What if you already beleive Satan's lie?

[nancy_dalrymple]

Hello,say that couldn’t be it sounds good but John wrote it after Moses and Christ is still alive and his covenent is also. Moses covenent was ended but not cChrist so that couldn’t be. In Daniel:11:14 He say’s in those times meaning they had not happened yet,he was pertaining to the future. I think all of Daniel is prophecy for future times and Rev: they go together.I will look up a few things also did you know Obama is going to stop missel defence?And Stelth Bommers? It’s excess spending.It takes 6years to build a missel. Nancy

 

[nancy_dalrymple]

personally, as i continue to stress,

neither the figurative preterist meaning, nor ANY literal meanings bear any real significance to bigger picture of salvation history.

The MOST meaningful and sensible solution of the two witnesses is the FIGURATIVE meaning that has a dual spiritual fulfillment in the INTERMEDIATE history of both covenants.

That is the most plain and meaningful.

For in the INTERMEDIATE exile, the law and the prophets that were scoffed at by the Jews were vindicated and restored to love.

Just as, not in pagan Rome’s time, but in the INTERMEDIATE Church history, which is NOW, the SCRIPTURE and TRADITION of CATHOLICISM that is scoffed at shall be vindicated and restored epochally in the coming chastisement and age of peace.

So what if people attempt to literally harm Enoch and Elijah or Peter and Paul, and they are harmed in the same manner.

Duh, that is stupid and irrelevant.

If you understand ANYTHING about Catholicism, you know THIS meaning is FAR more important:

If you attempt to HARM any TEACHING from Catholic Scripture or Tradition, you harm yourself by the very same SPIRITUAL degree.

Come on folks, the spiritual matters much more than the physical.

Same thing with fall of Jerusalem. So what if it took LITERALLY five months for Jerusalem to fall. That data, intrinsically, is worthless toward the greater meaning of salvation history.

But the Protestant Rebellion is MAJOR, APOCALYPTIC history, for it involves intrinsic Catholic doctrine, the question of the unity of Christ’s disciples, and that the heretics lost FIVE sources of supernatural life, the sacraments.

That is FAR more important in salvation history and Church history, than minor temporal bs stats of the fall of Jerusalem.

You are not wise, Ryan, and that is why I get royally ticked at you!

Dont you pick on a real child of God! Ryan is right,and another thing you sound like HITLER that’s how he felt about the Jews and Polish ETC. also that’s how Bloody Mary was (prejudist,and Henry the 8th).Look what fools they made out of themselves! When Jesus walked the earth people believed and were baptised before the Catholic church ever started They were Gods annointed too. Nancy. By the way who made up the sacrements? Jesus?

 

[SHW]

personally, as i continue to stress,

neither the figurative preterist meaning, nor ANY literal meanings bear any real significance to bigger picture of salvation history.

Spauline, spauline, spauline,

Please don’t stress. It is not good for blood pressure.

We can always ask “what if” because it really does not negate the spiritual historicism that you are so fond of promoting. It just adds another interesting layer to Scripture interpretation.

And, you do not know for sure, if it will be literal, or not. I have an open mind for considering the possibility of it.

Pax,
SHW

 

[spauline]

Spauline, spauline, spauline,

Please don’t stress. It is not good for blood pressure.

We can always ask “what if” because it really does not negate the spiritual historicism that you are so fond of promoting. It just adds another interesting layer to Scripture interpretation.

And, you do not know for sure, if it will be literal, or not. I have an open mind for considering the possibility of it.

Pax,
SHW

i’m very sorry, I get frustrated. Please forgive me.

I love you, my brother, and you are absolutely right.

I need a rest.:imsorry: :blackeye:

God bless you for treating me gently amidst my temper.


Very sorry,
Scott

 

[ryanoneil]

Hi Ryan,

I think the reason that Moses and Elijah were at the Transfiguration is because Moses represents the Law, and Elijah represents the Prophets, and Jesus is the fulfillment of both.

Matthew 5:17 “Do not think that I came to destroy the Law or the Prophets. I did not come to destroy but to fulfill.”

Luke 16:16 “The law and the prophets were until John. Since that time the kingdom of God has been preached, and everyone is pressing into it.”

Luke 24:44 “Then He said to them, “These are the words which I spoke to you while I was still with you, that all things must be fulfilled which were written in the Law of Moses and the Prophets and the Psalms concerning Me.”

Thank’s for these verses.

I know that they were figurative in the first century fulfillment but I do not know if there were two literal witnesses also. It could not have been Enoch and Elijah, because of the reason you cite. I don’t know if it is possible to find out but we can try.

Was Enoch a prophet also, besides Elijah?

If so, this would make sense for their end time appearances. Perhaps the Jews will recognize that they are prophets from God and then they will repent and believe in Jesus Christ?

Pax,
SHW

I am interested to hear you develop the case further (even though I don’t take the literal approach). The track record has typically been they don’t believe until the prophets pay with their life.

Consider this. Moses is a prophet in his own right.

"A prophet like me will the LORD, your God, raise up for you from among your own kinsmen; to him you shall listen. This is exactly what you requested of the LORD, your God, at Horeb on the day of the assembly, when you said, ‘Let us not again hear the voice of the LORD, our God, nor see this great fire any more, lest we die.’ And the LORD said to me, 'This was well said. I will raise up for them a prophet like you from among their kinsmen, and will put my words into his mouth; he shall tell them all that I command him. (Deut 18:15-18)

Compair this with (John 6:14; 7:40; Acts 3:22; 7:37). Along with the verses you cited above, don’t you think the very phophet and Law giver, who pointed to Christ, should do it for those who still don’t believe. The Old Law needs to die for them still, before they realize that it has been fulfilled in the New Law. (of course I’m not speaking about literal Moses).

If you want to develop literal Enoch, go for it. All this fascinates me.

Peace

 

[SHW]

Thank’s for these verses. Consider this. Moses is a prophet in his own right.

Yes, Moses is a prophet in his own right but He is the** giver of the Law of the Old Covenant** which I think is more important.

I cut and pasted this from agapebiblestudy.com/Revelation/Chapter%2011.htm:

Even though I agree with most biblical scholars that these two witnesses are symbolic there is a very interesting historical connection to this passage in an account given by the historian, Josephus, in his book The Jewish War:

"There was one Jesus, the son of Ananus, a plebeian and a husbandman, who, four years before the war began, and at a time when the city was in very great peace and prosperity, come to that feast whereon it is our custom for everyone to make tabernacles to God in the Temple, began on a sudden cry aloud, ‘A voice from the east, a voice from the west, a voice from the four winds, a voice against Jerusalem and the holy house, a voice against the bridegrooms and the brides, and a voice against this whole people!’

This was his cry, as he went about by day and by night, in all the lanes of the city." Josephus goes on to record that this man was brought before the Roman procurator who had him whipped until his bones were laid bare and yet Jesus never cried out he only answered at every beat of the lash “Woe, woe to Jerusalem!” Procurator Albinus (predecessor of Gessius Florus) pronounced him a harmless madman and released him.

Josephus continued that: “He continued this ditty for 7 years and 5 months, without growing hoarse, or being tired therewith, until the very time that he saw his presage in earnest fulfilled in our siege, when it ceased; for as he was going round upon the wall, he cried out with his utmost force, ‘Woe, woe, to the city again and to the people, and to the holy house!’ And just as he added at the last,- ‘Woe, woe, to myself also!’ there came a stone out of one of the engines, and smote him, and killed him immediately; and as he was uttering the very same presages, he gave up the ghost.” Josephus, The Jewish War, 6.5.3

Perhaps there were actually two such witnesses but Josephus only wrote about one of them? After all, a historian cannot record every detail.

Looks like a literal Enoch is possible.
Pax,
SHW

 

[ryanoneil]

personally, as i continue to stress,

neither the figurative preterist meaning, nor ANY literal meanings bear any real significance to bigger picture of salvation history.

The MOST meaningful and sensible solution of the two witnesses is the FIGURATIVE meaning that has a dual spiritual fulfillment in the INTERMEDIATE history of both covenants.

That is the most plain and meaningful.

For in the INTERMEDIATE exile, the law and the prophets that were scoffed at by the Jews were vindicated and restored to love.

Just as, not in pagan Rome’s time, but in the INTERMEDIATE Church history, which is NOW, the SCRIPTURE and TRADITION of CATHOLICISM that is scoffed at shall be vindicated and restored epochally in the coming chastisement and age of peace.

As always, I think your insight is very valuable, but it is just as plain and meaningful to focus on the actual point in history when the Old Covenant was fulfilled by the New Covenant.

In other words, why focus on the INTERMEDIATE history of both covenants then avoid the exact INTERMEDIATE point that bridges the two together and gives them continuity.

So what if people attempt to literally harm Enoch and Elijah or Peter and Paul, and they are harmed in the same manner.

Duh, that is stupid and irrelevant.

If you understand ANYTHING about Catholicism, you know THIS meaning is FAR more important:

If you attempt to HARM any TEACHING from Catholic Scripture or Tradition, you harm yourself by the very same SPIRITUAL degree.

Come on folks, the spiritual matters much more than the physical.

I agree with you about the SPIRITUAL aspects, but real physical sacrifice can’t be lost in the meaning. Christ’s sacrifice, Jewish martyrs and Christian martyrs are there in a literary and literal way.

Same thing with fall of Jerusalem. So what if it took LITERALLY five months for Jerusalem to fall. That data, intrinsically, is worthless toward the greater meaning of salvation history.

But the Protestant Rebellion is MAJOR, APOCALYPTIC history, for it involves intrinsic Catholic doctrine, the question of the unity of Christ’s disciples, and that the heretics lost FIVE sources of supernatural life, the sacraments.

That is FAR more important in salvation history and Church history, than minor temporal bs stats of the fall of Jerusalem.

Well, it is MAJOR APOCALYPTIC history when things transpire exactly the way or Lord said they would. Don’t get me wrong Scott. I know what you are saying. I just don’t understand why you discount these things so easily.

Like when Christ warned the Church to flee Jerusalem in the Olivet Discourse. His signs and amplifications were exact and the Church remembered His words. Understanding the puzzle of event is what allowed the vulnerable church to avoid being destroyed. Temporal issues are the stuff salvation history is made of.

You are not wise, Ryan, and that is why I get royally ticked at you!

i am sorry, guys for losing my temper, i just get frustrated, please forgive me, thanx,
scott

Don’t worry about it Scott!

Peace

 

[benedictus2]

[sign]HI BEN!!![/sign] It’s about time you came around Now I can ask what do they mean(and I did ask) by the Catholic and PRODS will emerge together? Where is it in scripture?And do you believe that the two prophets will be Enoch and Elijah? God Bless Nancy I mean Witnesses that come back and are dead 3 days and God calls them to come up to him?

Hi Nancy,

I am not quite sure who you mean by PRODS, or do you mean PROTS (short for protestants)? I think what some mean by that is that because we have Christ in common then we are all Christians and so will be saved but I am just guessing here as I am not quite sure which post you are referring to. I have not read many posts in this thread as I have been rather busy.

As to Enoch and Elijah being the two prophets I will have to read up on that. The last days have not really concerned me greatly. I believe it will happen but it is not important to know much about that. I think the here and now is where we encounter God so I pay more attention to that.

But I will read more of the post and let you know later.

 

[benedictus2]

You know all this is a little scarey to me because we realy do not know the answer,all the answers sound right

If you try to figure out everything by yourself then yes, it will be hard. That is why we have the Church. That is why Jesus Christ left us the Catholic Church because He knew this would happen. That people will try to give their own spin on scripture and many will be led astray.

I think the convert who said that the rise of Protestantism was the beginning of the great deception is not far off wrong. Look at what has happened since the “reformation”. People have been led away from Christ’s True Church who Saint Paul says in Timothy is the Pillar and Foundation of Truth.

Truth is important. To emphasize that truth is important Jesus calls the devil the father of lies.

Please go to this link and have a read. Patty Bonds conversion story is beautiful. It is quite remarkable considering that she is the sister of James White, one of the most vitriolic anti-catholic.

[catholic-convert.com/Portals/0/Story%20Patty%20Bonds.pdf](http://www.catholic-convert.com/Portals/0/Story Patty Bonds.pdf)

You didn’t answer my question form the therad below

I am not quite sure which thread you are referring to.

and how are the fires doing in your country? I pray they stop and the one’s or one who set them get’s the death penalty for all the people lost there. Nancy

We have had it really bad this year. It has started to die down but it seems new fires start as others die. Some are even deliberately lit. Australia is very dry and Victoria’s water supply is so low it is scary.

Thank you so much for your prayers.

I can’t remember now but I think you asked about my foot. Thanks for asking. It is not healing too well but I am sure all will be well in God’s time. On the positive side, I am becoming quite a pro with the crutches and my upper arms are now better toned .

 

[ryanoneil]

Perhaps there were actually two such witnesses but Josephus only wrote about one of them? After all, a historian cannot record every detail.

Looks like a literal Enoch is possible.
Pax,
SHW

I read a shortened version of that somewhere and found it fascinating.

Have you ever heard speculation that the two witnesses are Joshua and Zeubbabel?
The sybolism is clearly lifted from Zechariah 4, but this seems more like forshadowing.

 

[acw]

Well, spauline addressed it above. I was assuming the lie of the beast in Revelation, but the original poster I think had something else in mind.

At this point I’m confused too. But it does seem to me that the 2 part lie you refer to is being lived out today too. First part - Oprah and Tolle and everyone who follows that line of thinking… Although that form of thinking has been around a while, it’s just brought to you in new and improved packaging.

I AGREE WHOLEHEARTEDLY!! so many people i work with,non-practicing Catholics,buy into the Gospel of Oprah, whether it is Tolle or whoever–The Secret, the course in miracles, the newest author, et al. YUCK:bigyikes: :twocents:

 

[SHW]

I read a shortened version of that somewhere and found it fascinating.

Have you ever heard speculation that the two witnesses are Joshua and Zeubbabel?
The sybolism is clearly lifted from Zechariah 4, but this seems more like forshadowing.

Hi Ryan,

Never heard that one! I still think if it is literal, then it must be Enoch and Elijah since they have never died a natural death. And the Jews will recognize them as being messengers (prophets) from God because they know that they have never died.

Pax,
SHW

 

[marywel]

I AGREE WHOLEHEARTEDLY!! so many people i work with,non-practicing Catholics,buy into the Gospel of Oprah, whether it is Tolle or whoever–The Secret, the course in miracles, the newest author, et al. YUCK:bigyikes: :twocents:

Well, I call it the faith of RATIONALIZATION & JUSTIFICATION … they find it much easier to rationalize their thoughts according to popular belief (and the PC rationale) in order to justify their actions … very sad.

2Timothy: 4:3,4
For the time will come when people will not tolerate sound doctrine but, following their own desires and insatiable curiosity, will accumulate teachers and will stop listening to the truth and will be diverted to myths.

They console themselves saying that they’re doing alright … and they think that what THEY PERSONALLY BELIEVE will be their salvation. They’re buying into the lie that a “GOOD GOD CANNOT IN LOVE PUNISH PEOPLE” … that’s nearly as good as there’s NO DEVIL lol … I don’t mean to laugh … I pray very hard and shed many tears for the currently lost … we all need to do much penance so that they may turn from their sins and believe the Gospel! … But I think it’s where we are today … oh I could SO go ON here sighs.

 

[nancy_dalrymple]

If you try to figure out everything by yourself then yes, it will be hard. That is why we have the Church. That is why Jesus Christ left us the Catholic Church because He knew this would happen. That people will try to give their own spin on scripture and many will be led astray.

I think the convert who said that the rise of Protestantism was the beginning of the great deception is not far off wrong. Look at what has happened since the “reformation”. People have been led away from Christ’s True Church who Saint Paul says in Timothy is the Pillar and Foundation of Truth.

Truth is important. To emphasize that truth is important Jesus calls the devil the father of lies.

Please go to this link and have a read. Patty Bonds conversion story is beautiful. It is quite remarkable considering that she is the sister of James White, one of the most vitriolic anti-catholic.

[catholic-convert.com/Portals/0/Story%20Patty%20Bonds.pdf](http://www.catholic-convert.com/Portals/0/Story Patty Bonds.pdf)

I am not quite sure which thread you are referring to.

We have had it really bad this year. It has started to die down but it seems new fires start as others die. Some are even deliberately lit. Australia is very dry and Victoria’s water supply is so low it is scary.

Thank you so much for your prayers.

I can’t remember now but I think you asked about my foot. Thanks for asking. It is not healing too well but I am sure all will be well in God’s time. On the positive side, I am becoming quite a pro with the crutches and my upper arms are now better toned .

I E-Mailed to Father Jonathan Morris and I’m waiting for his answer to this question. It may be a while. Also Jesus say’s be prepared,be prepared,it’s all through the bible and if we dont ask questions how do we learn? God Bloes nancy

 

[nancy_dalrymple]

Well, I call it the faith of RATIONALIZATION & JUSTIFICATION … they find it much easier to rationalize their thoughts according to popular belief (and the PC rationale) in order to justify their actions … very sad.

2Timothy: 4:3,4
For the time will come when people will not tolerate sound doctrine but, following their own desires and insatiable curiosity, will accumulate teachers and will stop listening to the truth and will be diverted to myths.

They console themselves saying that they’re doing alright … and they think that what THEY PERSONALLY BELIEVE will be their salvation. They’re buying into the lie that a “GOOD GOD CANNOT IN LOVE PUNISH PEOPLE” … that’s nearly as good as there’s NO DEVIL lol … I don’t mean to laugh … I pray very hard and shed many tears for the currently lost … we all need to do much penance so that they may turn from their sins and believe the Gospel! … But I think it’s where we are today … oh I could SO go ON here sighs.

Marywel Nothing prevails over God Not No one, Not No how.And a Christain is one who believes in the Gospel of Christ the Word of God and Prayer,and non Catholic’s do those things to.I do not believe in Myth the bible is not a Myth and the Moslem Church began the same time as the Catholic did.Check it out. Nancy:thumbsup:

 

[nancy_dalrymple]

I AGREE WHOLEHEARTEDLY!! so many people i work with,non-practicing Catholics,buy into the Gospel of Oprah, whether it is Tolle or whoever–The Secret, the course in miracles, the newest author, et al. YUCK:bigyikes: :twocents:

I never herd of the gospel of Oprah,and I run a food cupboard and dont buy into much at all Nancy FYI
We feed the poor and visit the elderly and witness for the Lord to those who have never thought of him, except at Christmas we cloth the poor,and help the local churches food pantry’s. We help people who have been burned out by fire to get back on their feet,we do not discriminate on race, religion,ethnic, age. We respect all and turn no one away that needs help. I live in a small town but we take care of each other. Those who make a little to much to get food at the Government food pantry, come to us they are poor and working people, black and white, Catholic and Protestant’s and we give of our time freely. Ive been sick and had surgery but I’m there for the people who count on my help as best I can. Love of Christ Nancy, the heathen.

 

[nancy_dalrymple]

Hi Ryan,

Never heard that one! I still think if it is literal, then it must be Enoch and Elijah since they have never died a natural death. And the Jews will recognize them as being messengers (prophets) from God because they know that they have never died.

Pax,
SHW

Hi, that sounds right but if they believe their who you say. Is it them who puts them to death? Do you know? Nancy God Bless

 

[ryanoneil]

Hi Ryan,

Never heard that one! I still think if it is literal, then it must be Enoch and Elijah since they have never died a natural death. And the Jews will recognize them as being messengers (prophets) from God because they know that they have never died.

Pax,
SHW

What if Enoch really died?

intergate.com/~jcordaro/enoch,eliyah,moses.html

This article is a little long, but the last two-thirds of the article talk about Enoch dying.

 

[SHW]

Hi, that sounds right but if they believe their who you say. Is it them who puts them to death? Do you know? Nancy God Bless

Here is the Scripture passage:

Revelation 11:7 “When they finish their testimony, the** beast that ascends out of the bottomless pit** will make war against them, overcome them, and kill them. 8 And their dead bodies will lie in the street of the great city which spiritually is called Sodom and Egypt, where also our Lord was crucified (Jerusalem). 9 Then those from the peoples, tribes, tongues, and nations will see their dead bodies three-and-a-half days, and not allow[d] their dead bodies to be put into graves. 10 And those who dwell on the earth will rejoice over them, make merry, and send gifts to one another, because these two prophets tormented those who dwell on the earth.”

Perhaps this is Satan. I really do not know.

Pax,
SHW

 

[spauline]

Here is the Scripture passage:

Revelation 11:7 “When they finish their testimony, the** beast that ascends out of the bottomless pit** will make war against them, overcome them, and kill them. 8 And their dead bodies will lie in the street of the great city which spiritually is called Sodom and Egypt, where also our Lord was crucified (Jerusalem). 9 Then those from the peoples, tribes, tongues, and nations will see their dead bodies three-and-a-half days, and not allow[d] their dead bodies to be put into graves. 10 And those who dwell on the earth will rejoice over them, make merry, and send gifts to one another, because these two prophets tormented those who dwell on the earth.”

Perhaps this is Satan. I really do not know.

Pax,
SHW

in the figurative meaning, it means an apostasy from the Divine Revelation of God, which has reigned for forty years. The beast is really, in the bigger picture, a symbol of the fallen nature of man that repeatedly arises in human history to take precedence against God’s Will.

And certainly, in the last generation since the sexual revolution, humanity, or a large portion of it, mainly the first world, has scoffed utterly at Scripture and Trad as presented by the Catholic Church and has not bothered to “bury” their witness. They send gifts to one another that the world is finally free of “torture” of religious and moral obligation.

The breath of life entering the witnesses and the fear of those who see them can be a symbol of the coming Minor Chastisement that will serve up unto the world the final fruits of their apostasy and wickedness, and in getting a taste of these, humanity shall begin to realize that what they thought was better for them is not. They will begin to fear God again, and feel the need to depend on Him. And as all the suffering continues, they shall discover their need not only for God in General, but in fact for the fullness of faith and grace, namely, the Catholic Church.

This is the perennial prophecy of the mystics: after the minor apostasy and tribulation, Christians shall be reunited and the Gospel restored and/or extended to the near totality of the world for a glorious age of Catholic peace. That would really be symbolized by the assumption of the Two Witnesses.

hope this helps!