that I just don’t have the time to read all of the Early Fathers and Aquinas. I have read lots of Augustine. As a Catholic I we place lots of faith in history, don’t we? We rely on “well, it has laways been taught that…” based especially on Peter and his successors the Popes, yet we know from Scripture that when Peter walked with Jesus, he denied him, Jesus said to Peter “get behing thee Satan”, etc. Not really good credentials for a source of infallible truth! Does that strike anyone else as weird? If Peter had a message it is that we can be forgiven!🙂

As for battling aginst Sola S believers, I don’t see the problem. The Magisterium is only supposed to teach what has always been taught, to guard the truth, not to create new truth. And anything that is ruled on is supposed to be Scriptural, either explicitly or implicitly (ie implied). I trust the Church to be able to defend what She teaches based on the Bible, and there are plenty of clever people, like the responders here, who are able to do that. Thanks be to God for you! :clapping:

Justacloserwalk, I fully understand where you are coming from. You just genuinely want to do what God’s will is. Bless you. 🙂 ❤️
 
I have been studying Orthodox Christianity.
That is probably where I will end up.

Barbara
 
Hello David,
Just thought I would throw in my two cents on two of your main issues here:
  1. babies and toddlers in church
  2. the Memorare
    I get hugely annoyed at parents who allow their children to act out in church, especially when I am trying to pray and I am getting blood curdling screems in my ear. I, however, don’t blame the parents. I blame the pastor. He does not have clear guidelines for the parishoners and our crying room sits empty during mass! He seems to be a very a libertine progressive and unfortunately has driven many Catholics away. But I digress. We don’t know your circumstances about how and when you can attend weekly mass. How many services are offered? Is your church far away from your home? Are other Catholic churches available? Look at what you can fix, such as you and your wife attending different services, if possible,until children outgrow the toddler stage. Talk to your priest about a crying room or a special mass for parents and young children. Explore all possibilities that you have some control over. If you do more of the same you get the same, as the old saying goes.
    The Memorare,
    You seem like you are an analytical thinker like me. I can analyze things to death and overthink things. I can “yes but” a subject to death. I returned to Catholicism because I saw so much evil in the world, to put it simply. Like you, I still have questions and irritations. I have to step back sometimes and check myself, such as try not to let myself get annoyed at our pastor. So I pray for him. I would not try to overthink the Memorare, at this point. I am really impressed with how well you argue your points! However, I keep myself in check by reminding myself that I must have the faith of a child, even if at times it only fills that lowly mustard seed. I know God will take care of the rest.
    When the Memorare is finished with the world “left unaided”. I find that interesting. I think all prayers are answered. If people get their prayers answered in the way they WANTED, then they get excited. I believe that Mary does ask Jesus to answer our prayers and that she intercedes, but God answers our prayer on what he knows is best for us, and that is not necessarily what we WANT.
    I enjoyed your comments and your stuggles have made me reflect too. If we stay committed in our beliefs, I think we will be seekers of the truth til the day we die because of our finite bra(name removed by moderator)ower. God bless you and your growing family. You sound like a good,devoted father!
 
You make a lot of assumptions about me. Tsk, tsk. Your “representation” of the Lord Jesus Christ leaves Him dead on the cross. That’s exactly what your crucifix repesents. There He is - a corpse - still on the cross. The cross is empty. He overcame death and by believing in Him you and I have overcome death too. It is as simple as that. “Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and thou shalt be saved.” Acts 16:31.
 
davidarlette said:
This may seem a strange question, but we recently became Catholics which I was very keen to do, but we cannot go to Mass as a family (our toddler plays up and I get angry with my son when people look). In our old protestant churches where contraception is allowed, there are crying rooms and creches, yet in our Parish there is no such thing, so we need to separate. I am sure that is not what God would want, yet I cannot ignore the stares.

I am also having real problems with Our Lady. I actually thought I had advanced a long way. I thought prayers like the Memorare that seemed to place Mary on par with God were rare, but there are lots of them and I am discovering so much Marian devotion that it’s like Jesus is forgotten. I used to defend Catholics when Prots said that catholics worshipped Mary, but now I am in the Church, I have to admit it is actually quite true! More prayers are said to Mary than the Holy Spirit, who is one of the Trinity, or even Jesus it seems…think Hail Marys, for instance. We can pray directly to God in Jesus name (as he said), so although I accept praying for intercession, Our Lady should not be a necessary step unless we want her to be. Terms like Mediatrix of all grace are misleading. What about co-redemptrix?

What’s more “prayer aids” such as statues with kneelers are a violation against the graven images commandment.

I also have a problem with the Magesterium ignoring the “divorce clause” in Matthew for adultery. Not because I am in that situation, but becuase the Church is overruling a specific clear statement of Jesus himself. I trusted the Church would always interpret Scripture but be in harmony with it, not contradict it.

If I follow my conscience, do I become an apostate and therefore damned?
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numero uno…Mary was chosen by God to carry baby Jesus…the protestants hate her…why anyone would want to be part of such a group is mind bogling! Only the RCC is constantly attacked by our leaders…the ruling class.doesnt that tell ya somethin’? Other so called revs etc…who are nothing but racial agitators…Sharpton…wow what a clever name…are always given publicity…paid for their appearnaces on fox etc…their job is to agitate one against the other…when a populace is kept off balance it is easier to brain wash it into submission…ie…no win wars…open borders.tax tax and spend etc…have a nice day
 
Donnelj said:
You make a lot of assumptions about me. Tsk, tsk. Your “representation” of the Lord Jesus Christ leaves Him dead on the cross. That’s exactly what your crucifix repesents. There He is - a corpse - still on the cross. The cross is empty. He overcame death and by believing in Him you and I have overcome death too. It is as simple as that. “Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and thou shalt be saved.” Acts 16:31.
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Christ’s death on the cross is what saves us from our sins; that’s why it’s the most important thing. St. Paul said, “I preach Christ, and Him crucified.” We are simply following in St. Paul’s footsteps.
 
Nino said:
numero uno…Mary was chosen by God to carry baby Jesus…the protestants hate her…why anyone would want to be part of such a group is mind bogling! Only the RCC is constantly attacked by our leaders…the ruling class.doesnt that tell ya somethin’? Other so called revs etc…who are nothing but racial agitators…Sharpton…wow what a clever name…are always given publicity…paid for their appearnaces on fox etc…their job is to agitate one against the other…when a populace is kept off balance it is easier to brain wash it into submission…ie…no win wars…open borders.tax tax and spend etc…have a nice day
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And how does any of this help the original poster. He is from Australia. He probably does not know about or care about this American politics that you have interjected into this thread.
 
“St.” Paul preached the “death, burial AND resurrection” of the Lord Jesus Christ for our salvation. Leaving Him dead on the cross is not the gospel by which one is saved. 1 Cor. 15:1-4 is the simple gospel of salvation and it includes the three items mentioned above. BTW Paul is the first one to proclaim the good news of the cross.
 
Donnelj said:
“St.” Paul preached the “death, burial AND resurrection” of the Lord Jesus Christ for our salvation. Leaving Him dead on the cross is not the gospel by which one is saved. 1 Cor. 15:1-4 is the simple gospel of salvation and it includes the three items mentioned above. BTW Paul is the first one to proclaim the good news of the cross.
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Just curious; have you ever been inside a Catholic Church, or to Mass? It seems as though you are under the impression that the only decoration in the whole place is a Crucifix, and that all we do at Mass is stare at the Crucifix.

We have many images of Christ, at all stages of His life here on earth, including His resurrection and ascension into Heaven. The Mass is a long prayer in five parts that includes every element of our relationship with Christ.
 
I beleive God answers prayer and no matter how many people we get to agree with us, here or in hearven it is God who has the final say.
Prayer is answered in one of three ways: “NO” “YES” or (and I hate this one) “WAIT”

God will not answer prayer that will cause us to sin, lead us into temptation (so this is why I never got that break in tv commercials!) or hinder our spiritual growth.
God wants us holy, not happy. I have found that true happiness, lasting joy and peace come from holiness.
That is my story and I am sticking to it!

Barbara
 
Paul writes: “Wherefore, henceforth know we no man after the flesh; yea, though we have known Christ after the flesh, yet now henceforth know we Him no more.” {after the flesh} 2 Cor. 5:16.

We now know Him as the risen, exalted, Lord of Glory.

We who are saved are “complete in Him.” Col. 2:10
We who are saved have been “forgiven ALL treaspasses…” Col. 2:13.
We who are saved have been sealed with the Holy Spirit of promise. Eph. 1:13.

Nothing can be added to completeness in the Lord Jesus Christ.
 
davidarlette said:
This may seem a strange question, but we recently became Catholics which I was very keen to do, but we cannot go to Mass as a family (our toddler plays up and I get angry with my son when people look). In our old protestant churches where contraception is allowed, there are crying rooms and creches, yet in our Parish there is no such thing, so we need to separate. I am sure that is not what God would want, yet I cannot ignore the stares.

I am also having real problems with Our Lady. I actually thought I had advanced a long way. I thought prayers like the Memorare that seemed to place Mary on par with God were rare, but there are lots of them and I am discovering so much Marian devotion that it’s like Jesus is forgotten. I used to defend Catholics when Prots said that catholics worshipped Mary, but now I am in the Church, I have to admit it is actually quite true! More prayers are said to Mary than the Holy Spirit, who is one of the Trinity, or even Jesus it seems…think Hail Marys, for instance. We can pray directly to God in Jesus name (as he said), so although I accept praying for intercession, Our Lady should not be a necessary step unless we want her to be. Terms like Mediatrix of all grace are misleading. What about co-redemptrix?

What’s more “prayer aids” such as statues with kneelers are a violation against the graven images commandment.

I also have a problem with the Magesterium ignoring the “divorce clause” in Matthew for adultery. Not because I am in that situation, but becuase the Church is overruling a specific clear statement of Jesus himself. I trusted the Church would always interpret Scripture but be in harmony with it, not contradict it.

If I follow my conscience, do I become an apostate and therefore damned?
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Let me start by saying that I sympathize with you. I have two sons who suffer from ADHD and since the age of four! I was told of the diagnosis when I had just been reborn and returned to church after 15 years. I started experiencing the looks and stares from parishioners. Patiently I would take my sons for a walk around the church while mass was undergo. I started to pray to the Virgin Mary for her intercessesion. I would ask her to help me have the same patience she had when she saw her son being crucified. I then learned to never let anyone’s looks at my children’s behavior disturb our healing process at mass. I stuck by the expectancy of patience when I went to church with my children at hand. As years passed, my children outgrew the unstillness and adapted to their pleasant and peaceful surrounding of mass at church. Now both my children are altar servers and participate in a youth group. I am a great believer of what ever your expectations are in life, that’s what you will receive. Patience is a virtue and we all as members of the Body of Christ, must help each other with a look of faith and understanding with one another. God Bless and PRAY ON:thumbsup:
 
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