What if I made a mistake becoming Catholic?

[Elizabeth_C]

Mary seems to be your biggest concern. I have been watching an EWTN show called “Knowing Mary Through the Bible”. It would be an excellent way for you to get to know and understand Mary. I had already heard some of it from other sources.

Mary always leads us to her son. If you listen to the Rosary prayers you will see this. Mary was “full of grace” because she was made that way in anticipation of bearing the Son of God. She is Blessed because of the “fruit of her womb… JESUS!”

A basic idea for prayer to Mary… think of it ask asking a friend or family member to pray for you. We all do that. Mary, who is alive eternally with her Son in heaven, is the nearest person to him to ask his intervention. Yes, we pray to him (in the Trinity), but we ask his mother to ask him for us as well.

Look back at the Old Testament kings… the king’s mother was granted priviledges others weren’t and was able to ask the king (and usually receive) for favors.

These are a few very shortened ideas that were presented in the series. I think they are in repeats right now and you could still find them. You can also find information on this and other teachings of the church in the Catechism and the new Compendium.

I confess that I do not know the Memorare prayer and cannot comment on that. Don’t let the “practices” at your parish put you off. You do not HAVE to pray to Mary to be Catholic. But if you choose to leave over it, you miss the grace of the Eucharist, the center of the Catholic faith.

Elizabeth

 

[Allweather]

How about the “divorce clause” in Matthew 5:32 ? This is the only New Testament verse that is substantially different in Catholic and Protestant Bibles as far as I am aware.

Here from the King James Version: But I say unto you, That whosoever shall put away his wife, saving for the cause of fornication, causeth her to commit adultery: and whosoever shall marry her that is divorced committeth adultery.

Here from The New American Bible: But I say to you, whoever divorces his wife (unless the marriage is unlawful) causes her to commit adultery, and whoever marries a divorced woman commits adultery.

This is from the New International Version: “But I tell you that anyone who divorces his wife, except for marital unfaithfulness, causes her to become an adulteress…”

The two “protestant” versions certainly appear to be different in meaning than the NAB. I assume that the presence of marital infidelity (on the part of either partner, not just the wife) would make the marriage “unlawful.”

 

[justacloserwalk]

This is from the New International Version: “But I tell you that anyone who divorces his wife, except for marital unfaithfulness, causes her to become an adulteress…”

The two “protestant” versions certainly appear to be different in meaning than the NAB. I assume that the presence of marital infidelity (on the part of either partner, not just the wife) would make the marriage “unlawful.”

Here is the NLT (New Living Translation)
Mat 5:32 But I say that a man who divorces his wife, unless she has been unfaithful, causes her to commit adultery. And anyone who marries a divorced woman commits adultery.
Here is a good link for translations:
blueletterbible.org/

this is what St Paul saysNLT)
command that comes not from me, but from the Lord.[fn1] A wife must not leave her husband.
1Cr 7:11 But if she does leave him, let her remain single or else go back to him. And the husband must not leave his wife.
1Cr 7:12 Now, I will speak to the rest of you, though I do not have a direct command from the Lord. If a Christian man[fn2] has a wife who is an unbeliever and she is willing to continue living with him, he must not leave her.
1Cr 7:13 And if a Christian woman has a husband who is an unbeliever, and he is willing to continue living with her, she must not leave him.
1Cr 7:14 For the Christian wife brings holiness to her marriage, and the Christian husband brings holiness to his marriage. Otherwise, your children would not have a godly influence, but now they are set apart for him.
1Cr 7:15 (But if the husband or wife who isn’t a Christian insists on leaving, let them go. In such cases the Christian husband or wife is not required to stay with them, for God wants his children to live in peace.)
1Cr 7:16 You wives must remember that your husbands might be converted because of you. And you husbands must remember that your wives might be converted because of you.
1Cr 7:17 You must accept whatever situation the Lord has put you in, and continue on as you were when God first called you. This is my rule for all the churches

Barbara

 

[La-Petite-Fleur]

I’m a convert too, and I think this may be common with converts. Before I converted, I thought I knew so much about Catholicism. But a few years afterwords, I learned even more. And it was then that I started having questions… questions to things I never would have even known to ask about in RCIA. I don’t believe that anything that the Catholic Church teaches is contrary to the will of God. I’ve had to learn and struggle with many things until I came to understand the deepest intention of certain things; and only reflecting such things through the Church’s deepest intention was I able to come to terms with things. That’s not to say, of course, that some Catholics don’t take things too far; some take ecumenism too far and make a misuse of something beautiful. And some, as you may have experienced, take Marian devotion to a spiritually unhealthy level. About a year ago I was very bothered about Marian devotion. Not in and of itself, necessarily, but to the degree in which some people take it. And I learned (from several different sources) that to pray to Mary or the Saints more than one prays to Jesus, or to have a higher devotion to them, is imbalenced.

Right now, I myself am having a very big problem with the liberalism that is happening in the church. As a convert, I converted to the Catholic Church as existent for two millennia. But now there are the progressives in parishes and in high positions that are actually trying to change the church into something I didn’t convert to. Just this last sunday, the priest who gave the homily called Catholic traditions “legalistic”. I find them as holy gifts from God, but whatever. He said those who pine for the good old days will inevitably be left behind as the church is ever-changing and progressing into the future (my paraphrasing). He said those who may have problems with change are those who would prefer to kneel during communion and who would also prefer to kneel during the consecration.

But you know what? The Catholic Church says we don’t have to believe in every little thing or prayer that comes from saints, etc. So for instance, I found a Marian prayer from a saint that really, really troubled me; very much. I think it was the Prayer to the Immaculata by St. Maximilian Kolbe. Guess what? It’s not dogma. As a Catholic, you only have to accept what’s dogma, no more, no less. Would it benefit one’s soul to believe in other things, such as the Divine Mercy? Absolutely. But if it causes great interior upset, you don’t have to. You just have to accept the dogma. You don’t have to accept Fatima, Lourdes, or anything else. And although it is dogma to believe in the communion of Saints, you are not forced to pray to saints, or even to Mary. I know others may say it may benefit one’s soul, and that can be true, but do the best you can, and let the Lord guide you.

It’s not easy for converts (I think especially converts from AOG, which is where I grew up). And what complicates the issue are these parishes that dabble in and promote “progressive” things (but that’s another topic all together). I don’t know if this progressive problem is just a liberal American problem or what, but it is not orthodox and at times it is contrary to the teachings of Catholicism… and this dissident progressivism is being passed of as Catholicism in too many places. At mass this last sunday, this was the attitude, and I found I was not in communion with that parish. Because I’m loyal (although some would like to call it traditional, like it’s just another flavor or choice… sigh… I really, really sympathize with Noah).

But back to the point… accept the dogmas. Then after that, accept what the Lord leads you to accept. And take it day by day. In 365 days, who knows how much the Holy Spirit will reveal to us? I also wanted to mention that when I converted, I was blessed to have been part of a very loyal, orthodox church. This was the Catholic church that I knew. But we moved, and… and I discovered a very sad thing: it is not easy to find (in America) a loyal parish. The one nearest to where I relocated practised things that are absolutely condemnable. But this is the issue in any church, Catholic or protestant. So my best advice is to find a good loyal parish, and to accept the dogmas and let the Holy Spirit lead you to the rest, if He so chooses. And God bless you, and best of luck to you and your dear family.

 

[lak611]

This is from the New International Version: “But I tell you that anyone who divorces his wife, except for marital unfaithfulness, causes her to become an adulteress…”

The two “protestant” versions certainly appear to be different in meaning than the NAB. I assume that the presence of marital infidelity (on the part of either partner, not just the wife) would make the marriage “unlawful.”

Here’s the same verse from the Douay-Rheims

Mat 5:32 But I say to you, that whosoever shall put away his wife, excepting the cause of fornication, maketh her to commit adultery: and he that shall marry her that is put away, committeth adultery.

 

[justacloserwalk]

Here’s the same verse from the Douay-Rheims

I think each version pretty much says the same thing.The wording may be slightly different-then none of us are reading it from the Greek.

I think we all got the idea.

Ada

 

[lak611]

I think each version pretty much says the same thing.The wording may be slightly different-then none of us are reading it from the Greek.

I think we all got the idea.

Ada

Here’s the Greek word.

G4202
πορνεία
porneia; from G4203; fornication: - fornication (4), fornications (2), immoralities (1), immorality (16), sexual immorality (1), unchastity (1).

 

[minkymurph]

I would say that if you are sure that you are infallible and the church is not, then it might be wise for you to leave, but if not, you might want to submit to the teaching authority of the Church.

I think you are being a bit harsh here. I don’t think we should advise people to leave the Catholic Church because they question, have doubts or lack understanding no more than a Priest would be told to leave the priesthood if he had doubts about the direction the Church was taking. Many people who convert don’t really know why they converted, they are simply drawn and they respond to the call. I don’t think this person thinks they are infallible, I think they are seeking understanding or they wouldn’t ask. The Catholic faith can take a lot of working out for someone who converts. When Thomas doubted Our Lord showed him his wounds. He didn’t tell him to stop being an Apostle until such times as he could believe. Many of us need to have our faith reaffirmed from time to time. I have also found that Infallibility is not the easiest of things to understand and if you have an inquiring mind, simply accepting it as a fact does not suffice. I have been Catholic for 4 years now and I feel I am only beginning to touch on the deep meaning of infallibilty as well as many other things. Greater understanding develops through discussion, reading, prayer and being involved in the life of the Church. This is what brings us to have faith in the Church and it’s teachings and it doesn’t happen overnight. Even if it did, how could you be sure at a later time you would not question? This is a journey and the person who started this thread sounds to me like they are not refuting what the Church says they are simply trying to understand it.

 

[Greg27]

But back to the point… accept the dogmas. Then after that, accept what the Lord leads you to accept. And take it day by day. In 365 days, who knows how much the Holy Spirit will reveal to us? I also wanted to mention that when I converted, I was blessed to have been part of a very loyal, orthodox church. This was the Catholic church that I knew. But we moved, and… and I discovered a very sad thing: it is not easy to find (in America) a loyal parish. The one nearest to where I relocated practised things that are absolutely condemnable. But this is the issue in any church, Catholic or protestant. So my best advice is to find a good loyal parish, and to accept the dogmas and let the Holy Spirit lead you to the rest, if He so chooses. And God bless you, and best of luck to you and your dear family.

For me I actually find demands to ‘believe’ or ‘accept’ without a good explanation annoying.

I’ve always hated people trying to force beliefs down my throat rather than giving a good explanation as to why I should believe that idea.

For some, myself included, appeals to the authority of the church are not enough. The Church however has a wonderful tradition of combining faith with reason, with using rational argument to try and persuade.

At the same time some things are mysteries, but at the same time it is important for any Catholic to explain clearly, rationally and intelligently why they believe what they believe, rather than always simply appealing to the infallibility of the church, apostolic succession, the infallibility of the Pope, and so on, because a non-Catholic or non-believer will not accept any of these things.

 

[kbharbert]

Just to clear one thing up, if you read what I said, I said most prayers are offered to Mary in our Parish OUTSIDE Mass, not during it. Go back and read it.

One rediculous point: I have never made a statue of my mother and knelt before it and talked to the image of her. I simply call her up on the telephone. We have such a link we are told to the Saints, Jesus, and most amazingly, God the Father.

What do I like about the RCC/ why did I join? It is in my first posts. A priest took me in while I was at my lowest. That man, Fr Michael, was Jesus to me. He didn’t judge me, he didn’t desert me like my family still does, he gave me a “hand up” to get back on my feet. Because he did that I came to believe that Jesus could love me like that too. I’d never been loved like that before. He showed me how God loved me.

If I rang him today, he’d still be able to calm me down. He is quite ecumenical, realistic, Charismatic and Christ-centred. There is nothing he says I disagree with. I still believe in his version of Catholicism, with the emphasis on the God-head.

I expected Catholicism to be the same everywhere, but it is not. I came up against anti-prot bigotry, being called a convert despite already believing, etc.

I love the Eucharist, the revenence of the Mass, the people I know, that the RCC teaches that we have to carry our cross, that we have a definitive authority. I could go on, but my wife wants me to go for a walk. Later.

i was raised baptist but BORN catholic.
by that i mean: even as a child, i KNEW that i was being given soup instead of a feast.
you were fortunate to have such a wonderful priest as a mentor during your childhood and it’s marvelous that he taught you about the faith…it’s also great that he taught you God is the head of all…i AM curious though why he didn’t teach about intercession or the places of Mary and the saints.
i don’t have a statue of my beloved grandmother either but i CERTAINLY ask for her to help me in anyway she can from heaven. i don’t WORSHIP her…i LOVE her…there IS a difference.
being called a ‘convert’ really isn’t a ‘bad’ thing or something to be upset about. you weren’t baptized as a catholic as a baby (making you a cradle catholic) so you ARE a convert even though you’ve always believed.
as for anti-anything bigotry…in ANY denomination there are going to be those who are anti-something. it’s just the way humans are. again…it isn’t something to get all riled up about. either don’t participate in the conversations at all or say that you’ll leave the judging to the Lord in His mercy and leave it at that.
you mentioned your son at Mass…i have a 7 year old with possible adhd. imagine THAT at Mass!!!
know what? he goes anyway.
yes…there ARE times i am absolutely MORTIFIED because he isn’t kneeling when he’s supposed to or he sits down when he’s supposed to stand…BUT…he isn’t ‘disturbing’ anyone else with what he’s doing (thankfully) and MOST people are stunned that he’s even THERE. when i first started taking him over a year ago, there were NO children in Mass at ALL…NOW there are maybe half a dozen in the sanctuary and 3 or 4 in the crying room (they are under age 5 in there). a lot of older people seem to be overjoyed to see him…they like petting him for some reason.
he looks forward to being blessed while i receive the Eucharist and, when he wrecked his bike, he couldn’t wait til Mass was over so he could let Father know of his injuries. (our priest LOVES kids and tries hard to make himself and the church an important part of their lives).
i’m not saying YOU do it but i KNOW “I” sometimes get angry with the 7 year old because i’m worried about what people might be thinking about him or me as his parent.
my first suggestion is: talk it over with your priest. what you might think is distracting others, may not really be a problem.
second: go a bit early and grab a back pew. that way, if your son gets too rowdy, you can step out with him quickly and return when he calms down without disturbing anyone yourself.
just remember…if your son feels that whatever he does at Mass is going to get him in trouble, that’s what he’ll remember later in life.
my largest memories of church as a kid are trying to sit still and not scuff my shoes.

 

[kbharbert]

This is one reason that I am so glad that I am in the parish that I am.

Our priests feel that children are a sign of life from God in the church. If a toddler gets loose and wanders up towards the front, Mom or Dad will retrieve them gently, but there’s no consternation. Mostly there are smiles all around.

If a child cries or gets fussy, they most often are taken to the cry room, but if they are being good otherwise and are happy then it’s no problem.

The body of Christ is a family and children are members of that family as well. Our Lord knows us as we are.

We really need to be patient and compassionate with each other.

in the parish where i took rcia that’s EXACTLY what the priest said!
he also felt that children who DIDN’T whine, fidget or otherwise seem COMPLETELY deaf to our whispered pleading and dire threats of bodily harm were ABNORMAL and should be taken to the local emergency room posthaste!!!

 

[system]

Several years ago I was touring the U.K… I visited a small town where there was a large bronze statue of Mary situated between a Catholic church and an Anglican church. “Pilgrims” were coming by the busloads, they were kneeling before this statue, praying to it, kissing its’ feet, etc. I was dumbfounded, these precious were actually worshipping this statue.

 

[kbharbert]

Several years ago I was touring the U.K… I visited a small town where there was a large bronze statue of Mary situated between a Catholic church and an Anglican church. “Pilgrims” were coming by the busloads, they were kneeling before this statue, praying to it, kissing its’ feet, etc. I was dumbfounded, these precious were actually worshipping this statue.

they may have been. i’m certainly not saying they weren’t.
BUT…
SOME of those people may have simply been showing their love for Mary THROUGH the statue.
often i kiss the crucifix of my rosary but i am not worshipping either the crucifix itself or the beads.
i also kiss a picture of my grandmother or other loved ones. i am simply giving an outward sign of my love for them.

 

[La-Petite-Fleur]

But I didn’t mean it that way Greg. I gave an account of myself, being a convert and sometimes finding myself having similar questions. My suggestion was not to believe or accept without a good explanation, but to pray and let the Holy Spirit guide- because the Holy Spirit is Truth, and why not seek the source of Truth to have the Truth revealed? I’m sorry you’re annoyed, and I understand how you could be, but that wasn’t what I was suggesting. The Holy Spirit is the great revealer of truths, and it isn’t in vain to seek Him .

For me I actually find demands to ‘believe’ or ‘accept’ without a good explanation annoying.

I’ve always hated people trying to force beliefs down my throat rather than giving a good explanation as to why I should believe that idea.

For some, myself included, appeals to the authority of the church are not enough. The Church however has a wonderful tradition of combining faith with reason, with using rational argument to try and persuade.

At the same time some things are mysteries, but at the same time it is important for any Catholic to explain clearly, rationally and intelligently why they believe what they believe, rather than always simply appealing to the infallibility of the church, apostolic succession, the infallibility of the Pope, and so on, because a non-Catholic or non-believer will not accept any of these things.

 

[system]

KB: They were worshipping that statue. Question: You mention the crucifix; why do we present the risen, exalted Lord of [The] Glory as either a corpse hanging on the cross or as a helpless baby in Mary’s arms? My Lord came down off the cross, He lives. And, He is not a helpless baby in Mary’s arms.

 

[Allweather]

KB: They were worshipping that statue.

You can’t possibly know what those people were doing. Your religious indoctrinations cause you to misperceive.

Question: You mention the crucifix; why do we present the risen, exalted Lord of [The] Glory as either a corpse hanging on the cross or as a helpless baby in Mary’s arms? My Lord came down off the cross, He lives. And, He is not a helpless baby in Mary’s arms.

Again, your indoctrinations limit your perspectives, and cause you to get confused. This is a common thing among fundamentalists. I used to be one, so I know a little about how it can be. You should understand that Jesus won’t fit into your particular box that you’ve built for Him. Depicting Jesus as a baby in Mary’s arms is a way of dwelling upon his human-ness, which is as important as His God-ness. And BTW Jesus didn’t “come down off the cross” but rather was taken down by those who love Him. He didn’t crawl into the tomb Himself, but was lovingly prepared and placed there. Dwelling upon these scenes can be a good thing to do. You should try it.

 

[justacloserwalk]

I think kissing the Statue was a sign of respect or veneration.

It may not be my thing, or yours…but it meant something to the people who did it.
I have seen people show emotion over sports and no one ever says a word.
I believe people have been known to riot at soccer matches in Europe.

We can’t judge another persons heart, that is reserved for God alone.
I have heard Catholics make fun of people at BIlly Graham crusades. It means something to the people who act in a certain way.

MYOSB mind your own spiritual business.

Barbara

 

[whatevergirl]

Having complete and perfect faith if you will…doesn’t happen over night. Surrender yourself to our Lord…He will guide you and always keep asking questions…because if you keep them inside, you will never fully learn about your very own faith. I think that it’s unfortunate that people at mass stare…just remember, everyone is human.

Over time…through prayer…and persisting in faith…your doubts will dissipate. Remember…it takes time.

 

[Techno2000]

This may seem a strange question, but we recently became Catholics which I was very keen to do, but we cannot go to Mass as a family (our toddler plays up and I get angry with my son when people look). In our old protestant churches where contraception is allowed, there are crying rooms and creches, yet in our Parish there is no such thing, so we need to separate. I am sure that is not what God would want, yet I cannot ignore the stares.

I am also having real problems with Our Lady. I actually thought I had advanced a long way. I thought prayers like the Memorare that seemed to place Mary on par with God were rare, but there are lots of them and I am discovering so much Marian devotion that it’s like Jesus is forgotten. I used to defend Catholics when Prots said that catholics worshipped Mary, but now I am in the Church, I have to admit it is actually quite true! More prayers are said to Mary than the Holy Spirit, who is one of the Trinity, or even Jesus it seems…think Hail Marys, for instance. We can pray directly to God in Jesus name (as he said), so although I accept praying for intercession, Our Lady should not be a necessary step unless we want her to be. Terms like Mediatrix of all grace are misleading. What about co-redemptrix?

What’s more “prayer aids” such as statues with kneelers are a violation against the graven images commandment.

I also have a problem with the Magesterium ignoring the “divorce clause” in Matthew for adultery. Not because I am in that situation, but becuase the Church is overruling a specific clear statement of Jesus himself. I trusted the Church would always interpret Scripture but be in harmony with it, not contradict it.

If I follow my conscience, do I become an apostate and therefore damned?

Hi davidarlette,
I think you should start out by learning about the story of Divine Mercy:
catholicforum.com/churches/cathteach/divinemercy1.htm
our.homewithgod.com/divinemercy/
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Faustyna_Kowalska

 

[rinkevichjm]

This may seem a strange question, but we recently became Catholics which I was very keen to do, but we cannot go to Mass as a family (our toddler plays up and I get angry with my son when people look). In our old protestant churches where contraception is allowed, there are crying rooms and creches, yet in our Parish there is no such thing, so we need to separate. I am sure that is not what God would want, yet I cannot ignore the stares.

I am also having real problems with Our Lady. I actually thought I had advanced a long way. I thought prayers like the Memorare that seemed to place Mary on par with God were rare, but there are lots of them and I am discovering so much Marian devotion that it’s like Jesus is forgotten. I used to defend Catholics when Prots said that catholics worshipped Mary, but now I am in the Church, I have to admit it is actually quite true! More prayers are said to Mary than the Holy Spirit, who is one of the Trinity, or even Jesus it seems…think Hail Marys, for instance. We can pray directly to God in Jesus name (as he said), so although I accept praying for intercession, Our Lady should not be a necessary step unless we want her to be. Terms like Mediatrix of all grace are misleading. What about co-redemptrix?

What’s more “prayer aids” such as statues with kneelers are a violation against the graven images commandment.

I also have a problem with the Magesterium ignoring the “divorce clause” in Matthew for adultery. Not because I am in that situation, but becuase the Church is overruling a specific clear statement of Jesus himself. I trusted the Church would always interpret Scripture but be in harmony with it, not contradict it.

If I follow my conscience, do I become an apostate and therefore damned?

I understand the problem with your son (and so do most of the other people). I sometimes have three of them acting up. You do have to teach your son proper reverence for God and how to act in church. So don’t think badly of yourself if you find you have to take you son to the back and out of church to give him his lesson. I’ve found that a corner in the sun when it’s 100+ works pretty well (but that only happen 8-10 Sundays of the year) for a quick timeout.

Worship requires sacrifice (most Protestants don’t really worship, they just request, praises and thank (liturgical Protestants may be exceptions)). I don’t know any Catholics who offer Mary sacrifice as if she were a god. They may talk like she has Godly powers because of her influence with her divine Son. Let’s take a proper translation of the Hail Mary.

Be Joyful, Mary! Remaining Engraced, The Lord makes use of thee! Thou art blessed (or result of having been praised) among women and blessed is thy womb’s fruit, Jesus. St. Mary, God’s Mother, pray for us sinners, now, and at our death’s hour.

The first part except for the names Mary and Jesus is from scripture. The second part merely asks our mother in Jesus (Rom 6, Rev 12) to pray for us now and when we are dying. In the Davidic Kingdom the King’s mom always had a lot of power. And we owe Mary a lot for her role in mediating God from His conception in her womb to His birth in the town of bread and even his growing up to manhood. For that alone she should be called Mediatrix.

Statues in order to be idolotrous have to be images of a god. Statues of saints don’t make that cut. And since Jesus is the true God come to us as one of us, His image is not idolotrous.

As for that adultery clause it is a clause that allows for divorce but not remarriage under the more liberal interpretations. The more strict interpretation hold it only allows for divorce if the wedded sex is illicit (i.e. incestuous). While the American bishops used to have a rule not allowing the divorced to participate, it was only a local rule to try to reduce divorce and they ended it long ago - divorcees can receive the sacraments as long as they aren’t remarried or in other mortal sin.

So the answer appears that you need to inform your conscience before you think of leaving.