What is a ' substance ? '

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Google said this…
To put this in technical terms, an accident is a property which has no necessary connection to the essence of the thing being described
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Catholic theologians such as Thomas Aquinas have employed the Aristotelian concepts
That only required “google” not a thread in the philosophy dept.

What I’m saying is Gold or “pure substance” doesn’t fit that “philosophy” in the lab. So when we say substance and accident, then relate it to Gold.

I think a conversation exists here, somewhere.
 
Of course I posted the O.P. with a definite purpose in mind and that was, hopefully, to clear away the confusion over what a ’ substance ’ was.in philosophical terms as opposed to what the general popular notion or the scientific notion might be. And of course the philosophical definition does not exclude other understanings. Rather it soars beyond them as the metaphysical definitions are always about being simply as existing, not as existing in a special way. Another purpose was to illustrate what a philosophical accident was.

Thomas Aquinas would say that a substance was an actually exiting being to which it belonged to exist in itself, as one uniform thing, and not to exist in another thing, not to exist as a part of another being.

The point to be made here is that we cannot actually see, measure, or detect a substance. We can only know it through the things that exisit in it or through the operations which are characteristic of it. Thus substance, nature, and essence are all synonyms for the same really existing thing. Now what we actually see, detect, or measure are the accidents of a substance, essence, or nature. That is we see its quantity, its qualities, its actions, its behavior, its location, its relationships.

We can detect its atomic, celleular, molecular structure, its functional parts, its size, weight, its color, smell, hardness, sounds, taste, etc., but.we cannot see its substance, essence or nature. Why not? Because all these things flow naturally from the substance, the nature, or the essence. It is the nature of a substance which gives rise to the observable. ( notice that I just used ’ substance ’ in two ways, and both properly )

For example. The nature of man is that he is a rational animal. When you see a man. do you see " animal, " do you see " rational? " No. What you see are all the properties, actions, characteristics which all men share ( participate in ) in comman - but in different ways according to each individual man.

I have a concept of the nature of a bird. When I see a bird what do I see? I see the characteristic structure and operations of the nature or essence common to the substances/things we call birds. I do not see the underlying nature, essence, or substance from which all these structures and operations flow.

Notice that in the last paragraph I used substance in two ways. In the first instance I used it as a synonym for " an existing thing " as seen. This would be the popular or scientific usage. Nothing wrong with that. But in the second instance, I used it in the metaphysical way to denote the nature which gives rise to the observable structure, functionality, and operations of that nature or essence., Aristotle and Aquinas called the first example First Substance and the second example Second Substance. Don’t ask me why, one would think it should be visa-versa.

Now you see why in the Miracle of Transubstantion, the Church says only the accidents of bread and wine remain. But they remain in an improper way because their proper substance no longer exists. And they do not exist in the Substance of Christ. We can sense and detect all the properties common to the substances of bread and wine but these are present only by Divine sufferance, for they are present without any substance at all!!! A second Miracle.

Linus2nd
Just to clarify: for Aristotle and Aquinas, “first substance” refers to concrete individuals. For example, St. Michael the Archangel, St. Peter, the dog down the street, the pine tree out my window, and the stone in the garden are all “first substances.”

“Second substance” means the “species”: angel-kind, mankind, dog-kind, tree-kind, stone-kind, and so on—in other words, what sort of thing something is, taken in the abstract. “Second substance” in Aristotle and Aquinas is roughly equivalent to the “universals” of medieval Scholasticism and Plato’s “ideas.”

Aristotle called concrete individuals “first substance” because he was reacting against Plato, who considered the universals (the ideas) as more real than the concrete individuals.
 
Of course I posted the O.P. with a definite purpose in mind and that was, hopefully, to clear away the confusion over what a ’ substance ’ was.in philosophical terms as opposed to what the general popular notion or the scientific notion might be. And of course the philosophical definition does not exclude other understanings. Rather it soars beyond them as the metaphysical definitions are always about being simply as existing, not as existing in a special way. Another purpose was to illustrate what a philosophical accident was.

Thomas Aquinas would say that a substance was an actually exiting being to which it belonged to exist in itself, as one uniform thing, and not to exist in another thing, not to exist as a part of another being.

The point to be made here is that we cannot actually see, measure, or detect a substance. We can only know it through the things that exisit in it or through the operations which are characteristic of it. Thus substance, nature, and essence are all synonyms for the same really existing thing. Now what we actually see, detect, or measure are the accidents of a substance, essence, or nature. That is we see its quantity, its qualities, its actions, its behavior, its location, its relationships.

We can detect its atomic, celleular, molecular structure, its functional parts, its size, weight, its color, smell, hardness, sounds, taste, etc., but.we cannot see its substance, essence or nature. Why not? Because all these things flow naturally from the substance, the nature, or the essence. It is the nature of a substance which gives rise to the observable. ( notice that I just used ’ substance ’ in two ways, and both properly )

For example. The nature of man is that he is a rational animal. When you see a man. do you see " animal, " do you see " rational? " No. What you see are all the properties, actions, characteristics which all men share ( participate in ) in comman - but in different ways according to each individual man.

I have a concept of the nature of a bird. When I see a bird what do I see? I see the characteristic structure and operations of the nature or essence common to the substances/things we call birds. I do not see the underlying nature, essence, or substance from which all these structures and operations flow.

Notice that in the last paragraph I used substance in two ways. In the first instance I used it as a synonym for " an existing thing " as seen. This would be the popular or scientific usage. Nothing wrong with that. But in the second instance, I used it in the metaphysical way to denote the nature which gives rise to the observable structure, functionality, and operations of that nature or essence., Aristotle and Aquinas called the first example First Substance and the second example Second Substance. Don’t ask me why, one would think it should be visa-versa.

Now you see why in the Miracle of Transubstantion, the Church says only the accidents of bread and wine remain. But they remain in an improper way because their proper substance no longer exists. And they do not exist in the Substance of Christ. We can sense and detect all the properties common to the substances of bread and wine but these are present only by Divine sufferance, for they are present without any substance at all!!! A second Miracle.

Linus2nd
I think that we also need to distinguish between substance as an ontological principle (which in this case is the “potential” principle that is perfected or actuated by the accidents), and substance taken to mean the whole individual.

For Aristotle, substance and essence are exactly synonymous (it is even the same word: ousía), and it can take on either meaning.

For Aquinas, in the term “substance,” the notion of “whole individual” prevails; in “essence,” the notion of “ontological principle” prevails. However, in neither case is the other meaning excluded.

So when we say, “the substance cannot be seen,” we mean substance as “ontological principle that underlies the accidents.”

If, however, we take “substance” to mean “whole concrete individual,” then substance is very much visible. (I can see my neighbor, the dog next door, the tree next to me, and everything, without any trouble.)
 
I think that we also need to distinguish between substance as an ontological principle (which in this case is the “potential” principle that is perfected or actuated by the accidents), and substance taken to mean the whole individual.

For Aristotle, substance and essence are exactly synonymous (it is even the same word: ousía), and it can take on either meaning.

For Aquinas, in the term “substance,” the notion of “whole individual” prevails; in “essence,” the notion of “ontological principle” prevails. However, in neither case is the other meaning excluded.

So when we say, “the substance cannot be seen,” we mean substance as “ontological principle that underlies the accidents.”

If, however, we take “substance” to mean “whole concrete individual,” then substance is very much visible. (I can see my neighbor, the dog next door, the tree next to me, and everything, without any trouble.)
I think we need to talk of what “substance” is Jesus Christ really present in the Eucharist. How do we qualify “substance” in the sense of God?
 
fact that what appears to be bread and wine in every way (at the level of “accidents” or physical attributes - that is, what can be seen, touched, tasted, or measured) in fact is now the Body and Blood of Christ (at the level of “substance” or deepest reality).
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Body and Blood of Christ (at the level of “substance” or deepest reality)
Follow where I’m coming from? Same principles apply to the Universe. In other words we don’t need to strictly speak Jesus Christ real presence. But the same principles apply too.
 
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Linusthe2nd:
… we cannot actually see, measure, or detect a substance. We can only know it through the things that exist in it or through the operations which are characteristic of it.
Linus, how can it be demonstrated that substance exists in reality? Taking the example of the bird, for instance, how can it be demonstrated that the substance of a bird exists as a thing distinct from the physical matter and physical capabilities of a bird? Further, how can it be demonstrated that substance is something that exists in reality and is not just a way of thinking about a thing or grouping of things?
 
I think that we also need to distinguish between substance as an ontological principle (which in this case is the “potential” principle that is perfected or actuated by the accidents), and substance taken to mean the whole individual.

For Aristotle, substance and essence are exactly synonymous (it is even the same word: ousía), and it can take on either meaning.

For Aquinas, in the term “substance,” the notion of “whole individual” prevails; in “essence,” the notion of “ontological principle” prevails. However, in neither case is the other meaning excluded.

So when we say, “the substance cannot be seen,” we mean substance as “ontological principle that underlies the accidents.”

If, however, we take “substance” to mean “whole concrete individual,” then substance is very much visible. (I can see my neighbor, the dog next door, the tree next to me, and everything, without any trouble.)
Thank you for an expanded explanation Imelahn. But I think I am saying the same thing. Second substance would be the underlying matter- form composit, which would be an instantiation of the species, its nature minus its accompanying accidents, internal and external. And first substance would be the individual we see, accompanied by all its accidents, and the second substance, which we do not see. I am speaking here of normal substances, not the substances involved in Transubstantiation.

In Transubstantion the substance of the bread and wine have been changed into the Whole Christ, This would be the First substance, accompanied by the Second Substance. In my explanation First Substance would include what I have described as Second substance. Here First Substance would be the substantial presence the Church speaks of, the Whole Christ.

Whereas, the species remain without a substance. And by species I mean all the accidents of bread and wine, both their internal and their external accidents. By internal accidents I mean the matter as expressed by deminsion, weight, mass, shape,size, the detectable characterisics of their atomic, celleular, and molecular structure, if you will. And by their external accidents I mean their color, taste, feel,smell. All of which are present by a special miracle of God, by Divine intervention.

In regard to the internal accidents, this question came up when a poster said to me that matter is not an accident. And to this I had to agree, but was stumped as to how to explain myself, since Aristotle’s categories do not include matter as an accident. Though it certainly was included under substance.

Then I read something in Ott’s Fundamentasl of Catholic Dogma which turned on a light. In discussing the manner in which the Sacred Species existed, it was pointed out ( pg. 383 in my 1960 paper back ed. ) that " By the appearances is understood everything which is perceived by the senses , such as size, extent, weight, shape, colour, taste, smell. " Then it dawned on me that atoms, cells, molecules of which matter is composed also have size, extent, weight, shape, etc as accompanying accidents. So the substance of the matter ( if I may so speak ) has been changed, but the accidents of the matter do remain. So it would seem that my apparent dilemma is solved. Matter is not an accident, but it does have its own special accidents which remain after the change.

I know you will have some interesting comments and I look foreward to them. As always, in such matters I always intend to express the teaching of the Church and if the Church does not speak, I hope always to be faithful to the thought of Thomas - at least in spirit.

Pax
Linus2nd .
 
Linus, how can it be demonstrated that substance exists in reality? Taking the example of the bird, for instance, how can it be demonstrated that the substance of a bird exists as a thing distinct from the physical matter and physical capabilities of a bird? Further, how can it be demonstrated that substance is something that exists in reality and is not just a way of thinking about a thing or grouping of things?
I and others have tried to explain how, I don’t know what else to say. All I can say is that we detect it with our five senses and through an intellectucal judgment that what we sense is real, are real things. If we cannot trust our senses and our intellect which is made for truth, then we are up a creek without a paddle.

P.S. Something very strange has just happened. The word ’ intellect ’ was typed between ’ our ’ and ’ which ’ above. But when I saved the post it disappeared. I tried to reinsert it several times, but each time it disappeared. I appologize if it has disappeared again. This has happened several times to me recently and I have no explanation for it. Why does this happen?

Linus2nd
 
A bird is the substance it exists in its own right, the accidents for example would be the color of the feathers and so forth which ultimately break down to matter and energy which has a code or a signature. Everything is on the same grid so to speak, its all interconnected.
 
A bird is the substance it exists in its own right, the accidents for example would be the color of the feathers and so forth which ultimately break down to matter and energy which has a code or a signature. Everything is on the same grid so to speak, its all interconnected.
Of course everything is interconnected otherwise the illusion could collapse as a bubble.
 
A bird is the substance it exists in its own right, the accidents for example would be the color of the feathers and so forth which ultimately break down to matter and energy which has a code or a signature. Everything is on the same grid so to speak, its all interconnected.
Yes, I agree. But the accidents exist in the substance, they exist because the substance exists. They do not exist without the substance.

Linus2nd
 
Yes, I agree. But the accidents exist in the substance, they exist because the substance exists. They do not exist without the substance.

Linus2nd
Right, hold that thought for a moment, I’m still thinking backwards in the conversation. Check this out…

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God is the same as his Essence
essence is synonymous with nature and substance. Therefore this teaching holds that God’s nature (his Godhead) is exactly who he is: there is nothing added to the substance of God. Whereas all living things have a substance (the primary mode of being) and accidents (the secondary modes of being), God is only a substance.
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Thoughts?
 
You need to clarify what your question is. Just off hand I would just say that God is a substance because he exists. And that holds true whether we are considering God in his very Essence or the Second Person as Incarnate. Both are Substances even though the Incarnate Son has an assumed human nature. God in his Essence and the Incarnate Son are both substances because both exist.

Linus2nd
 
You need to clarify what your question is. Just off hand I would just say that God is a substance because he exists. And that holds true whether we are considering God in his very Essence or the Second Person as Incarnate. Both are Substances even though the Incarnate Son has an assumed human nature. God in his Essence and the Incarnate Son are both substances because both exist.

Linus2nd
Right, first I wanted to show for all of us the distinction of substance and accidents and with God.
 
Wrong. We are all consciousness. The very concept of God is related to a conscious state in which the persona is free of all illusion.
Consciousness is good, still the difference needs to be established as indicated above with creature-creator. Here we would be talking substance=essence=consciousness.
 
The difference is already made. Creator is the one who strive on itself whereas the creature strive on illusion.

Essence=Consciousness. Substance=Illusion.
How does illusion relate to consciousness in a physical being and the Spirit of God?
 
How does illusion relate to consciousness in a physical being and the Spirit of God?
We have two realms, inside/consciousness/spiritual and outside/illusion/physical. Physical can be experienced with spiritual so called awareness. Spiritual can the create physical upon the decision. This is something we do in daily bases, we create the situation by our own decisions. There is however a hierarchy here depending on the level of awareness. You are more aware when you reach to a level of understanding in which all the complexity in physical look simple for you.
 
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