What is a considered a Traditional Catholic

[Rich_C]

I agree. I also feel that a traditionalist doesn’t just accept all of the Church teachings throughout history but as Wasserfall said, follows those traditions.

I think maybe many reasons people don’t follow the traditions is because they stopped getting passed on and they don’t know what you are talking about.

I think that is stated very well.

It is the same for me. Some of the other things I find, at least in our parish, where there are many “traditional” Catholics are; parish novenas, some do wear headcoverings, staying for prayers after mass, devotions to the Sacred Heart of Jesus, consecration to Jesus through Mary, using sacramentals at home and more.

I think also there is a love for the ancient prayers that have been lost. I have many vintage Catholic missals and prayer books and todays prayers don’t hold a candle to them.

I, also believe it is rejecting the modern ideas and abuses that are found in society and sometimes in our parishes.

I have found that when posting on other portions of CAF, I am surprised at how many people defend modernist ideas, so I feel maybe that is why many come here to the trad threads.

If you don’t mind me saying so, you’re a great example of a traditional Catholic that normally assists at the OF.

It’s a spirituality and worldview to which many good, faithful Catholics today do not subscribe. I’m not knocking them, but I think they’re really missing out on something great.

 

[clem456]

In my parish and in one of my Bible studies which contains a couple of protestants, I am seen as somewhat of an ultra-orthodox unbending Catholic. Here, not so much, because I do not believe in the superiority of one form of valid worship, or prayer, or liturgical language, over another.
You can’t look at Church teaching and say that it is liberal or conservative or traditional or progressive, it has some aspects that fit the stereotypical profiles of all of it. The labeling is just silly, self serving, and counterproductive, IMO.

To the OP, again, find ways to unity with Catholics, that’s what it’s all about. That doesn’t mean compromising Church teachings ever, but it does mean finding some common ground with people who might seem to disagree with you, or worship differently, or are inarticulate, or lukewarm in their faith. Their is only one Catholic Church which we are all a part of.

 

[thewanderer]

And the two can happen at the same time too!

Blessings!

Oh I definately agree! Traditionalists are also definately traditional Catholics, but they aren’t the only traditional Catholics out there. And to be honest, I think its a really good thing that there are people who make it a personal mission to preserve these practices, because they are such beautiful and useful practices, that many Catholics aren’t even aware of. But it also really isn’t the path for every Catholic.

 

[Vouthon]

I think that there is a real Traditionalism and a false Traditionalism as I explained in another post in another forum on CAF.

Here is what I wrote there, with a few emendations:

It depends how you define Traditionalist. If you mean a preference for the Extraordinary Form of Mass, Latin and old styles of worship/traditions/customs then yes I have no problem with traditionalism and actually support it, since I have a soft spot for the Tridentine Rite myself.

However if you mean by Traditionalism the false, pseudo-Catholicism which posits a rupture between a so-called fantasy-land utopia called “pre-Vatican II” Catholicism and “post-Vatican II” Catholicism then you will find mortal enemy number 1 times a zillion in me. This is honestly no better than Liberals who are bagering for women priests, recognition of homosexual sex and abortion. Both these so-called “Traditionalists” and the Liberals are being unfaithful to the Magisterium and I simply have no time for either of them, sorry.

I cannot agree with you that pre-Vatican II and post-Vatican II documents on EENS are different if by different you mean “doctrine” wise. If you mean difference in how the truths of the Catholic faith are presented, in more flowery, careful prose and respectful, modern, 21st century lingo-talk then yes you are spot on but if you are hinting at changes in actual teaching then, no you are way, way off.

All Vatican II did was present a codification of the past 2,000 years of Catholic tradition - an authentic interpretation if you will. It merely presented the perrenial truths of the Catholic faith in language that was understandable too and catered towards the needs of modern 20th century and now 21st century people. It was a new lick of paint on an already perfectly working automobile, not an entirely new interior to the car.

There are too many falsehoods spread amongst so-called Traditionalists too make me just as wary of their faithfulness to the Magisterium as ultra-liberals who support religious indiferentism, homosexual sex, abortion, women priests and what-not other idiocies.

The Church has always taught that it is the One true Church of Jesus Christ outside of which there can be no salvation. It is every bit as insistent on this front “post-Vatican II” as it was “pre-Vatican II”. And just as before the Council, it teaches that it is possible for people bodily outside of her to spiritually be within her, given the right circumstances, lack of knowledge or social, mental or psychological blocks/experiences and therefore to receive salvation through baptism by implicit desire which consists in following the Will of God as known to the dictates of conscience.

Jesus is the same yesterday, today and tommorrow and so is his Church against which the gates of Sheol shall never prevail.

Her message is ever the same throughout history, only the presentation may change not too mention its progressive understanding of the divine truths already revealed from the Apostolic era

I see the pseudo-Traditionalism rear its ugly head often on this Traditional forum, at least from the rather minute amount of times that I’ve cast my gaze to this particular forum (so who am I to judge? Perhaps I just was unlucky those days and saw a poor representation of the posters here), which is why I so rarely post or even meander within a nano-dot of this part of CAF. Interestingly enough most of the ones preaching this form of pseudo-Traditionalism, nay all of them, have been American and I did hear once that there is a particular tiny segment of quasi-schismatic Catholics in the US who are ardent, pseudo-Traditionalists.

The best person on this forum in my opinion, and the most genuine of all Traditionalists, is JReducation. That man is a legend and a wonderful, God-intoxicated, enlightened soul with a truly Franciscan piety and love for all.

Those seem few and far between within certain segments of CAF’s “Traditionalists”, on whatever forum one might find them, based upon my past experiences (I have seen everything from heretic burning threads to slavery, it is truly appalling, for example, not here but in moral theology forum).

In fact there no Traditional Catholics. Every Catholic who loves his Church and is faithful to the teachings of the Magisterium and applies them in his life as best he can, is adhering to the one, Sacred Tradition passed down from the Apostles. Traditionalism is a mere preference for an older form of liturgy and living one’s Catholic life, not a false, distinct sense of identity from other mainstream Catholics with a different theology, morality or doctrinal understanding. One does have a word for the later - heresy

 

[Rich_C]

I think that there is a real Traditionalism and a false Traditionalism as I explained in another post in another forum on CAF.

Here is what I wrote there, with a few emendations:

I see the pseudo-Traditionalism rear its ugly head often on this Traditional forum, at least from the rather minute amount of times that I’ve cast my gaze to this particular forum (so who am I to judge? Perhaps I just was unlucky those days and saw a poor representation of the posters here), which is why I so rarely post or even meander within a nano-dot of this part of CAF. Interestingly enough most of the ones preaching this form of pseudo-Traditionalism, nay all of them, have been American and I did hear once that there is a particular tiny segment of quasi-schismatic Catholics in the US who are ardent, pseudo-Traditionalists.

The best person on this forum in my opinion, and the most genuine of all Traditionalists, is JReducation. That man is a legend and a wonderful, God-intoxicated, enlightened soul with a truly Franciscan piety and love for all.

Those seem few and far between within certain segments of CAF’s “Traditionalists”, on whatever forum one might find them, based upon my past experiences (I have seen everything from heretic burning threads to slavery, it is truly appalling, for example, not here but in moral theology forum).

Seriously, are you sure you’re not a closet trad? Normal people don’t say “nay.”

 

[TrueLight]

I think that there is a real Traditionalism and a false Traditionalism as I explained in another post in another forum on CAF.

Here is what I wrote there, with a few emendations:

I see the pseudo-Traditionalism rear its ugly head often on this Traditional forum, at least from the rather minute amount of times that I’ve cast my gaze to this particular forum (so who am I to judge? Perhaps I just was unlucky those days and saw a poor representation of the posters here), which is why I so rarely post or even meander within a nano-dot of this part of CAF. Interestingly enough most of the ones preaching this form of pseudo-Traditionalism, nay all of them, have been American and I did hear once that there is a particular tiny segment of quasi-schismatic Catholics in the US who are ardent, pseudo-Traditionalists.

The best person on this forum in my opinion, and the most genuine of all Traditionalists, is JReducation. That man is a legend and a wonderful, God-intoxicated, enlightened soul with a truly Franciscan piety and love for all.

Those seem few and far between within certain segments of CAF’s “Traditionalists”, on whatever forum one might find them, based upon my past experiences (I have seen everything from heretic burning threads to slavery, it is truly appalling, for example, not here but in moral theology forum).

Yeah, yeah. We love you too.

I think that there is a real Traditionalism and a false Traditionalism as I explained in another post in another forum on CAF.

Here is what I wrote there, with a few emendations:

Great post if you say so yourself, heh?

No matter how these threads start, they always end up being a magnet for everyone who has a gripe or actually hate traditonalists.

 

[Vouthon]

Seriously, are you sure you’re not a closet trad? Normal people don’t say “nay.”

Well I did say I have a soft spot for old styles of worship and language I think thats my English literature studies coming back to me, you can’t read Shakespeare and Donne without it rubbing off on you somehow

But that’s a preference, and I know its simply a preference. I have no illusions as to it being otherwise.

 

[thewanderer]

Yeah, yeah. We love you too.

Great post if you say so yourself, heh?

No matter how these threads start, they always end up being a magnet for everyone who has a gripe or actually hate traditonalists.

I’m just curious… how did you see what he said as hateful towards traditionalists?

 

[Vouthon]

Yeah, yeah. We love you too.

Great post if you say so yourself, heh?

No matter how these threads start, they always end up being a magnet for everyone who has a gripe or actually hate traditonalists.

I certainly don’t hate Traditionalists if you mean by that individual Catholics themselves who adhere to this, even if it be the one I call “pseudo”

I love all people, and indeed all my fellow Catholics and I am glad for the diversity in the Church.

However Traditionalism, in my humble opinion, has a perfectly Orthodox form as a preference and an un-Orthodox form as a different theology/doctrine/belief structure within Catholicism founded upon an abhorrence for the Second Vatican Council and devotion to a mythical fairy land that supposedly existed prior to it.

That I honestly do not like. All Catholics share the same faith, we only differ in rite, liturgy, style of worship, customs etc. There is no room for deviant theologies either end of the spectrum whether that be Cafetaria Catholics of an extreme Liberal bent or an extreme Traditionalist bent.

 

[thewanderer]

TrueLight,

I know you’ve had bad experiences, there’s a lot of bad blood between traditionalists and non-traditionalists, but please, please, please try to read people charitably. Just because someone says something that can possibly be taken as a slight against good faithful traditionalist Catholics really doesn’t mean that it was intended to include that offensive meaning. I know it can be hard, you have been burned before and its hard to trust people after having been burned, but there are a lot of genuine well-intentioned people who are not going to phrase things as carefully as you want them to, and just because they don’t phrase things to your liking doesn’t mean they aren’t saying true things without any intention of giving offense. There’s a lot of bad blood that *goes both ways.*The more often traditionalists react harshly to good well-meaning faithful non-traditionalist Catholics the harder it is going to be for this rift to heal. And yes, I fully realize that this goes both ways, but please try to understand how much damage you can do to the image of traditionalism by reacting too quickly and too harshly to things you perceive as offensive.

 

[Rich_C]

However Traditionalism, in my humble opinion, has a perfectly Orthodox form as a preference and an un-Orthodox form as a different theology/doctrine/belief structure within Catholicism founded upon an abhorrence for the Second Vatican Council and devotion to a mythical fairy land that supposedly existed prior to it.

I think you’ve made a false dichotomy. There is a middle ground where one is entirely faithful to the Church and still believes that in modernizing the expression of the Faith more has been lost than gained.

 

[TrueLight]

TrueLight,

I know you’ve had bad experiences, there’s a lot of bad blood between traditionalists and non-traditionalists, but please, please, please try to read people charitably. Just because someone says something that can possibly be taken as a slight against good faithful traditionalist Catholics really doesn’t mean that it was intended to include that offensive meaning. I know it can be hard, you have been burned before and its hard to trust people after having been burned, but there are a lot of genuine well-intentioned people who are not going to phrase things as carefully as you want them to, and just because they don’t phrase things to your liking doesn’t mean they aren’t saying true things without any intention of giving offense. There’s a lot of bad blood that goes both ways.The more often traditionalists react harshly to good well-meaning faithful non-traditionalist Catholics the harder it is going to be for this rift to heal. And yes, I fully realize that this goes both ways, but please try to understand how much damage you can do to the image of traditionalism by reacting too quickly and too harshly to things you perceive as offenses.

Honestly, I don’t appreciate you addressing me on a personal level. I think if you take a look at your posts, it looks like you have been burned quite a bit. You are very angry at Traditonalists.

I am reactive and you are pro-active.

I would suggest you re-read the post. It wasn’t a nice post at all. So I could have chosen to not react and ignored the post. However, you jumping in doesn’t make it better because the poster explained himself and I just let it go.

So the role you’re playing is escalation.

If it’s gotten to a personal level, either PM me or just skip my responses please.

 

[thewanderer]

Honestly, I don’t appreciate you addressing me on a personal level. I think if you take a look at your posts, it looks like you have been burned quite a bit. You are very angry at Traditonalists.

I would suggest you re-read the post. You jumping in doesn’t make it better because the poster explained himself.

I’m sorry that you found my post offensive. I am not at all angry at traditionalists. Although I admit that I have been burned before by. I recognize that there are people within the traditionalist movement who have faults and failings, *just like every other movement on the face of this earth. *I am not singling out traditionalists, nor am I trying to belittle the movement at all. I am looking at the fact that there is a huge rift between traditionalists and non-traditionalists and I am trying to figure out how to fix that rift. *I am trying to show you and any other traditionalist reading this thread one way that traditionalists can help fix this rift. *Both sides view the other with suspicion because both sides have been badly hurt by certain people within the other group. Because of this both sides need to make an extra effort to be understanding and charitable when dealing with each other. One way to do this is for traditionalists to not assume other people hate traditionalism just because they don’t phrase something the way you are used to hearing it. Similarly non-traditionalists should try to get out of the habit of assuming that traditionalists are always judging them or look down on them. We’re human, its hard, but its an effort we are all called to make.

 

[TrueLight]

I’m sorry that you found my post offensive. I am not at all angry at traditionalists. Although I admit that I have been burned before by. I recognize that there are people within the traditionalist movement who have faults and failings, *just like every other movement on the face of this earth. *I am not singling out traditionalists, nor am I trying to belittle the movement at all. I am looking at the fact that there is a huge rift between traditionalists and non-traditionalists and I am trying to figure out how to fix that rift. *I am trying to show you and any other traditionalist reading this thread one way that traditionalists can help fix this rift. *Both sides view the other with suspicion because both sides have been badly hurt by certain people within the other group. Because of this both sides need to make an extra effort to be understanding and charitable when dealing with each other. One way to do this is for traditionalists to not assume other people hate traditionalism just because they don’t phrase something the way you are used to hearing it.

And I would suggest you also address those who posts negative comments.

This is not working. I will ignore your posts from now on. Thanks.

 

[Vouthon]

Well, for my part, I apologize - sincerely - for writing a post that has been perceived as uncharitable. If a moderator wishes to remove it, or discipline me in this respect, then I will accept it openly, since this was not my intention, however strongly worded my post may have appeared.

I recognise that there are, likely, many Catholics who call themselves Traditionalist who are more faithful to Christ than I could ever hope to be in a blue moon.

However, be as that may, I still see a dichotomy between an Orthodox Traditionalism as a preference or way of life, and a pseudo one with a distinct theology/doctrine from mainstream Catholicism and indeed the Second Vatican Council.

I apologize for any offense caused, this is after all a Traditional Forum and I will leave the thread now. Sorry for all offended by my views in this respect.

We all make errors of judgement/action in the passion of our desire to defend the Truth. I am sure that we are all too some degree - no matter Traditionalist or not - guilty of this, and it can filter out into what can be perceived as antagonism or intolerance, when this was certainly not the intent.

Love in Christ

 

[YoungTradCath]

I think you’ve made a false dichotomy. There is a middle ground where one is entirely faithful to the Church and still believes that in modernizing the expression of the Faith more has been lost than gained.

This.

 

[Vouthon]

I think you’ve made a false dichotomy. There is a middle ground where one is entirely faithful to the Church and still believes that in modernizing the expression of the Faith more has been lost than gained.

I think you are wholly correct brother/sister Rich I should always look for a middle ground and you have explained it beautifully. Thank you for this!



I leave now, I really must because I said I would.

 

[TrueLight]

Well, for my part, I apologize - sincerely - for writing a post that has been perceived as uncharitable. If a moderator wishes to remove it, or discipline me in this respect, then I will accept it openly, since this was not my intention, however strongly worded my post may have appeared.

I recognise that there are, likely, many Catholics who call themselves Traditionalist who are more faithful to Christ than I could ever hope to be in a blue moon.

However, be as that may, I still see a dichotomy between an Orthodox Traditionalism as a preference or way of life, and a pseudo one with a distinct theology/doctrine from mainstream Catholicism and indeed the Second Vatican Council.

I apologize for any offense caused, this is after all a Traditional Forum and I will leave the thread now. Sorry for all offended by my views in this respect.

We all make errors of judgement/action in the passion of our desire to defend the Truth. I am sure that we are all too some degree - no matter Traditionalist or not - guilty of this, and it can filter out into what can be perceived as antagonism or intolerance, when this was certainly not the intent.

Love in Christ

No problem. And I apologize for not seeing any good in what you had to say.

 

[thewanderer]

And I would suggest you also address those who posts negative comments.

This is not working. I will ignore your posts from now on. Thanks.

TrueLight, I am honestly deeply sorry for offending you. I hope you can understand that I really don’t mean to be offensive. It is hard for me to know exactly what phrases will come across as offensive to traditionalists and which phrases will not.

Please understand that I really do see why it is easy to take Vouthon’s post as being offensive to traditionalists. As humans we always emphasize the faults we see when we are frustrated by them. And so it is really easy to assume the faults that we see are much more widespread than they actually are, and so talk as though they are, and cause offense to others who realize that this is not the case. This is why the situation between traditionalists and non-traditionalists is such a delicate situation. There are so many good faithful Catholics on both side, but there have been so many wounds inflicted from both sides that it is really hard to have a real dialogue between them. It is too easy to phrase things offensively and to take things as an offense, even where no ill-will exists.

I hope that you can see that I mean no offense, either to you or to the traditionalist movement. All I can do is offer my deepest apologies for not being careful enough in the way I responded to you. I really did not mean to be offensive.

 

[Friar_David_O.Carm]

So if we have “Traditional” Catholics that would then mean that everyone else would need to be “UnTraditional” Catholics.

This is why I hate this sort of self identification.

It places barriers between people that do not need to be there.