What if I made a mistake becoming Catholic?

[JustinApologist]

I’m curious, Why did you convert to the CC and what do you like about it and in what ways do you agree with the CC?

I wonder that as well? He could have converted to Eastern Orthodoxy if that was a big deal.

 

[lak611]

I wonder that as well? He could have converted to Eastern Orthodoxy if that was a big deal.

The Orthodox are really not much different regarding Mary and images. They honour the Theotokos (sp?) and although they do not have statues, they have icons.

 

[puzzleannie]

We should be flying to Jesus, or the Comforter. I.

who did Jesus fly to as a child when he needed comfort? if She was good enough for him she is good enough for him. Just because you love your mother and ask her for things, does that mean by definition you do not love your father and do not go to him?

 

[runandsew]

This may seem a strange question, but we recently became Catholics which I was very keen to do, but we cannot go to Mass as a family (our toddler plays up and I get angry with my son when people look). In our old protestant churches where contraception is allowed, there are crying rooms and creches, yet in our Parish there is no such thing, so we need to separate. I am sure that is not what God would want, yet I cannot ignore the stares.

I am also having real problems with Our Lady. I actually thought I had advanced a long way. I thought prayers like the Memorare that seemed to place Mary on par with God were rare, but there are lots of them and I am discovering so much Marian devotion that it’s like Jesus is forgotten. I used to defend Catholics when Prots said that catholics worshipped Mary, but now I am in the Church, I have to admit it is actually quite true! More prayers are said to Mary than the Holy Spirit, who is one of the Trinity, or even Jesus it seems…think Hail Marys, for instance. We can pray directly to God in Jesus name (as he said), so although I accept praying for intercession, Our Lady should not be a necessary step unless we want her to be. Terms like Mediatrix of all grace are misleading. What about co-redemptrix?

What’s more “prayer aids” such as statues with kneelers are a violation against the graven images commandment.

I also have a problem with the Magesterium ignoring the “divorce clause” in Matthew for adultery. Not because I am in that situation, but becuase the Church is overruling a specific clear statement of Jesus himself. I trusted the Church would always interpret Scripture but be in harmony with it, not contradict it.

If I follow my conscience, do I become an apostate and therefore damned?

St. Augustine: He supported inerrancy in a letter to St. Jerome. He wrote:
“On my own part I confess to your charity that it is only to those books of Scripture which are now called canonical that I have learned to pay such honor and reverence as to believe most firmly that none of their writers has fallen into any error. And if in these books I meet anything which seems contrary to truth, I shall not hesitate to conclude either that the text is faulty, or that the translator has not expressed the meaning of the passage, or that I myself do not understand.”

Now how would St. Augustine determine what the truth is that the writer might be in contraction with?

Was it St. Augustine’s own personal interpretation of the Bible, or was it that St. Augustine was following the teaching of the Church to determine what that truth was?

Most of these issues you wrote about are that the church contradicts your own personal opinion of what scripture teaches.

A Catholic should submit to the teaching authority of the Church.
Either it is infallible or it isn’t.
If it isn’t then can you trust any of it’s teaching?
Then you could believe in the trinity, or not.
You could believe that Jesus was God, or not.

The passages which you said the church contradicts are just your opinion of what that passage is teaching.
ie. Divorce.
Your are only looking at the passage in Matthew, that same passage is also written in the other Gospels which don’t give an exception.

You could do a civil divorce in the Catholic Church, but you are still married in the eyes of God, and you can’t remarry.
And that is the message that Jesus is giving us here.

That passage could also be rendered that the you could only divorce if the marriage was unlawful. There are some other threads on this topic going on right now, so I won’t go into detail.

I would say that if you are sure that you are infallible and the church is not, then it might be wise for you to leave, but if not, you might want to submit to the teaching authority of the Church.

 

[jmcrae]

David;

If you think that the Memorare places Mary higher than Jesus, then maybe you have not placed Jesus high enough, yet.

Jesus is not only our friend and guide. (Mary can also be that.) Jesus is our Creator, our Saviour who died for our sins, and our God. (Mary is not that.)

Mary does not have her hands and feet bound up. She, too, can act on our behalf. She cannot create us (only God can do that) and she cannot save us from our sins (again, only God can do that) but she can certainly help us in our troubles, just as any living human being can, and it is not wrong to ask for her help when we need it.

Sometimes, we need human help. For example, if I get a flat tire, I can pray to God to miraculously fix my tire, but I do much better if I not only pray to God in my trouble, but also make a call to my local auto service, and contact a human being who is competent at fixing flat tires.

When I think of praying to Mary, I think of it as being the same sort of thing as making a telephone call to an expert who can give me some practical, human help. But she is not God. She is only a helper.

If your only relationship with God is as a helper (and thus, any other helper seems to you to be usurping His place) then you do not have a correct understanding of God - you need to raise Him up higher. Mary does not need to come lower. God needs to get higher.

 

[Pixie_Dust]

This may seem a strange question, but we recently became Catholics which I was very keen to do, but we cannot go to Mass as a family (our toddler plays up and I get angry with my son when people look). In our old protestant churches where contraception is allowed, there are crying rooms and creches, yet in our Parish there is no such thing, so we need to separate. I am sure that is not what God would want, yet I cannot ignore the stares.

Are they glaring at you and your children, or just looking? I think a lot of times we’re more conscious of the noises our kids are making and can misinterpret someone who turns and looks as if they’re thinking, “I wish that kid would shush!” when what they really may be thinking is, “I remember those days! Lord Bless Them for bringing their children to church!” and wishing that their own children were still children squirming next to them in the pews, and not grown adults who have decided they’re too “sophisticated” for religion at all.

 

[theAuthor]

Just to clear one thing up, if you read what I said, I said most prayers are offered to Mary in our Parish OUTSIDE Mass, not during it. Go back and read it.

One rediculous point: I have never made a statue of my mother and knelt before it and talked to the image of her. I simply call her up on the telephone. We have such a link we are told to the Saints, Jesus, and most amazingly, God the Father.

What do I like about the RCC/ why did I join? It is in my first posts. A priest took me in while I was at my lowest. That man, Fr Michael, was Jesus to me. He didn’t judge me, he didn’t desert me like my family still does, he gave me a “hand up” to get back on my feet. Because he did that I came to believe that Jesus could love me like that too. I’d never been loved like that before. He showed me how God loved me.

If I rang him today, he’d still be able to calm me down. He is quite ecumenical, realistic, Charismatic and Christ-centred. There is nothing he says I disagree with. I still believe in his version of Catholicism, with the emphasis on the God-head.

I expected Catholicism to be the same everywhere, but it is not. I came up against anti-prot bigotry, being called a convert despite already believing, etc.

I love the Eucharist, the revenence of the Mass, the people I know, that the RCC teaches that we have to carry our cross, that we have a definitive authority. I could go on, but my wife wants me to go for a walk. Later.

 

[JoyfulOne]

**If I rang him today, he’d still be able to calm me down. **He is quite ecumenical, realistic, Charismatic and Christ-centred. There is nothing he says I disagree with. I still believe in his version of Catholicism, with the emphasis on the God-head.

That sounds like a very good idea. Why don’t you call him up?

 

[jmcrae]

Just to clear one thing up, if you read what I said, I said most prayers are offered to Mary in our Parish OUTSIDE Mass, not during it.

You are not required to attend any of the events that take place outside of Mass - if the public recitations of the Rosary, the Little Office of the Virgin Mary, the Angelus, or the Tessera, etc., are upsetting you, then just don’t go to them.

 

[jmcrae]

I expected Catholicism to be the same everywhere, but it is not.

The main things are the same. Each parish community has its own “personality” and some are more Marian than others. I happen to prefer the Marian spirituality - I find it to be very vibrant and alive, and more intuitive - not so intellectual.

I came up against anti-prot bigotry, being called a convert despite already believing, etc.

A convert is simply someone who once was lost, but now is found. There is nothing shameful about being a convert - some of us were just not lucky enough to be born into Catholic families. There could be worse things than being a convert.

 

[dalesmom]

David…

I read all of your posts when you were going thru RCIA. You were very upset that you had to attend RCIA and felt that because you lived with Fr. Michael and his group that you shouldn’t have to follow the steps that all other converts do. Now that you have become Catholic, it seems things are once again not going the way YOU want them to go. I will pray for you, but might I also suggest you stop worrying about every detail of your life going the way YOU want it to go and let God tell you how He has planned for your life to go.

It seems with every step you have taken to the CC, you find some stumbling block to put in your own way. Please let God direct you. Put your life in His hands…Thy will not mine Lord…and listen to what He tells you.

I pray for peace in your heart.

 

[Greg27]

I think new converts to Catholicism will have moments when they wonder if it was right to become a Catholic. I’ve certainly felt the same myself, particularly when cradle Catholics (understandably) rebuff me at some point for seeming to question the ‘magesterium’ on some matter.

We converts need to remember cradle Catholics find things we may find questionable as natural, and may have a much more dogmatic approach and regard things we see as questionable as unquestionable truth. We also need to remember we will encounter a variety of views amoungst Catholics themselves, from very conservative (it is my way or the highway) to very flexible.

I agree I also have some issues with Marian devotions and their excesses. I am not that knowledgeable about Marian devotions, and have never practiced them, but I have a lot of reservations about so called ‘apparitions’. Also, sometimes the language for Mary does seem to make her divine, but if one carefully looks at Mary you see a refreshingly positive view of the role of women in faith.

In terms of the laws of the church, it can sometimes seem the church is somewhat legalistic. The church is a well-structured organisation and more hierachical in nature than Protestant churches, so one finds in some ways the environment is more constricting. But also one finds the church allows a lot of flexibility in various situations, especially for pastoral reasons.

The church traditionally has considered breaking away from it a serious sin, and no doubt many Catholics retain this view. The Church has this view as it considers the Church to be the body of Christ on Earth, and things like schism have done enormous damage to the Church on Earth (as the split between Orthodoxy and Catholicism and Protestantism and Catholicism have done). However at the same time if one cannot accept a church teaching which conflicts very seriously with what one’s well informed conscience and sense of truth tells you to be true, then one has to consider whether one can be a faithful member of the church or whether one is better elsewhere. I believe it is better to follow one’s conscience than be a lukewarm Catholic who rejects most or all of what the church officially teaches, and acts all the time in contrary to Catholic teaching, and yet presents oneself to receive the sacraments as if nothing was wrong. I believe if God hates one sin above all others, it is hypocrisy. Above all be true to yourself, as Shakespeare wisely said. So, if one rejects the church teaching on most things, you are basically rejecting the church, so in my own case I would regard myself as no longer a Catholic and would have no option under my conscience but to leave.

But leaving in my view should only ever be done when all other options have been exhausted, when one has properly studied and understood what the church teaches, and one has tried as best one can to be a faithful servant of Christ according to the church’s laws and norms inside the church itself. A catholic, convert or otherwise, should never leave the church simply because we find a teaching hard to accept; we should only leave if following Christ in the church faithfully is simply not possible, and we can’t be a faithful and believing Catholic in good conscience, not so much on one or several things, but in all.

 

[theAuthor]

A convert is simply someone who once was lost, but now is found.

This is what I mean, I was already “saved” as a separated brother of the church, yet “convert” puts me in the same camp relative to Catholics as a heathen or a militant atheist who converts. Convert in the CCC refers to anyone growing in grace. Convert as many Catholics use it is slang, not official teaching. I notice too that interdenominational dialogue appears in “other religions” rather than “inter-denominational.”
This says two things to me:

1. Catholics don’t see their separated brethren as part of the body of Christ.
2. The members of the board expect confrontation rather than fellowship. However I have fellowship with Catholic and non-Catholic Christians alike. The religion is Christianity, not Catholicism.

Greg 27, thanks for your post, it makes good sense. In essence I am part of the RCC not because I think she has every little thing right (I once did though! but RCIA sorted that out), but because she is the best on offer. Perfect in a mystical way as Christ’s body, but not the people. So I am stuck between the BEST Church, and being told it is an absolute package deal and I must accept things that go against my conscience included in that.
PixieDust, I don’t know, sometimes looking, but there are some definite glares. We turned up to one sat night Mass and there were Confirmations. We were so happy because we thought “great! Lots of kids” and yet we still had the woman in front of us turn around to look about 15 times. Is it appropriate to say,“What are you looking at?” I’ve thought of having a piece of paper to give people who stare an explanation that we have no support, no grandparents or babysitters, I don’t want our family to split up for Mass, and also the Church’s teaching on contraception, and the Sunday obligation. Maybe they could put 2 and 2 together.

It seems clear that we need to try a different Parish, one more like the one I was “in” in Sydney.

jmcrae, please read my posts properly before criticising me. The memorare does not put Mary above God. I never thought, nor said that. I said that it seemed to place Mary *on par *with God. It also centres on the “OR sought your intercession.” If it said “and” or “by” - no problem. The Queen Mother of tha Davidic time is a great shadow of Mary. I have no problem (I seem to have to keep saying that) with intercession by the saints on our behalf.

runandsew, I am a huge fan of St Augustine (he’s my patron saint). And so agree with his quote. He is a doctor of the Church though, so he himself came up with many of the things we believe today. I don’t know if he deferred to a higher authority than Scripture, and some other Early Father writings. In fact, I must admit I have been slack because Fr Michael told me to look up online in the Early Fathers any issues I was having trouble with. Augustine was in the 300’s. Was he before the Canon was officially decided, or after?

 

[guanophore]

I wonder that as well? He could have converted to Eastern Orthodoxy if that was a big deal.

The Orthodox also share our devotion, veneration, and copious prayers to Mary.

 

[guanophore]

I also have a problem with the Magesterium ignoring the “divorce clause” in Matthew for adultery. Not because I am in that situation, but becuase the Church is overruling a specific clear statement of Jesus himself. I trusted the Church would always interpret Scripture but be in harmony with it, not contradict it.

With all respect, it is arrogant of us to make judgment that the Magesterium “ignore” anything. It is likely that we are unaware of the great study,prayer, and research that has gone into many of the church teachings. None of them are done frivolously nor do they “ignore” anything Christ taught. The Magesterium will always take into account ALL the passages and Apostolic Traditions in any matter being examined. For example, later in the book of Matt we find this:

Matt 19:3-9

3 And Pharisees came up to him and tested him by asking, “Is it lawful to divorce one’s wife for any cause?” 4 He answered, “Have you not read that he who made them from the beginning made them male and female, 5 and said, ‘For this reason a man shall leave his father and mother and be joined to his wife, and the two shall become one flesh’? 6 So they are no longer two but one flesh. What therefore God has joined together, let not man put asunder.” 7 They said to him, “Why then did Moses command one to give a certificate of divorce, and to put her away?” 8 He said to them, “**For your hardness of heart Moses **allowed you to divorce your wives, but from the beginning it was not so. 9 And I say to you: whoever divorces his wife, except for unchastity, and marries another, commits adultery.”

and in Malachi:
Mal 2:16
16 “For I hate divorce, says the LORD the God of Israel,”

Jesus seems to indicate that divorce even for unfaithfulness was a concession made by Moses because of people’ s hardness of heart. The expectation is that members of the broken marriage remain celibate unless they can be reconciled to each other. It is a very hard teaching, I agree. Christians don’t need this concession any more because we have the Holy Spirit within, and can have a soft heart.

It is also true that our culture is very different now. Women do not have to become homeless or prostitutes just because they don’t have a man.

If I follow my conscience, do I become an apostate and therefore damned?

 

[theAuthor]

A very good explanation and emphasis thankyou. This is the bit that I had trouble with:

9 And I say to you: whoever divorces his wife, except for unchastity, and marries another, commits adultery."

With all respect, it is arrogant of us to make judgment that the Magesterium “ignore” anything. It is likely that we are unaware of the great study,prayer, and research that has gone into many of the church teachings. None of them are done frivolously nor do they “ignore” anything Christ taught. The Magesterium will always take into account ALL the passages and Apostolic Traditions in any matter being examined.

Guanophore, I so agree with you. This is what I expected when I joined the church: the centuries of study, prayer and research, and that is why I joined the Church and trused Her to interpret the Bible for me in the first place. So thanks for restoring my faith on that point :doh2:

But it does seem to say one could remarry if one’s wife was unfaithful, doesn’t it? Can you explain just a bit further, I still read that there. I am not trying to be difficult if you can explain it away for me I will be relieved. Or maybe thinking more about your exegesis will cause the penny to drop. Anyway great post, ta!

 

[VociMike]

Leonie, I have already said above I have no problem with praying to saints for intercession. When you talk of having someone immaculate pray for us, I understand that and take your point. However, intercession is all it is meant to be. Prayers like the Memorare ask for intercession, and also for Mary to grant petitions herself. That is not Our Lady’s role, it is Jesus’ role. To make it Our Lady’s role is to turn Our Lady into an idol before God! It’d probably be really hard, but read that prayer with fresh eyes.

What about all the times the apostles performed signs and wonders, and healed the sick? In Acts 8 for example, we read “Paul visited him and prayed, and putting his hands on him healed him” Paul healed him. Of course it was by the power of Christ, but Paul healed him. Paul answered the petitions to be healed.

If it was OK for the apostles to answer the petitions of people, why is it not OK for those in heaven?

As a Catholic you must come to grips with the generosity of God. He has given his Church on earth the authority to bind and loose heaven, and to forgive sins. Would he give less authority to those perfected in heaven? The story of salvation cannot be understood until we understand that God invites us to participate at every step. That is why he allows Mary and the other saints in heaven to answer petitions.

BTW, every canonized saint has “answered petitions” in the form of those confirmed miracles which had to be attributed to the saint as part of the canonization process. So it’s not just Mary, not by a very long shot.

 

[anamchara]

PixieDust

 

[guanophore]

1. Catholics don’t see their separated brethren as part of the body of Christ.

Some “old school” Catholics, who have been taught that there is no salvation outside the Church, don’t distunguish between the visible and invisible church. This is regretable, and can be corrected with proper catechesis.

I am part of the RCC not because I think she has every little thing right (I once did though! but RCIA sorted that out), but because ***she is the best on offer***.  Perfect in a mystical way as Christ's body, but not the people.  So I am stuck between the BEST Church, and being told it is an absolute package deal and I must accept things that go against my conscience included in that.

Evidently whatever “errors” you encountered in RCIA were not serious enough to prevent going through with it? People are pretty much the same wherever you go. There are not more “perfect” people anywhere but in heaven!

We turned up to one sat night Mass and there were Confirmations.  We were so happy because we thought "great!  Lots of kids" and yet we still had the woman in front of us turn around to look about 15 times.  Is it appropriate to say,"What are you looking at?":confused:

No, I don’t think that would be very charitable. Smile, wave, teach the baby to say “hi”. I have been reading this thread thinking you should pass the baby around. If everyone took two minutes holding baby, they would be too busy to stare, and Mass would be over! I think some people forget that Jesus was a baby once. Did He ever squirm ? Did he ever get loud or fussy?

I’ve thought of having a piece of paper to give people who stare an explanation that we have no support, no grandparents or babysitters, I don’t want our family to split up for Mass, and also the Church’s teaching on contraception, and the Sunday obligation. Maybe they could put 2 and 2 together.

It is a shame you would even have to think about doing this, because they should know that already!

. I said that it seemed to place Mary *on par *with God. It also centres on the “OR sought your intercession.” If it said “and” or “by” - no problem. The Queen Mother of tha Davidic time is a great shadow of Mary. I have no problem (I seem to have to keep saying that) with intercession by the saints on our behalf.

There are some ways in which God really does want to raise us up to be on “par” with HImself. I am not saying that Mary should be worshipped, but I also don’t think that she exalted herself. God exalted her. She is a model of what He wants to do for all of us.

I am a huge fan of St Augustine (he’s my patron saint). And so agree with his quote. He is a doctor of the Church though, so he himself came up with many of the things we believe today. I don’t know if he deferred to a higher authority than Scripture, and some other Early Father writings. In fact, I must admit I have been slack because Fr Michael told me to look up online in the Early Fathers any issues I was having trouble with. Augustine was in the 300’s. Was he before the Canon was officially decided, or after?

Yes, Augustine deferred to the bishop of Rome. Not all his personal opinions were in a greement, but he deferred when it came to official teachings. The canon began to be formed well before it was officially declared, but clearly Augustine used patristic authors that were not included in the canon.

 

[guanophore]

A very good explanation and emphasis thankyou. This is the bit that I had trouble with:

9 And I say to you: whoever divorces his wife, except for unchastity, and marries another, commits adultery."

Guanophore, I so agree with you. This is what I expected when I joined the church: the centuries of study, prayer and research, and that is why I joined the Church and trused Her to interpret the Bible for me in the first place. So thanks for restoring my faith on that point :doh2:

But it does seem to say one could remarry if one’s wife was unfaithful, doesn’t it? Can you explain just a bit further, I still read that there. I am not trying to be difficult if you can explain it away for me I will be relieved. Or maybe thinking more about your exegesis will cause the penny to drop. Anyway great post, ta!

Blessings upon you for your thoughtful struggle on this matter. I agree with you, it does seem from that verse, that one may be free to marry another on account of adultery. However, later He clarified that Moses allowed this because of hardness of heart.

Matt 19:7-9
8 He said to them, "For your hardness of heart Moses allowed you to divorce your wives, but from the beginning it was not so. "

My question is, why use a loophole created for the hard of heart?

When a couple enters a sacramental marriage, the two become one flesh. If other flesh is joined, in the marriage is defiled.

Rom 7:2-3
2 Thus a married woman is bound by law to her husband as long as he lives; but if her husband dies she is discharged from the law concerning the husband. 3 Accordingly, she will be called an adulteress if she lives with another man while her husband is alive. But if her husband dies she is free from that law, and if she marries another man she is not an adulteress."

This passage does not seem to give any “out” for the hard of heart.

We must also take into account the teaching of Paul:

1 Cor 7:27
27 Are you bound to a wife? Do not seek to be free. Are you free from a wife? Do not seek marriage.

He encourages each one to remain in his own state and seek Christ fully in that state.

1 Cor 7:10-11

10 To the married I give charge, not I but the Lord, that the wife should not separate from her husband 11(but if she does, let her remain single or else be reconciled to her husband) - and that the husband should not divorce his wife."

For all we know, it is that praying spouse who has been “put away” that may save the soul of the immoral one…

1 Cor 7:15-16
15 But if the unbelieving partner desires to separate, let it be so; in such a case the brother or sister is not bound. For God has called us to peace. 16 Wife, how do you know whether you will save your husband? Husband, how do you know whether you will save your wife? "

This teaching is related to marriage with an unbeliever, a non-sacramental marriage. It is one of the bases for annulment. It means that a true sacramental marriage did not exist from the beginning.

Just some quick thoughts. I must return later.