What is a Mormon?

[RebeccaJ]

Catholics did murder many non Catholics historically. If you wish to be ignorant to it, then that is your choice.

Pagans also murdered many early Christians. They are both terrible facts in our history.

I am proud to be a Catholic, but not proud of some of her history.

I’m not ignoring bad history, but I do wonder why you ignore the good. For example, why would you say the Catholic Church would have killed Mormons, when by far, the Catholic history of the Church among non-Catholics has been converting, evangelizing and Christianizing. Not by the sword but by the Holy Spirit, who is the normative way the world is converted to Christ.

This isn’t done by telling non-Catholics that their erroneous faith/religion is something it’s not.

 

[Serap]

I’m not ignoring bad history, but I do wonder why you ignore the good. For example, why would you say the Catholic Church would have killed Mormons, when by far, the Catholic history of the Church among non-Catholics has been converting, evangelizing and Christianizing. Not by the sword but by the Holy Spirit.

By pointing out the bad, I was not intentionally ignoring the good that the church has done. The CC has done extremely good works and I’m sure that the Mormon church has done good works too.

We have our saints to account for all the goodness in history.

 

[Stavros]

Your thoughts and feelings are a lot of the reason I want to join the Catholic church! I was transferred for work down to Salt Lake City and that was the first time I attempted to leave the church. I began attending an Episcopal parish and felt the liturgy was extremely beautiful and moving. However my wIfe would absolutely NOT allow me to leave the church. So I stay to keep family unity. I’m no longer anywhere close to a TBM.

My prayers will be with you. There’s not many worse situations to be in than the one you’re in right now.

I would like to suggest to you that for now, find a traditional looking Catholic church (one that looks like this or this, as opposed to this or [this](http://www.cityknown.com/Ma(name removed by moderator)hotos/003/Attractions/1541755549615820.jpg)), and spend some time on your knees praying. Look for the red candle, as the blessed Eucharist, what Catholics believe to be the body, blood soul and divinity of Christ, is traditionally laid in repose in a tabernacle very close to the red candle. I think you’ll find the experience quite illuminating.

Drop the “Dear Heavenly Father, we thank you for this nice day” rote Mormon prayer and just speak from your heart. Tell God your fears, and your love for Him, and your desire to do his will. Ask for his guidance, and thank him for his grace in the precious blood of his Crucifixion. As a Mormon, I’m sure you haven’t had a lot of experience with mediating on Christ’s passion, but simply looking at a beautiful cross can help with understanding what it is that Christ actually did for us when He was here. Then just sit there, quietly, in His presence and listen for a while. That part is the hard part for me and I’m nowhere near as good at it as I’d like to be, but it’s very important. And it’s not something I learned from being a Mormon.

I’ll keep you in my prayers - you have an amazingly difficult journey coming up.

 

[zaffiroborant]

there are many well documented crusades. just go on line and see. it’s terrible and similar to what is now still happening with some religious groups.

You might try reading The New Concise History of the Crusades for a better understanding of the crusades.

 

[SteveVH]

Catholics did murder many non Catholics historically. If you wish to be ignorant to it, then that is your choice.

Pagans also murdered many early Christians. They are both terrible facts in our history.

I am proud to be a Catholic, but not proud of some of her history.

You should be very careful of whose history you read. To say that the autrocities committed on behalf of the Church have been embellished by some is quite the understatement. There are some “historians” that put the number of people killed by the Church at a number greater than the population of Europe at the time. In fact, while admittedly there were autrocities, the numbers are no where near those reported by some.

If I remember correctly, the inquisition, over a 400 year span, resulted in about 2,000 deaths (terrible enough, but not hundreds of thousands or millions as reported by some historians) and these were at the hands of clerics who absolutely abused their power. It was not the policy of the Church to go around killing heretics. The truth is that most people at that time would rather submit to the Church’s authority than the civil authority because they were treated so much better and mercy was shown in many cases.

Our own Karl Keating of CAF fame explains this very well in his book “Catholicism and Fundamentalism” which I highly recommend. You should check it out.

 

[RebeccaJ]

Easy there, I think Serap went down that path, trying to teach me a lesson, as it were.

I don’t see a reason to sugar coat Mormonism, as some do here (which I will never understand). The sugar coating comes at the price of reducing faith to moralism, emotionalism and relativism. None of these things are faith, or fruits of faith.

 

[SteveVH]

Easy there, I think Serap went down that path, trying to teach me a lesson, as it were.

I don’t see a reason to sugar coat Mormonism, as some do here (which I will never understand). The sugar coating comes at the price of reducing faith to moralism, emotionalism and relativism. None of these things are faith, or fruits of faith.

A wonderful priest and friend of mine (now deceased) once told me that “knowledge makes a bloody entrance”. I, for one, greatly appreciate the knowledge of Mormonism you bring to this forum. I believe you are telling it straight and I have never seen anything you have written about Mormon beliefs that I have not heard from Mormons themselves.

 

[RebeccaJ]

A wonderful priest and friend of mine (now deceased) once told me that “knowledge makes a bloody entrance”. I, for one, greatly appreciate the knowledge of Mormonism you bring to this forum. I believe you are telling it straight and I have never seen anything you have written about Mormon beliefs that I have not heard from Mormons themselves.

Thanks.

 

[Stephen168]

We have come a long way since then. Church no longer rules the state.

Except for a piece of what is now Italy, the Church never ruled the state; Catholics did, the Church did not.

I’m very proud of Catholics for being so charitable on this thread. I really hope it remains charitable

And factual.

 

[flyonthewall]

So Mormons think that any other Christian church is an abomination?

No. Some might want you to think that is what we believe, but it is not. It has always been the creeds that were called an abomination…not the church. It is the creeds that have erroneous statements. We believe this was a statement of Jesus Christ to Joseph Smith.

I can agree with all statements of the Apostolic Creed, with the exception of the statement about the Catholic church.

We believe that all churches have a portion of truth in them, some more than others, but none others have the fullness of the gospel. When I say fullness, I mean that we believe that what we have is correct, not that we have EVERYTHING, as one of our articles of faith states that there are yet to be revealed many great and important things pertaining to the kingdom of God.

Now I hope you don’t get the idea that we focus on the abomination statement, because we do not. We focus on the belief that our church is true and contains the fullness of the gospel.

 

[RebeccaJ]

Kind of splitting hairs to call what a person believes, as taught by the Catholic Church, an abomination yet somehow claim the Church itself is just fine.

One is not separate from the other, and we are not separate either. So how is it the people are not abominable as well?

Let us not forget either, that Mormon leaders taught for the majority of Mormon existence that the Catholic Church was the whore of Babylon, and an abomination.

Mormons today may or may not believe this, depending on who you ask, and who is doing the asking.

 

[flyonthewall]

Kind of splitting hairs to call what a person believes, as taught by the Catholic Church, an abomination yet somehow claim the Church itself is just fine.

Kind of like saying Mormons are good people but believe in heretical things.

One is not separate from the other, and we are not separate either. So how is it the people are not abominable as well?

The people are doing the best they can with what they have. Their intent and sincerity is good, but founded upon faulty creeds.

Let us not forget either, that Mormon leaders taught for the majority of Mormon existence that the Catholic Church was the whore of Babylon, and an abomination.

Mormons today may or may not believe this, depending on who you ask, and who is doing the asking.

You make statements you know you cannot back up. The only leader that put that forth, was chastised for it, and it was recanted. The LDS church has never taught that. There may have been individuals who held that belief, but it was never an official stance of the church or its leaders.
I don’t know how many times this has been corrected on this board(several times by me alone), but it continues to come up again and again.

 

[RebeccaJ]

Kind of like saying Mormons are good people but believe in heretical things.

fly, I don’t believe what Mormons believe or don’t believe is what causes them to be good people, or bad people.

My experience is that a person is a good person, because that is what they want to be. It has nothing to do with what is believed, or not, as coming from atheism myself, I have many friends and close family who are atheists and “good people”.

I don’t reduce faith to these moralisms or emotionalisms.

The people are doing the best they can with what they have. Their intent and sincerity is good, but founded upon faulty creeds.

How very condescending.

You make statements you know you cannot back up. The only leader that put that forth, was chastised for it, and it was recanted.

fly, I was taught it.

The LDS church has never taught that. There may have been individuals who held that belief, but it was never an official stance of the church or its leaders.
I don’t know how many times this has been corrected on this board(several times by me alone), but it continues to come up again and again.

Because it was taught by more than McConkie. He didn’t pull it out of the air.

It isn’t something you can explain away, because it is factual.

 

[flyonthewall]

fly, I don’t believe what Mormons believe or don’t believe is what causes them to be good people, or bad people.

My experience is that a person is a good person, because that is what they want to be. It has nothing to do with what is believed, or not, as coming from atheism myself, I have many friends and close family who are atheists and “good people”.

I don’t reduce faith to these moralisms or emotionalisms.

I see you did not understand what I meant.
We see other churches as trying to do good, and they do good.

How very condescending.

You say “condescending” when spoken of about the Catholic church, but when Catholics say it about non-catholics, it is labled as “truth”.

fly, I was taught it.

As I stated, individuals held that belief, but was never taught by church.

Because it was taught by more than McConkie. He didn’t pull it out of the air.

It isn’t something you can explain away, because it is factual.

And even though you insist upon it does not make it true.

 

[Stephen168]

Kind of like saying Mormons are good people but believe in heretical things.

No, it would be like saying that what the Mormon Church teaches is an abomination but the church is not.

It has always been the creeds that were called an abomination…not the church.

 

[zaffiroborant]

flyonthewall;7818618:

No. It has always been the creeds that were called an abomination…not the church. I

It gets even more confusing because the quote goes on to say

No. Some might want you to think that is what we believe, but it is not. It has always been the creeds that were called an abomination…not the church. It is the creeds that have erroneous statements. We believe this was a statement of Jesus Christ to Joseph Smith.

I can agree with all statements of the Apostolic Creed, with the exception of the statement about the Catholic church.

By the way the Apostles Creed has “holy catholic church” not “holy Catholic church”

 

[flyonthewall]

No, it would be like saying that what the Mormon Church teaches is an abomination but the church is not.

Perhaps it is the term “abomination” that you object to? You have no problem in labeling the doctrines of others as heretical, if the term “heretical” were used instead, would you not take as much offense?

 

[Stephen168]

So Mormons think that any other Christian church is an abomination?

Yes, 1 Nephi 13&14, from the Book of Mormon, talks about the great abominable church the Apostles saw develop. This church is most abominable above all other churches because that took away the most precious parts of the bible. This abominable church goes out to all nations of the Gentiles. The Gentiles stumble because of this abominable church which is the mother of harlots. This whore of all the earth had dominion over all nations and tongues. The abominable church was founded by the devil and will lead the souls of man into the great pit. Seems clear it is the Catholic Church to me.

 

[flyonthewall]

Yes, 1 Nephi 13&14, from the Book of Mormon, talks about the great abominable church the Apostles saw develop. This church is most abominable above all other churches because that took away the most precious parts of the bible. This abominable church goes out to all nations of the Gentiles. The Gentiles stumble because of this abominable church which is the mother of harlots. This whore of all the earth had dominion over all nations and tongues. The abominable church was founded by the devil and will lead the souls of man into the great pit. Seems clear it is the Catholic Church to me.

Um…LDS do not understand it this way, I find it…interesting that you think the Catholic church matches the description you gave.

 

[Stephen168]

Perhaps it is the term “abomination” that you object to?

No, it is the dishonesty I object to.

You have no problem in labeling the doctrines of others as heretical,

True, and we will never try to hide the fact later.

if the term “heretical” were used instead, would you not take as much offense?

The Mormon Church can call the Catholic Church whatever it wishes, just don’t be dishonest about the fact it does so.