What is a ' substance ? '

  • Thread starter Thread starter Linusthe2nd
  • Start date Start date
Status
Not open for further replies.
Ok, but if we are consciousness than we are unconsciousness and subconsciousness and all interact. You recall information. The unconscious interaction can’t be recalled in the manner of the subconscious. So theres a difference in choosing to remember. But unconscious may be recalled by some special interaction be it God, hypnosis etc. So I have to think our unconscious can define our experience and mental state. 🙂
The O.P. is about ’ substance, ’ it is not about ’ consciousness. ’

Linus2nd.
 
The O.P. is about ’ substance, ’ it is not about ’ consciousness. ’

Linus2nd.
My apology, another thread and Bahman inspired me, I couldn’t help it. I agree with him right above also.

I was thinking about the definition also while reading through. Substance itself can be of various meanings including, a substance, which leads to pure substance, and also of substance. For example here…
A substance can be anything. It doesn’t have to consist of a single element or type of molecule. Pure hydrogen is a pure substance. So is pure honey, even though it consists of many different types of molecules. What makes both of these materials pure substances is that they are free from contamination. If you add some oxygen to the hydrogen, the resulting gas is neither pure hydrogen nor pure oxygen. If you add corn syrup to the honey, you no longer have pure honey. Pure alcohol could be ethanol, methanol or a mixture of different alcohols, but as soon as you add water (which is not an alcohol), you no longer have a pure substance. abouteducation
So I think there are many definitions which lead to yet others, such as a form of matter that has a constant, thus substance. So the next in the sequence is, is energy a substance? imho.
 
I will limit my definition to the scholastic definition as I understand it.

Substance is that which underlies the form or accidents of a thing.

Thus, looking at a wooden chair, the form is the shape of the chair; its color, size, etc.

The underlying substance of the chair is wood or metal or plastic…

Substances are finite and perishable, as in the case of burning wooden chairs to ashes, in which case both the form and the substance of the chair have ceased to exist.
 
On this thread I am merely trying to see how our participants and viewers understand the term ’ substance. ’ I may or may not comment on a particular view. Aristotle proceeded to gather the opinions of the men of his time and of the ancients before he attempted to give a more scientific opinion.

Linus2nd
OK thanks. I thought you were hinting at something else and maybe going to start in with Socratic questions. But if you are just soliciting opinions, I think it’s fairly obvious that I think of substance as a synonym for matter.
I will limit my definition to the scholastic definition as I understand it.

Substance is that which underlies the form or accidents of a thing.

Thus, looking at a wooden chair, the form is the shape of the chair; its color, size, etc.
I would say that the form linked with the purpose it serves is the essence of the chair.
The underlying substance of the chair is wood or metal or plastic…
Yes, although I’m not sure about that adjective underlying. It seems pretty straightforward that for most chairs, other than those with paint-jobs or upholstery, the wood metal or plastic is what the whole chair is composed of.
Substances are finite and perishable, as in the case of burning wooden chairs to ashes, in which case both the form and the substance of the chair have ceased to exist.
Yes, I think that is more or less right, although some materials, gold for instance, will not “disappear” or be transformed by burning, although aqua regia would effect a burning-like chemical disappearing act similar to the action of fire on wood.

You could beat the gold out into gold leaf too, but it would take a lot of pounding to make all traces of the golden chair disappear. Melting would suffice to make the chair disappear, but unless the molten gold were poured out into separate ingots or something, there would still be a puddle with the same mass as the previous golden chair.

I think that more ordinary language is better for discussing the disappearance of objects than these philosophical efforts to do the same.
 
Seems so, it, is the essence of the Gold itself, not the fact “it” may be a chair, ark or gold leaf.

So the essence may be energy which indeed can be pure and can be converted to matter and matter to energy. Each can convert to the other.
 
Seems so, it, is the essence of the Gold itself, not the fact “it” may be a chair, ark or gold leaf.

So the essence may be energy which indeed can be pure and can be converted to matter and matter to energy. Each can convert to the other.
Essence or mental state? Could you please elaborate the former case?
 
Ha, I think you can superimpose an ontological argument over the scientific.
Consciousness is the basic element of reality and it is primary. What is not primary, mental state, is the construct of consciousness itself. Hence science cannot tell any truth on subject matter more than what is experienced.
 
Consciousness is the basic element of reality and it is primary. What is not primary, mental state, is the construct of consciousness itself. Hence science cannot tell any truth on subject matter more than what is experienced.
Consciousness so we moved somewhat from existential, the body is not conscious, we are conscious of the body, the conscious, this is the creation of the energies [the “it”] of the essence keeping with the above wording such as love which is universal. Here’s a concept of yours
That is the very thing we are doing right now. Look at sky. Do you think whether we have a chance to scape this?
Similar analogy to what we been saying with essence energy thus matter and energy conversation. Like the Sun and its rays or water from its source.

You are the Gold being purified by the energies of the essence. You are here for no other purpose but to realize your own divinization. The trans substance can change as you can be pure energy.
 
Consciousness so we moved somewhat from existential, the body is not conscious, we are conscious of the body, the conscious, this is the creation of the energies [the “it”] of the essence keeping with the above wording such as love which is universal. Here’s a concept of yours

Similar analogy to what we been saying with essence energy thus matter and energy conversation. Like the Sun and its rays or water from its source.

You are the Gold being purified by the energies of the essence. You are here for no other purpose but to realize your own divinization. The trans substance can change as you can be pure energy.
Yes. You need to have a transparent mind, clear heart and right judgment to have access to divinity. This however starts with self-realization “I am who I am” or I am consciousness, very simple.
 
OK, so…
actuality precedes potentiality. For in order to change, a thing must be acted upon, or actualized; change and potentiality presuppose, therefore, a being which is in actu. This actuality, if mixed with potentiality, presupposes another actuality, and so on, until we reach the actus purus.
google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=1&cad=rja&uact=8&ved=0CB4QFjAA&url=http%3A%2F%2Fen.wikipedia.org%2Fwiki%2FActus_purus&ei=e7TcVMztA8ulgwSR8ICAAQ&usg=AFQjCNGhNwG1sx42UV0-rzhKHIwJ2XDTJA
 
OK, so… back to the topic at hand.

Since this is the philosophy forum, let’s go with a philosophical definition – in this case, Aquinas’.

Substance doesn’t speak to ‘matter and form’ (which is the path that Charlemagne seemed to go down), although we can talk about ‘substantial form’ and ‘accidental form’.

Substance, on the other hand, is that level of organization that is always only said of a thing – never a part of a thing. A substance is an essence/existence composite. It exists in itself, and not as a part of some other thing.

A substance is also not the matter that goes to make up a thing. Yes, I can change from dark-haired to grey-haired (or, as someone else mentioned on this thread, my atoms can change from day to day), but that doesn’t change my substance. (This, by the way, is how Aquinas uses the term ‘accidents’ – they can come and go, but they only adhere to a substance, not change what it is as substance.)

So, a substance can be a ‘horse’ or a ‘dog’, for example. A material substance, though, isn’t just it’s matter or its form (since these are always spoken of with respect to an individual thing).
 
Do we all agree what substance is? I’m thinking past to consciousness. 🙂 I’m not sure where this was going so I thought I would drop us back off at St Thomas. 😃
 
For Aquinas, our desire for God is the link between consciousness and matter. God is the living, intelligent medium in which bodies and souls are drawn to one another in a coherent and orderly universe. We could say desire is the current that creates invisible connections among beings within the being of God. Matter acquires form and flows towards God in all the diversity of creation as different life forms emerge.
google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=1&cad=rja&uact=8&ved=0CB4QFjAA&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.theguardian.com%2Fcommentisfree%2Fbelief%2F2012%2Ffeb%2F27%2Fthomas-aquinas-what-does-it-mean-to-be-human&ei=WdjcVKaSAdHtgwSq0YKwAg&usg=AFQjCNGowmQGQ_EEPDowCYJjAhukfP4Jbw

I’m all ears from here.
 
Gary,

I’m not sure how this addresses the question of what ‘substance’ is…?
I’m going with what your saying.
So, a substance can be a ‘horse’ or a ‘dog’, for example. A material substance, though, isn’t just it’s matter or its form (since these are always spoken of with respect to an individual thing).
What I’m further saying is you can reduce a horse or dog, to a photon. You still have substance and accidents. We still have matter and energy. And further as above consciousness and matter.
 
Of course I posted the O.P. with a definite purpose in mind and that was, hopefully, to clear away the confusion over what a ’ substance ’ was.in philosophical terms as opposed to what the general popular notion or the scientific notion might be. And of course the philosophical definition does not exclude other understanings. Rather it soars beyond them as the metaphysical definitions are always about being simply as existing, not as existing in a special way. Another purpose was to illustrate what a philosophical accident was.

Thomas Aquinas would say that a substance was an actually exiting being to which it belonged to exist in itself, as one uniform thing, and not to exist in another thing, not to exist as a part of another being.

The point to be made here is that we cannot actually see, measure, or detect a substance. We can only know it through the things that exisit in it or through the operations which are characteristic of it. Thus substance, nature, and essence are all synonyms for the same really existing thing. Now what we actually see, detect, or measure are the accidents of a substance, essence, or nature. That is we see its quantity, its qualities, its actions, its behavior, its location, its relationships.

We can detect its atomic, celleular, molecular structure, its functional parts, its size, weight, its color, smell, hardness, sounds, taste, etc., but.we cannot see its substance, essence or nature. Why not? Because all these things flow naturally from the substance, the nature, or the essence. It is the nature of a substance which gives rise to the observable. ( notice that I just used ’ substance ’ in two ways, and both properly )

For example. The nature of man is that he is a rational animal. When you see a man. do you see " animal, " do you see " rational? " No. What you see are all the properties, actions, characteristics which all men share ( participate in ) in comman - but in different ways according to each individual man.

I have a concept of the nature of a bird. When I see a bird what do I see? I see the characteristic structure and operations of the nature or essence common to the substances/things we call birds. I do not see the underlying nature, essence, or substance from which all these structures and operations flow.

Notice that in the last paragraph I used substance in two ways. In the first instance I used it as a synonym for " an existing thing " as seen. This would be the popular or scientific usage. Nothing wrong with that. But in the second instance, I used it in the metaphysical way to denote the nature which gives rise to the observable structure, functionality, and operations of that nature or essence., Aristotle and Aquinas called the first example First Substance and the second example Second Substance. Don’t ask me why, one would think it should be visa-versa.

Now you see why in the Miracle of Transubstantion, the Church says only the accidents of bread and wine remain. But they remain in an improper way because their proper substance no longer exists. And they do not exist in the Substance of Christ. We can sense and detect all the properties common to the substances of bread and wine but these are present only by Divine sufferance, for they are present without any substance at all!!! A second Miracle.

Linus2nd
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top