What if I made a mistake becoming Catholic?

[theAuthor]

Well, I am a bit awestruck! Some fantastic answers here, especially ones providing a Scriptural basis for Catholic beliefs. So a lot of things have been put to rest in my mind.:heaven: Thanks.

Also thanks for the kindness and generosity of heart to all people who have been encouraging. :hug1: There are too many posts to name you all!

Especially helpful were the reference to Genesis 28 (re:contraception), Deuteronomy (re:cherubim, serpent, etc and lifting the mind to God), “My soul magnifies the Lord” and “be it done unto me…” There is lots to read back over including some valuable information I will keep forever. You guys have filled some big holes left after RCIA, and I am actually going to print out this whole thread so I can read it all again later. Once I get a Scriptural basis for something I am happy. Where were you people during RCIA?

As for Will (the toddler), he is a bit too young for the book thing, or the money thing, which we’ve tried. He has the concentration span of a gnat! I’ll try other ideas as I read the posts more thoroughly.

SO thanks to everyone for coming through for me. I have some reading, listening, meditating and praying to do. I would also like to point out that in any Bible I had read, the word fornication had never been used (always unfaithfulness/ infidelity), so going back to the Greek was really important here, and changes everything!

Anyhow, my questions have all been answered to my satisfaction.

In gratitude and love
Dave

 

[puzzleannie]

. I was dumbfounded, these precious were actually worshipping this statue.

congratulations on your supernatural ability to read what is in the hearts of other people and be able to know what they are thinking and feeling just by looking at them. I saw a crowd of tourists around the replica of the Vietnam wall which tours the country, they touched it, found various names, cried, put flowers down, some even kissed it. No doubt they were worshipping those blocks of stone.

I see this discussion has gone light years away from OP so there is not point in participating further.

 

[kbharbert]

KB: They were worshipping that statue. Question: You mention the crucifix; why do we present the risen, exalted Lord of [The] Glory as either a corpse hanging on the cross or as a helpless baby in Mary’s arms? My Lord came down off the cross, He lives. And, He is not a helpless baby in Mary’s arms.

i’m not sure how to answer you.
obviously YOUR ideas and MINE are very different as you see ‘worship’ and ‘i’ see love and respect.
MY Lord ALSO lives. He died, He rose.
BUT…
TIME is a ‘human’ concept.
to GOD…all things are NOW. past, present, future (and all it’s possible paths),
to go further is something i don’t feel qualified to do so i will explain what ‘i’ think and believe…
seeing Christ on the cross reminds ME each and every time i see Him that He is there for ME. today. right now.
Him in His mothers arms reminds me that He was once a just as human as myself. His mother cradling Him and protecting Him; raising Him (along with Joseph) reminds me of all they must have went through. and do. today. right now.
each Mass i am a PART of the last supper, right along with the apostles and the multitudes in Heaven. i am THERE as MY Lord is hung on that cross and sheds His blood for ME.
as a baptist, communion was a supposedly reverent time BUT it was also filled with many who saw it with more of a laid back mindset as well. more talk went on about what people were having for lunch or who was wearing what horrific outfit than what we were there FOR.
at Mass it isn’t LIKE that. we are receiving the Precious Body and Blood of Christ. we are being given those gifts FROM the cross through the priest.

 

[system]

With all due respect for your position: I was there, I know what I saw and heard. I did not “misperceive.”

Quote: “Wherefore, henceforth know we no man after the flesh; yea, though we have known Christ after the flesh, yet now henceforth, know we Him no more.” 2 Cor 5:16

There is no salvation without the resurrection. The crucifix leaves my Savior and Lord dead on the cross.

 

[kbharbert]

[With all due respect for your position: I was there, I know what I saw and heard. I did not “misperceive.”

Quote: “Wherefore, henceforth know we no man after the flesh; yea, though we have known Christ after the flesh, yet now henceforth, know we Him no more.” 2 Cor 5:16

There is no salvation without the resurrection. The crucifix leaves my Savior and Lord dead on the cross.

and this is WHY i love groups like this…we all have differing opinions yet…not one rocket has been launched or bomb dropped.
with love…peace.
[/quote]

 

[Allweather]

[With all due respect for your position: I was there, I know what I saw and heard. I did not “misperceive.”

With all due respect, you claim to “know” what other people are thinking. I doubt you do. You “saw” and “heard” but you did not read minds. Therefore, you cannot possibly know what those people were doing, really. And this gets back to the indoctrinations thing. Your fundamentalist indoctrinations have geared you to interpret certain things in certain ways. Without knowing your particular brand of fundamentalism, I’ll go out on a limb here and assume that just about ANY representation of Mary, and just about ANY veneration of her at all, you would interpret to be worship of a type only accorded to God. So, you’re “seeing” and “hearing” but your mind is not “knowing” because the indoctrinations have clouded your ability to know.

The crucifix leaves my Savior and Lord dead on the cross.

Nonsense. A crucifix is a representation, and nothing more. God, Christ, the Holy Spirit, three persons of the Blessed Trinity, can be represented in many ways. Oh, I know all about the fundamentalist objections to crucifixes. You share that with the Mormons. Of course, the Mormons go a step further and get rid of crosses, too. And that is the road you’re on. You’re uptight over someone else’s representation of Our Lord in a way that leads to adoration. You don’t think it is proper to show Jesus on the cross. That’s fine, follow your instincts, your fundamentalist/indoctrinated instincts, and go where they lead you… But don’t come across saying that Catholics worship Mary, or that a crucifix is just dead Jesus on the tree. There’s much more to it than you’re willing to admit, so far.

I hope you’ll open yourself up to more meditation upon a wider view of Jesus than that he is the all-powerful conquering God of the Universe. No question He is that! But he placed Himself into the womb of Mary and submitted to her parenting. Since He doesn’t do anything by accident, it behooves us to know what He meant by that. Aren’t you interested to know?
[/quote]

 

[kbharbert]

Well, I am a bit awestruck! Some fantastic answers here, especially ones providing a Scriptural basis for Catholic beliefs. So a lot of things have been put to rest in my mind.:heaven: Thanks.

Also thanks for the kindness and generosity of heart to all people who have been encouraging. :hug1: There are too many posts to name you all!

Especially helpful were the reference to Genesis 28 (re:contraception), Deuteronomy (re:cherubim, serpent, etc and lifting the mind to God), “My soul magnifies the Lord” and “be it done unto me…” There is lots to read back over including some valuable information I will keep forever. You guys have filled some big holes left after RCIA, and I am actually going to print out this whole thread so I can read it all again later. Once I get a Scriptural basis for something I am happy. Where were you people during RCIA?

As for Will (the toddler), he is a bit too young for the book thing, or the money thing, which we’ve tried. He has the concentration span of a gnat! I’ll try other ideas as I read the posts more thoroughly.

SO thanks to everyone for coming through for me. I have some reading, listening, meditating and praying to do. I would also like to point out that in any Bible I had read, the word fornication had never been used (always unfaithfulness/ infidelity), so going back to the Greek was really important here, and changes everything!

Anyhow, my questions have all been answered to my satisfaction.

In gratitude and love
Dave

:hug1:

 

[pennymarie]

There is no salvation without the resurrection. The crucifix leaves my Savior and Lord dead on the cross.

There would be no salvation or resurrection without death. The crucifix is where the power is. It is the very essence of salvation. Our sins made the sacrifice necessary so that we could be redeemed. It shows God’s love for us. Jesus laid down His life for us, winning victory over Satan and sin. (John 15:12-13). Looking at the crucifix stirs within us faith, trust in God, hope and love.

Nor is his death merely a historical event. Time as we know it does not affect God. This past “event” exists in eternity, the realm of God, and the actions of Christ are felt throughout time and are ever with us. For us to share in His mission, we must take part in the redemption that was accomplished on the Cross. We are called to participate in Christ’s death, not only in imitation but we are to suffer with him. (1 Peter 2:21, Luke 14:27, 1 Peter 4:13, Gal 2:19b-20, Phil 3:8-11, Romans 8:17) Through His experience on the Cross, we are able to touch the inner heart of God.

The Crucifixtion and Resurrection are part of the ENTIRE paschal mystery which is celebrated throughout the year at the Sunday Mass and through various daily prayers such as the Liturgy of the Hours. The resurrection itself is also not just celebrated on one day - Easter. Rather it is celebrated over 50 days.

No one in the Catholic Church leaves Christ “dead” on the cross but it is through His death AND resurrection that we have life.

God bless

 

[NaturalEnquirer]

There is no salvation without the resurrection. The crucifix leaves my Savior and Lord dead on the cross.

My mom has a high school picture of me on her wall. Does that mean I never graduated high school? Of course not. It’s just a picture to help her remember a significant moment.

Are you seriously suggesting that Catholics don’t believe in the Resurrection?

 

[minkymurph]

So glad for you. Seek and you shall find. Doubts and questioning, lack of understanding or even thinking ‘hold on a minute I can’t do this’ is all part of the conversion process. My older boy sometimes wants to sit in the ‘big Church’ as he calls it and right at the moment of consecration he usually wants to go to the toilet and it can be so embarrassing trying to get past people kneeling but kids will be kids. I remember being out for a meal with friends and my toddler was throwing one of his 50 ampers. A woman at the next table was looking at me and I took him outside for a talking to. When I brought him back he wasn’t much better and I just wanted the ground to open up and swallow me. The woman who had been looking at me walked over when he threw a toy on the ground, picked it up and gave it to him, had a nice little conversation with him and said ‘now be a good boy for your mummy.’ She then turned to me and said ‘I used to do the same thing as you, take my child out when he misbehaved because I was embarrassed. Don’t. He’s just looking for attention and he’s getting it. Let him throw a tantrum and sit and enjoy your meal.’ I know if they are screaming in Mass you have to take them out but people who are staring could be staring out of sympathy. Those who are not are not worth worrying about. Anyone who has had small children has been through exactly the same thing as you. Unfortunately some forget what it was like but many remember.

 

[Vaclav]

I would also like to point out that in any Bible I had read, the word fornication had never been used (always unfaithfulness/ infidelity), so going back to the Greek was really important here, and changes everything!

Ah, I can use some Latin now!

Fornication is from the Latin word fornix which means “arch.” Prostitution was legal in much of the Roman Republic and Empire’s history. One of the more popular gathering places for ladies of the evening was at sporting events near the entrances to the various forums. That typically put them underneath an arch, where they would conduct the terms of the transaction.

Hence fornix eventually became fornication. That is probably why more recent translations of the Bible, which refer back to the Koine Greek, Aramaic, or Hebrew texts would not use the exact term as it did not exist in those languages.

On a separate issue, I notice that in your original post you mention that sometimes there are more prayers to Mary than to Christ (though that is not true of the Mass).

This is a common argument made by Protestants, especially concerning the Rosary.

Consider something if you would? Why is more necessarily mean better? The thinking is that because the Rosary contains more Hail Mary’s then Catholics must place Mary above God.

Aside from the explanations of the content of the Hail Mary and other Marian prayers, which are very worthy in my opinion, I think it is faulty logic.

For example, there are more days of the year that are not Lent or Advent, but does that make those two Liturgical seasons less important? In theory Lazarus died twice (he was raised by Christ) and Jesus died but once - does that somehow diminish Christ’s death on the cross? Of course not.

Please forgive me if I seem hostile, I don’t mean to be at all. I’ve just never understood that particular viewpoint.

 

[kbharbert]

My mom has a high school picture of me on her wall. Does that mean I never graduated high school? Of course not. It’s just a picture to help her remember a significant moment.

Are you seriously suggesting that Catholics don’t believe in the Resurrection?

well…we worship statues, mary, saints and the pope; we PAY for ‘forgiveness’ by buying church windows and…don’t forget the ‘secret’ rituals and handshakes.
catholics believe in the resurrection???


*sorry~~~~i should be more serious, i know. i just get so…annoyed…when people don’t really WANT truthful answers that i end up just giddy at the absurdity of it all.
maybe we could start a NEW thread…the most absurd MYTH regarding the Church and Catholic practices.
anyone game?*

 

[NaturalEnquirer]

well…we worship statues, mary, saints and the pope; we PAY for ‘forgiveness’ by buying church windows and…don’t forget the ‘secret’ rituals and handshakes.
catholics believe in the resurrection???

And the Bingo! Please, please, don’t forget the Bingo!

 

[kbharbert]

Ah, I can use some Latin now!

Fornication is from the Latin word fornix which means “arch.” Prostitution was legal in much of the Roman Republic and Empire’s history. One of the more popular gathering places for ladies of the evening was at sporting events near the entrances to the various forums. That typically put them underneath an arch, where they would conduct the terms of the transaction.

Hence fornix eventually became fornication. That is probably why more recent translations of the Bible, which refer back to the Koine Greek, Aramaic, or Hebrew texts would not use the exact term as it did not exist in those languages.

On a separate issue, I notice that in your original post you mention that sometimes there are more prayers to Mary than to Christ (though that is not true of the Mass).

This is a common argument made by Protestants, especially concerning the Rosary.

Consider something if you would? Why is more necessarily mean better? The thinking is that because the Rosary contains more Hail Mary’s then Catholics must place Mary above God.

Aside from the explanations of the content of the Hail Mary and other Marian prayers, which are very worthy in my opinion, I think it is faulty logic.

For example, there are more days of the year that are not Lent or Advent, but does that make those two Liturgical seasons less important? In theory Lazarus died twice (he was raised by Christ) and Jesus died but once - does that somehow diminish Christ’s death on the cross? Of course not.

Please forgive me if I seem hostile, I don’t mean to be at all. I’ve just never understood that particular viewpoint.

you know, i never really THOUGHT about it but that is EXACTLY why my baptist family thinks i’m worshiping and praying TO Mary instead of ASKING for intercession with the rosary…it’s the ‘there’s more hail mary’s than our fathers’ thing.
what thy never ‘get’ (and i’ve even used PICTURES) are the mysteries involved.
the ‘hail mary’ i’ve always explained as a repeat of the conversations of the angel to mary and the words between mary and elizabeth. the last part is us asking her to pray for us now and at our death.

 

[kbharbert]

And the Bingo! Please, please, don’t forget the Bingo!

how on EARTH could i have FORGOTTEN bingo!!!
*you know~~~~i LIKE bingo. haven’t really played in years…and CERTAINLY don’t want to get into one those 25 cards at a time sort of game…but it’s kinda of relaxing really. is my blue rinse showing?*

 

[Sean_Boyle]

There is no salvation without the resurrection. The crucifix leaves my Savior and Lord dead on the cross.

Paul in his writing which make up todays bible, Paul"preaches the crucified Christ" If you have a problem with that, take it up with St. Paul.

 

[ElizabethPH]

you know, i never really THOUGHT about it but that is EXACTLY why my baptist family thinks i’m worshiping and praying TO Mary instead of ASKING for intercession with the rosary…it’s the ‘there’s more hail mary’s than our fathers’ thing.
what thy never ‘get’ (and i’ve even used PICTURES) are the mysteries involved.
the ‘hail mary’ i’ve always explained as a repeat of the conversations of the angel to mary and the words between mary and elizabeth. the last part is us asking her to pray for us now and at our death.

A friend actually pulled back her hand with a most fearful look on her face when my Mom handed her a rosary. After explaining about it, she still would never touch a rosary let alone pray one. It is so frustrating when things are explained and still misunderstood. But I am glad that this thread has had such a positive affect on the OP and that he is doing better. All this does take time. I’ve read here about how many converts still struggle. I am a cradle Catholic and believe me I have my moments too!

Elizabeth

 

[justacloserwalk]

[With all due respect for your position: I was there, I know what I saw and heard. I did not “misperceive.”

Quote: “Wherefore, henceforth know we no man after the flesh; yea, though we have known Christ after the flesh, yet now henceforth, know we Him no more.” 2 Cor 5:16

There is no salvation without the resurrection. The crucifix leaves my Savior and Lord dead on the cross.

You do not have the ability to read minds. People stand at the Wailing wall in Jerusalem and kiss it and that is never mentioned.
Often we transfer what we would be doing if it were us. In other words, if it were you in their place that is what you would be doing.

Having an empty crucifix is a matter of personal taste, nothing more. I think remembering Christ’s passion is a good idea, don’t you think?

I find our Catholic Bretheren pay more attention to the life of Christ from pre conception on than Protestants do.
Try meditating on one aspect…say the Incarnation…for 15 minutes a day for a week. I promise you will not regret doing it!
The Christian life is deep and rich…if we allow it to be.

Barbara
[/quote]

 

[kbharbert]

A friend actually pulled back her hand with a most fearful look on her face when my Mom handed her a rosary. After explaining about it, she still would never touch a rosary let alone pray one. It is so frustrating when things are explained and still misunderstood. But I am glad that this thread has had such a positive affect on the OP and that he is doing better. All this does take time. I’ve read here about how many converts still struggle. I am a cradle Catholic and believe me I have my moments too!

Elizabeth

that’s both sad AND funny.
when i was little, we had some greek and italian families in our neighborhood. i was always fascinated with their mantillas (for church) and daily headcoverings AND the fact that they seemed to go NOwhere without their rosarys close at hand.
as an adult, praying the rosary each evening with mother angelica, gave me the courage to take the step of rcia. believe me…for a shy person, calling the local parish and even ASKING about it was terrifying.
i’m only a little over a year old as a catholic, and i’m still unsure here and there…but…the rosary (and it’s graces) brought me home.

 

[Linkowski]

you know, i never really THOUGHT about it but that is EXACTLY why my baptist family thinks i’m worshiping and praying TO Mary instead of ASKING for intercession with the rosary…it’s the ‘there’s more hail mary’s than our fathers’ thing.
what thy never ‘get’ (and i’ve even used PICTURES) are the mysteries involved.
the ‘hail mary’ i’ve always explained as a repeat of the conversations of the angel to mary and the words between mary and elizabeth. the last part is us asking her to pray for us now and at our death.

This is a legitimate prayer cited by Catholic on this forum…

Immaculate Conception, Mary, my Mother.
Live in me. Act in me. Speak in and through me.
Think your thoughts in my mind. Love, through my heart.
Give me your dispositions and feelings.
Teach, lead and guide me to Jesus.
Correct, enlighten and expand my thoughts and behavior.
Possess my soul. Take over my entire personality and life.
Replace it with yourself.
Incline me to constant adoration and thanksgiving.
Pray in me and through me.
Let me live in you and keep me in this union always.
– Pope John Paul II

Yes, he mentions Jesus one time in the prayer but that does not warrant, based on the context of scripture, this kind of sacrificing of oneself to Mary as we see here. This is praying TO Mary and not asking for intercession.