What if you already beleive Satan's lie?

[nancy_dalrymple]

Hi Nancy … you may want to check your references … I went to 3 bibles … and one was specifically KJV … (2 were Catholic lol) they ALL said the same thing for REV: 14:4 ~ 4 “These are they which were not defiled with women; for they are virgins. These are they which follow the Lamb whithersoever he goeth. These were redeemed from among men, being the firstfruits unto God and to the Lamb.” nothing about the 144K or them being in the temple …

Your next 2 references have to do with measuring the temple and the 2 witnesses that will prophesy and be called up after laying dead for 3½ days … at any rate, I think he’s asking not for text on what you said, but how your stated theory is supported by Scripture and where … in other words, how do you prove your stand that the 144K WILL be living only IN the temple etc. … see what I mean?

Hi Marywel, You said it yourself that where ever the lamb goes(Christ) they follow they are there with him always when he brings the new Holy City Jerusalem down they will live there with him Rev:7:3 they will serve him,and have the seal of God on their forheads.REV:11:2 Gentiles outer court given to the Gentiles. Nancy

 

[jlhargus]

It is appointed once for man to die! after Christ died on the cross he spent his 3 day’s going to the abyss to set the captives free Moses,Abraham,Issac Jacob ETC just like he promised. God bless Nancy 2nd Peter

JL: I agree, but not bodily, Christ freed their souls, [Hb10:1 The law is only a shadow of the good things that are coming—not the realities themselves. For this reason it can never, by the same sacrifices repeated endlessly year after year, make perfect those who draw near to worship. …2…3… 4 because **it is impossible for the blood of bulls and goats to take away sins.] No one went to heaven before the resurrection and ascension of our Lord. Because only the atoning blood of Christ can take away sin and make just men perfect. All spirits=disembodied=souls, just or unjust, were captives in Sheol=Hebrew, Hades=Greek, Hell=English before the ascension. They went to one of the chambers Abraham’s Bosom=paradise or the chamber of torment, of Sheol=Hades=Hell, see Lk16:19-31, the rich man and Lazarus, before the resurrection and ascension of our Lord, who opened heaven for the just spirits when he descended to Hell, and preached to them,1Pt3:18 that he might bring us to God, 1Pt3:18-19 & 1Pt4:6 When he ascended, he led a host of captives, the great cloud of witnesses Hb11:1-12-1, [Acts1:9 After he said this, he was taken up before their very eyes, and a cloud hid him from their sight.] Christ took the just spirits, disembodied, souls, in Hell into heaven, now made perfect by the blood of Christ, that cleanses and takes away sin [Eph 4:8…When he ascended on high he led a host of captives,… Eccl 12:7 Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it.] The body=dust returns to the earth and the spirit=soul goes back to God who gave it, for immediate personal judgement. [Hb 9:27 as it is appointed for men to die once and after that comes judgment. Hb12:22 But you have come to Mount Zion…the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem,…23 … to **a judge who is God of all, and the spirits of just men made perfect… ] We know all spirits return to God who gave it. After the ascention we see in Hb9:23, the spirits of just men made perfect, are with our Lord in heaven, the evil spirits are still in Sheol, Hades, Hell, the chamber of torment until the resurrection. After the last judgement at the end of the age Sheol, Hades, Hell AND DEATH, along with demons and evil human beings, body and soul, will be cast alive into the lake of fire, where they die no more, because the lake of fire IS the second death. Rv20:14 Then death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. The lake of fire is the second death. 15 If anyone’s name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire.] In the lake of fire death will have already been swallowed up, as it is thrown in first, even first or last makes no difference, death will have no more power, just as Satan will be swallowed up and have no more power in the lake of fire. Those in the lake of fire do not have a life, but only exist to experience, especially experience what they have inflicted on others. [Hb 9:27 as it is appointed for men to die once.] Not a second time as the lake of fire IS the second death, after resurrection. [Mk 9:48 where their worm does not die, and the fire is not quenched.]

 

[michaelcollins]

The purpose of this post is to get some opinions on the last day’s.There are alot of books out there on the last day’s And scripture plainly tells us that satan will delude the world at the time of the end.And the apostle Paul specifically says God himself will send a "deluding influence"on the world for the purpose of exposing those who have no love of the Truth:

I have heard last days since the 1960’s. I learned it has always been the last days.

The church tells us and teaches we will not know when the end comes so If the church does not know and does not teach it how can individuals know when it will occur?

 

[marywel]

Hi Marywel, You said it yourself that where ever the lamb goes(Christ) they follow they are there with him always when he brings the new Holy City Jerusalem down they will live there with him Rev:7:3 they will serve him,and have the seal of God on their forheads.REV:11:2 Gentiles outer court given to the Gentiles. Nancy

I’m sorry Nancy … I’m really confused or tired from not napping today, but yes, Rev 7:3 talks about sealing the servants of God with a mark on their foreheads … I don’t see how it’s connected to Jerusalem coming down from heaven … I thought your point there was the 144K living ONLY in the temple, or was I mistaken?

 

[nancy_dalrymple]

JL: I agree, but not bodily, Christ freed their souls, [Hb10:1 The law is only a shadow of the good things that are coming—not the realities themselves. For this reason it can never, by the same sacrifices repeated endlessly year after year, make perfect those who draw near to worship. …2…3… 4 because **it is impossible for the blood of bulls and goats to take away sins

.] No one went to heaven before the resurrection and ascension of our Lord. Because only the atoning blood of Christ can take away sin and make just men perfect. All spirits=disembodied=souls, just or unjust, were captives in Sheol=Hebrew, Hades=Greek, Hell=English before the ascension. They went to one of the chambers Abraham’s Bosom=paradise or the chamber of torment, of Sheol=Hades=Hell, see Lk16:19-31, the rich man and Lazarus, before the resurrection and ascension of our Lord, who opened heaven for the just spirits when he descended to Hell, and preached to them,1Pt3:18 that he might bring us to God, 1Pt3:18-19 & 1Pt4:6 When he ascended, he led a host of captives, the great cloud of witnesses Hb11:1-12-1, [Acts1:9 After he said this, he was taken up before their very eyes, and a cloud hid him from their sight.] Christ took the just spirits, disembodied, souls, in Hell into heaven, now made perfect by the blood of Christ, that cleanses and takes away sin [Eph 4:8…When he ascended on high he led a host of captives,… Eccl 12:7 Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it.] The body=dust returns to the earth and the spirit=soul goes back to God who gave it, for immediate personal judgement. [Hb 9:27 as it is appointed for men to die once and after that comes judgment. Hb12:22 But you have come to Mount Zion…the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem,…23 … to **a judge who is God of all, and the spirits of just men made perfect… ] We know all spirits return to God who gave it. After the ascention we see in Hb9:23, the spirits of just men made perfect, are with our Lord in heaven, the evil spirits are still in Sheol, Hades, Hell, the chamber of torment until the resurrection. After the last judgement at the end of the age Sheol, Hades, Hell AND DEATH, along with demons and evil human beings, body and soul, will be cast alive into the lake of fire, where they die no more, because the lake of fire IS the second death. Rv20:14 Then death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. The lake of fire is the second death. 15 If anyone’s name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire.] In the lake of fire death will have already been swallowed up, as it is thrown in first, even first or last makes no difference, death will have no more power, just as Satan will be swallowed up and have no more power in the lake of fire. Those in the lake of fire do not have a life, but only exist to experience, especially experience what they have inflicted on others. [Hb 9:27 as it is appointed for men to die once.] Not a second time as the lake of fire IS the second death, after resurrection. [Mk 9:48 where their worm does not die, and the fire is not quenched.] Boy did you ever say a mouth full you are so on target.So what is your take on the Mark of the Beast? Will people get so poor that we will all have to be identified by a Mark ? do you believe that the Mark is ON the forhead? or IN the forhead? And what do you think it means? I have a version do you? love of Christ Nancy

 

[marywel]

I have heard last days since the 1960’s. I learned it has always been the last days.

The church tells us and teaches we will not know when the end comes so If the church does not know and does not teach it how can individuals know when it will occur?

It’s true that Jesus said that only the Father knows the day and hour … however, He admonished the apostles and followers to know the signs of the times, right?
I just think that 1948 began the countdown when Israel became a nation again … and when I actually heard Ahmahdienajahd (SP?) say what was written over 2K yrs ago, that they want to remove Israel from the face of the earth that her name be no more remembered, it really made me think the time is near. Ezekiel, Daniel and other books seem to be coming together in a way they haven’t been able to up to this time … JMHO

 

[nancy_dalrymple]

I’m sorry Nancy … I’m really confused or tired from not napping today, but yes, Rev 7:3 talks about sealing the servants of God with a mark on their foreheads … I don’t see how it’s connected to Jerusalem coming down from heaven … I thought your point there was the 144K living ONLY in the temple, or was I mistaken?

When Christ set’s up his City these 144thousand were hand picked to serve him and do his will in his Holy temple inside the City I think they will be priest and keepers of the Holy of Holy’s Pure wonderful first fruits. There’s alot I’m going to ask him when I see him because alot of history has been lost throughout time. I will give you more tomorrow for you should rest now pleasent dreams say a prayer for me. God Bless You Always Nancy

 

[marywel]

When Christ set’s up his City these 144thousand were hand picked to serve him and do his will in his Holy temple inside the City I think they will be priest and keepers of the Holy of Holy’s Pure wonderful first fruits. There’s alot I’m going to ask him when I see him because alot of history has been lost throughout time. I will give you more tomorrow for you should rest now pleasent dreams say a prayer for me. God Bless You Always Nancy

It could be that when we pass into eternity (one way or the other lol) that we’ll be a lot smarter than we can imagine … perhaps at that time many things will be revealed to us and we won’t even HAVE to ask
you remain in my prayers Nancy
take care

 

[jlhargus]

Boy did you ever say a mouth full you are so on target.So what is your take on the Mark of the Beast? Will people get so poor that we will all have to be identified by a Mark ? do you believe that the Mark is ON the forhead? or IN the forhead? And what do you think it means? I have a version do you? love of Christ Nancy

JL: The mark has been everthing from Social Security numbers, to bar codes to compter chips. Before SS# I’m sure it was something else. I trust God will let his people know through his Church the pillar and ground of truth, 1Tim3:15, when the time is right. 1Jn 4:6 We are of God Whoever knows God listens to us and he who is not of God does not listen to us **By this we know **the spirit of TRUTH AND the spirit of ERROR [Why base your life on a changing theory every few years. My concern is keeping my lamp filled with oil=Holy Spirit, that way I will always be ready.]

 

[marywel]

JL: TWhoever knows God listens to us and he who is not of God does not listen to us **By this we know **the spirit of TRUTH AND the spirit of ERROR [Why base your life on a changing theory every few years. My concern is keeping my lamp filled with oil=Holy Spirit, that way I will always be ready.]

absolutely

 

[michaelcollins]

When Christ set’s up his City these 144thousand were hand picked to serve him and do his will in his Holy temple inside the City I think they will be priest and keepers of the Holy of Holy’s Pure wonderful first fruits. There’s alot I’m going to ask him when I see him because alot of history has been lost throughout time. I will give you more tomorrow for you should rest now pleasent dreams say a prayer for me. God Bless You Always Nancy

Have you not read or seen the many many books about this subject? Hal____ wrote or has written 16 or so starting in the 60’s. There have been numerous tv shows and even movies, and they have even been combined with ufo theology, in search of ancient astronauts, When growing up the baptist church I attended had a two week course complete with movie, books and lectures on the end of days I believe it was to be by 1971-2. It was always based upon the formation of Israel and the Jewish people returning to the promised land.

I much prefer The RCC interpretation.

 

[juliamajor]

Have you not read or seen the many many books about this subject? Hal____ wrote or has written 16 or so starting in the 60’s. There have been numerous tv shows and even movies, and they have even been combined with ufo theology, in search of ancient astronauts, When growing up the baptist church I attended had a two week course complete with movie, books and lectures on the end of days I believe it was to be by 1971-2. It was always based upon the formation of Israel and the Jewish people returning to the promised land.

I much prefer The RCC interpretation.

The trouble is that most modern Protestant sects seem to forget that the book of Revelation is apocalyptic literature.Hundreds of these types of books were written in Israel in the times when enemies mostly (Greco -Roman)dominated the cultural and political lives of the Jewish people. Apocalyptic literature is a response to seemingly bleak outlook. Apocalyptic literature has extraordinary images, both violent and strange, and uses language that gives vent to the frustrations believers have in a situation where evil seems to overcome good. Apocalypses are books of hope in the face of seemingly impossible odds, that God is not ‘asleep’ and that eventually everything will turn out alright -that good will finally defeat evil. Too much speculation on these images(many which occur in OT)should not be read into. Most of what evangelicals believe about End times comes from a preacher named darby who in the early 1800’s pushed Revelation blowing it out of all proportion in importance.Little of Revelation has to do with the future- like most apocalyptic lit it was meant for the time it was written in to give and inspire hope- to make the oppressed look forward to a future where God brings everything into His order.too many of ideas have been colored by books movies and fundamentalist preachers.Time to go back to Book!

 

[spauline]

Dear Nancy, there are other ways for Catholics to look at the apocalypse than preterism.

Try my site and the end times thread someone posted earlier:

catholicmeditations.org/apocalypse_toc.php

 

[ryanoneil]

I always wondered if their bodies had to go back into their graves. At first I thought that their bodies went to heaven with their souls when Jesus opened the gates of heaven.
**
Navarre Commentary:** The great church writers put forward three possible explanations: (1) it was a matter not of resurrection in the strict sense, but of appearances of these dead people; (2) they were dead people who rose in the way that Lazarus did, and who therefore would die again; (3) their resurrection was definitive, that is glorious, anticipating the final resurrection. …"

SHW

I’ve often wondered about that as well. I don’t know the explanation.

 

[nancy_dalrymple]

The trouble is that most modern Protestant sects seem to forget that the book of Revelation is apocalyptic literature.Hundreds of these types of books were written in Israel in the times when enemies mostly (Greco -Roman)dominated the cultural and political lives of the Jewish people. Apocalyptic literature is a response to seemingly bleak outlook. Apocalyptic literature has extraordinary images, both violent and strange, and uses language that gives vent to the frustrations believers have in a situation where evil seems to overcome good. Apocalypses are books of hope in the face of seemingly impossible odds, that God is not ‘asleep’ and that eventually everything will turn out alright -that good will finally defeat evil. Too much speculation on these images(many which occur in OT)should not be read into. Most of what evangelicals believe about End times comes from a preacher named darby who in the early 1800’s pushed Revelation blowing it out of all proportion in importance.Little of Revelation has to do with the future- like most apocalyptic lit it was meant for the time it was written in to give and inspire hope- to make the oppressed look forward to a future where God brings everything into His order.too many of ideas have been colored by books movies and fundamentalist preachers.Time to go back to Book!

Hi but it is in the book,the bible and it speaks of the return of Christ and discribes all the things that will take place Before his return. He hasn’t returned yet has he? It was ment for all time and the end time when you will See the Lord comming in the air. Nancy

 

[nancy_dalrymple]

Dear Nancy, there are other ways for Catholics to look at the apocalypse than preterism.

Try my site and the end times thread someone posted earlier:

catholicmeditations.org/apocalypse_toc.php

I went to your site and I couldn’t read anymore when i read how the catholics are the true children of god Your god Not mine. And anyone who isn’t catholic is of the devils seed or children so that make me a child of satan.thanks alot for nothing.you will not be so pompus when My Father returns I will witness this nancy

 

[michaelcollins]

Hi but it is in the book,the bible and it speaks of the return of Christ and discribes all the things that will take place Before his return. He hasn’t returned yet has he? It was ment for all time and the end time when you will See the Lord comming in the air. Nancy

Let me see if I can get the rifht tone to this an not sound like a total jerk that I am, Nancy, I first ran across you on a thread about either the book of mormon or the mormon church. I think your posts in that thread were well thought out and contained good information.

of course, we always like those who like us, i.e., the people who agree with our views are much more intelligent than those who disagree, etc.

I, of course am catholic, as you know the church does not teach that all noncatholics are not going to heaven. the church specifically as it should leaves to Christ the ones who will be going to heaven or hell. some catholic members, as is the case with members of other christian denominations take the fact that catholics and the church believe we are the right church and have the answers to most questions are all questions where answers are known right to mean whoever does not believe as we do or worship as we do is lost. The first is logically correct with every religion and denomination, if they did not believe they had the correct answers and beliefs they would change them, the second that those who do not believe the same are lost invades the province of Christ.

Now to the real point of my post- I do not agree with the end time teachings of the protestant faiths, see my prior postings on this subject, however, what has started to fascinate me is although you are not catholic and unlike many you have not come here for a specific answer to questions about what catholics believe and like many, many others you also have not come to convert the heathen lost pagan catholics, so why are you here on a catholic forum?

My thought is the catholic church and catholics provide more intellectual stimulus to those who seek intelligent conversation on issues of faith than the other christian denominations. However, that may be my personal experience and catholic prejudice, which I have been told is quite strong, and often is for those of us raised protestant who as adults converted to catholisim based on not just faith but a logical and intellectual examination of beliefs, history anmd teachings.

Obviously you dont have to answer just very curious.

 

[spauline]

I went to your site and I couldn’t read anymore when i read how the catholics are the true children of god Your god Not mine. And anyone who isn’t catholic is of the devils seed or children so that make me a child of satan.thanks alot for nothing.you will not be so pompus when My Father returns I will witness this nancy

wait, I didn’t say that. I said those are the poles, but there are gray areas.

The poles are FULL children of God, and FULL children of the devil, the Seal and the Mark. In between are gray areas. For example, Protestants are the fifth seal.

It is atheists and relativists that are the devil’s children, not non-Catholic Christians.

 

[nancy_dalrymple]

Let me see if I can get the rifht tone to this an not sound like a total jerk that I am, Nancy, I first ran across you on a thread about either the book of mormon or the mormon church. I think your posts in that thread were well thought out and contained good information.

of course, we always like those who like us, i.e., the people who agree with our views are much more intelligent than those who disagree, etc.

I, of course am catholic, as you know the church does not teach that all noncatholics are not going to heaven. the church specifically as it should leaves to Christ the ones who will be going to heaven or hell. some catholic members, as is the case with members of other christian denominations take the fact that catholics and the church believe we are the right church and have the answers to most questions are all questions where answers are known right to mean whoever does not believe as we do or worship as we do is lost. The first is logically correct with every religion and denomination, if they did not believe they had the correct answers and beliefs they would change them, the second that those who do not believe the same are lost invades the province of Christ.

Now to the real point of my post- I do not agree with the end time teachings of the protestant faiths, see my prior postings on this subject, however, what has started to fascinate me is although you are not catholic and unlike many you have not come here for a specific answer to questions about what catholics believe and like many, many others you also have not come to convert the heathen lost pagan catholics, so why are you here on a catholic forum?

My thought is the catholic church and catholics provide more intellectual stimulus to those who seek intelligent conversation on issues of faith than the other christian denominations. However, that may be my personal experience and catholic prejudice, which I have been told is quite strong, and often is for those of us raised protestant who as adults converted to catholisim based on not just faith but a logical and intellectual examination of beliefs, history anmd teachings.

Obviously you dont have to answer just very curious.

Hello Michaelcollins,I’m glad you asked I realy dont know how I ended up on catholic forum,I might have been on the net and came to this site,before this I have never been on any forum. I was lonely and at first it was hard I got picked on all the time but I ended up likeing alot of the people here. I had forgot alot of things since I was a catholic and wondered what the difference was if any,so I’m here to learn i guess and go over what i know and see what you think and know. I wanted to come back but I have a problem with praying to saints (i usto)years ago.I went to ST Raymonds school when i was younger,I was going to be a NUN, but things changed for me and I never did. All my family are Catholic,and i may come back but I wont do it untill I’m perfectly sure because I dont want to ever switch again. I must be sure,so I have to ask questions. I never remember being so fresh when I was a Catholic.Ive ben insulted, laughted at, my spelling stinks and I know it, Ive had people ask me to leave, people have taken me the wrong way very defensively,and they dont understand me.March 8th I think it will 3 month’s for me.I have gone to bed crying before because of some mean Catholics here,but for some reason I’m still here Good question MR Collins. love of Christ Nancy:thumbsup:

 

[michaelcollins]

Hello Michaelcollins,I’m glad you asked I realy dont know how I ended up on catholic forum,I might have been on the net and came to this site,before this I have never been on any forum. I was lonely and at first it was hard I got picked on all the time but I ended up likeing alot of the people here. I had forgot alot of things since I was a catholic and wondered what the difference was if any,so I’m here to learn i guess and go over what i know and see what you think and know. I wanted to come back but I have a problem with praying to saints (i usto)years ago.I went to ST Raymonds school when i was younger,I was going to be a NUN, but things changed for me and I never did. All my family are Catholic,and i may come back but I wont do it untill I’m perfectly sure because I dont want to ever switch again. I must be sure,so I have to ask questions. I never remember being so fresh when I was a Catholic.Ive ben insulted, laughted at, my spelling stinks and I know it, Ive had people ask me to leave, people have taken me the wrong way very defensively,and they dont understand me.March 8th I think it will 3 month’s for me.I have gone to bed crying before because of some mean Catholics here,but for some reason I’m still here Good question MR Collins. love of Christ Nancy:thumbsup:

Well, I’m glad you are here and I hope you find answers that lead you to the church. I am sometimes one of the mean catholics, I guess my instinct is sometimes defensive because I look at some of the protestant posters and I “know” what they truly believe about catholics. I having grown up protestant know that I was taught catholics worsip idols, worship Mary, pray to man, the pope is the antichrist and the church is the whore of Babylon. Those are the nice things you can print on a christian website.

Because I know what a lot of protestants actually think about catholics when I see a lot of for lack of a better term code words, I get a little ticked. I fully understand and support anyone coming here with questions about the catholic faith or doctrine and I believe the catholic faith has produced more intellectual and great religous philosophors than any other christian denomination by far so it is a great site for just intellectual exchange. Its the ones here to convert the pagans who get on my nerves, because they are rarely honest, if you asked them about the pope being the antichrist or the church the whore of babylon they would act like they had never heard of what you are talking about when in fact, i went to a website one of the posters had directed a person looking for a good “baptist” site and the very poster was there talking of the RCC in those very terms.

Anyway-that is a long explanation of why some of us are sometimes overly rude. Not justified but an explanation. I truly hope you find what you are seeking and you are able to seperate the members from the organization. Like any organization the members of the RCC have faults, but the organisation is wonderful.

I was an agnostic from growing up Baptist. I could not and would not believfe in the God of the Baptist church, when I started going to mass with my wife, she never asked me to convert but I was blessed and God granted me faith and I believed. I have also received another miracle last year whenI was diagnosed with maignant pancreatic cancer. 12 days late the malignant tumors turned into benign tumors. although I still had to have a awful operation to remove the tumors(whipple, look that up it is nbad) but my life was saved by prayer.