What is Christ's Church?

[rciadan]

I’m gonna “pinch hit” for ALLFORHIM, if that’s alright. Her church and mine are about the same when it comes to beliefs so I’ll give this a shot.
We define “church” as a body of believers, not a building with a name on it. Christians are, in fact, followers of Christ.
We see it as we don’t need a Magisterium telling us what to do when we have all the instructions in the Bible. Our church community is VERY important in helping one another on the journey home to Heaven. They are there to rejoice with us and cry with us and help us up when we might get down. I’d be lost without my church family! Our pastor is great too because he relates the issues of the world today with scripture and shows us that Jesus is the same yesterday, today and forever! (Hebrews 13:8)

I do not mind a pinch hitter. It tells me that I’m a pretty good “pitcher”!
First, the catholic Church does not believe that “Church” is a building any more than you do.
Second. You misunderstand the purpose and role of the Magesterium and, the simple fact of the matter is that all the instructions are not in the Bible! If they were, all the Christians that claim to be “bible based” would be Catholic, because the Catholic Church is the most bible based Church on earth. In addition, all Christians would agree on things such as Abortion (there are “Christians who are for it!), birth control, mastubation, divorce, etc. All Christians would vote the same and there would be no need for Catholic Answers. No, the specific instruction manual is not the bible alone. The Magesterium in that authoritaive aspect of my Mother, the Church that allows me to know beyond doubt that, if I am screwing up and putting myself in danger, anyone of my brothers or sisters can tell me; and when I refuse to listen because of my stubberness or just plain thick-headdedness, they can say to me,“Oh yeah, well go see what MOM says!” Once I hear that, just like an errant child, my ears perk up and I start to pay attention and I go th Her and ask her who is right and I know I will hear the Truth even if I don’t want to because I know that she loves me and will not lie to me, even if she is not happy with me. And if I find I have really messed things up, I know I can come into Her arms and receive forgiveness. I also know that my Father in Heaven whom I cannot see clearly will agree with whatever She says goes because He said so! This is my safetly and Salvation!
Third: It seems to me; and I am open to the possibiltiy that I may be erroneous with the following theory, that the majority Protestant understanding of “church” is that it is a purely existential entity:sort of an invisible divine force that ties all Christians together in unity and makes them one.
The Catholic Church believes this as well, but goes on to state that this exisential 'being” (known as the Bride of Christ) is entirely visible to the world: so visible that it is a “city on a mountain that cannot be hid”. It is also physical in the sense that She can be known by the senses of touch, sight, sound, smell, and taste. She can be asked questions with the expectation of being give catagorically truthful, unbiased, definitive answers to the most difficult questions. Answers that will never contradict the whole of Gods written word. Some are answers for all time that will never change in any way, in any time, in any circumstance.These are “defined” as Doctrine, which is not a “bad” word as some have come to believe if understood according to the actual dictionary definition. Others are answers for the times in which we live and these may change if the times change and are not “written in stone”. They are; rather, meant to help Christians deal with difficult questions dealing with historical specifics.
In short, I guess I’m describing a Mother, who is there that I can go to for comfort, a hug, nurtured, guided, and (quite literally) fed. And because I can always see Her Ican always find Her, even if I lose one of the senses. If I cannot hear Her, I can still see Her. If I cannot see Her I can still Hear Her. IF I can do niether, then I can still smell, touch and taste Her, etc, etc, etc,.
I am not attempting to provoke arguement; rather, understanding. We cannot bring Christ to the world if we cannot even agree as to who He is, who He is married to and what He has said!
Sorry, I did not mean to preach or to be so long worded!

 

[ALLFORHIM]

I do not mind a pinch hitter. It tells me that I’m a pretty good “pitcher”!
First, the catholic Church does not believe that “Church” is a building any more than you do.
Second. You misunderstand the purpose and role of the Magesterium and, the simple fact of the matter is that all the instructions are not in the Bible! If they were, all the Christians that claim to be “bible based” would be Catholic, because the Catholic Church is the most bible based Church on earth. In addition, all Christians would agree on things such as Abortion (there are “Christians who are for it!), birth control, mastubation, divorce, etc. All Christians would vote the same and there would be no need for Catholic Answers. No, the specific instruction manual is not the bible alone.
Third: It seems to me; and I am open to the possibiltiy that I may be erroneous with the following theory, that the majority Protestant understanding of “church” is that it is a purely existential entity:sort of an invisible divine force that ties all Christians together in unity and makes them one.
The Catholic Church believes this as well, but goes on to state that this exisential 'being” (known as the Bride of Christ) is entirely visible to the world: so visible that it is a “city on a mountain that cannot be hid”. It is also physical in the sense that She can be known by the senses of touch, sight, sound, smell, and taste. She can be asked questions with the expectation of being give catagorically truthful, unbiased, definitive answers to the most difficult questions. Answers that will never contradict the whole of Gods written word. Some are answers for all time that will never change in any way, in any time, in any circumstance.These are “defined” as Doctrine, which is not a “bad” word as some have come to believe if understood according to the actual dictionary definition. Others are answers for the times in which we live and these may change if the times change and are not “written in stone”. They are; rather, meant to help Christians deal with difficult questions dealing with historical specifics.
In short, I guess I’m describing a Mother, who is there that I can go to for comfort, a hug, nurtured, guided, and (quite literally) fed. And because I can always see Her Ican always find Her, even if I lose one of the senses. If I cannot hear Her, I can still see Her. If I cannot see Her I can still Hear Her. IF I can do niether, then I can still smell, touch and taste Her, etc, etc, etc,.
I am not attempting to provoke arguement; rather, understanding. We cannot bring Christ to the world if we cannot even agree as to who He is, who He is married to and what He has said!

Hi,
I guess the only problem I have with what you said is that you(or catholics)believe this can only be found in the CC. I have found that outside the CC so I suppose that is why I dont see the CC as the Bride of Christ. I see all believers as the Bride of Christ–which is biblical. I am including the CC in this statement as I believe there are many believers that belong to the CC but the CC is not an exclusive entity.

I have been reading some history and it seems christians were united in their beliefs up until heresies started to leak into the church of believers and then abuses took place, schisms started to happen. It is sad and I wish it didnt happen but it did. There are people who were still christians even though they split from Rome. The CC had its problems and still does but so does every church. That is why IMHO being a true follower of Christ is for anyone who accepts the gospel message and follows a life worthy of Christ whether or not they are sitting in a catholic , episcopal,methodist,reformed,bible based,baptist, Lutheran or Pentecost church.(Sorry if I left people out–you get my point though) God is looking at our hearts not what church we go to.

 

[KathleenElsie]

If you want–I don’t really care. All that matters to me is I’m a Christian. The church building I walk into is just not part of any specific denom thats all.

Then who do you rely on to interpret Scripture? Is there a higher authority? I am curious, I know about the main-stream Protestant Christian denominations but am curious about the governing structure of Non-denoms.

 

[KathleenElsie]

I do not mind a pinch hitter. It tells me that I’m a pretty good “pitcher”!
First, the catholic Church does not believe that “Church” is a building any more than you do.
Second. You misunderstand the purpose and role of the Magesterium and, the simple fact of the matter is that all the instructions are not in the Bible! If they were, all the Christians that claim to be “bible based” would be Catholic, because the Catholic Church is the most bible based Church on earth. In addition, all Christians would agree on things such as Abortion (there are “Christians who are for it!), birth control, mastubation, divorce, etc. All Christians would vote the same and there would be no need for Catholic Answers. No, the specific instruction manual is not the bible alone. The Magesterium in that authoritaive aspect of my Mother, the Church that allows me to know beyond doubt that, if I am screwing up and putting myself in danger, anyone of my brothers or sisters can tell me; and when I refuse to listen because of my stubberness or just plain thick-headdedness, they can say to me,“Oh yeah, well go see what MOM says!” Once I hear that, just like an errant child, my ears perk up and I start to pay attention and I go th Her and ask her who is right and I know I will hear the Truth even if I don’t want to because I know that she loves me and will not lie to me, even if she is not happy with me. And if I find I have really messed things up, I know I can come into Her arms and receive forgiveness. I also know that my Father in Heaven whom I cannot see clearly will agree with whatever She says goes because He said so! This is my safetly and Salvation!
Third: It seems to me; and I am open to the possibiltiy that I may be erroneous with the following theory, that the majority Protestant understanding of “church” is that it is a purely existential entity:sort of an invisible divine force that ties all Christians together in unity and makes them one.
The Catholic Church believes this as well, but goes on to state that this exisential 'being” (known as the Bride of Christ) is entirely visible to the world: so visible that it is a “city on a mountain that cannot be hid”. It is also physical in the sense that She can be known by the senses of touch, sight, sound, smell, and taste. She can be asked questions with the expectation of being give catagorically truthful, unbiased, definitive answers to the most difficult questions. Answers that will never contradict the whole of Gods written word. Some are answers for all time that will never change in any way, in any time, in any circumstance.These are “defined” as Doctrine, which is not a “bad” word as some have come to believe if understood according to the actual dictionary definition. Others are answers for the times in which we live and these may change if the times change and are not “written in stone”. They are; rather, meant to help Christians deal with difficult questions dealing with historical specifics.
In short, I guess I’m describing a Mother, who is there that I can go to for comfort, a hug, nurtured, guided, and (quite literally) fed. And because I can always see Her Ican always find Her, even if I lose one of the senses. If I cannot hear Her, I can still see Her. If I cannot see Her I can still Hear Her. IF I can do niether, then I can still smell, touch and taste Her, etc, etc, etc,.
I am not attempting to provoke arguement; rather, understanding. We cannot bring Christ to the world if we cannot even agree as to who He is, who He is married to and what He has said!
Sorry, I did not mean to preach or to be so long worded!

good post yes to long winded LOL

 

[KathleenElsie]

Hi,
I guess the only problem I have with what you said is that you(or catholics)believe this can only be found in the CC. I have found that outside the CC so I suppose that is why I don’t see the CC as the Bride of Christ. I see all believers as the Bride of Christ–which is biblical. I am including the CC in this statement as I believe there are many believers that belong to the CC but the CC is not an exclusive entity.

I have been reading some history and it seems Christians were united in their beliefs up until heresies started to leak into the church of believers and then abuses took place, schisms started to happen. It is sad and I wish it didn’t happen but it did. There are people who were still Christians even though they split from Rome. The CC had its problems and still does but so does every church. That is why IMHO being a true follower of Christ is for anyone who accepts the gospel message and follows a life worthy of Christ whether or not they are sitting in a catholic , episcopal,methodist,reformed,bible based,baptist, Lutheran or Pentecost church.(Sorry if I left people out–you get my point though) God is looking at our hearts not what church we go to.

And if you read our CCC you will find that we believe that there will be many other Christians in heaven not just Catholic Christians. In general most that leave the RCC are poorly educated in the faith and can not stand on their own when challenged. Also most other Christians are poorly educated in the RCC and go on the information that they have been given by those that never were educated in the RCC.

 

[ALLFORHIM]

Then who do you rely on to interpret Scripture? Is there a higher authority? I am curious, I know about the main-stream Protestant Christian denominations but am curious about the governing structure of Non-denoms.

Hi,

We rely on the Holy Spirit guiding us to all truth as is promised in scriputres. Our governing body is as such:

Christ=the Head of our church
Senior Pastor
Elders
Deacons
congregation.
Our Ministers have been highly educated in the field of ministry and do know their scripture. They rely on the Holy Spirit to guide them so they properly teach us.

I do believe and am at peace with what they have taught me to date. Their beliefs are in line with biblical principles(so was my baptist church BTW:thumbsup: )I left me baptist church because they had no activities for me or my children.
Of course there are individual people who run certain ministries within the church.

To become a member of our church you have to give your written or verbal testimony or statement of Faith. What you are doing here is claiming Christ as your Savior. Some people give their testimony during service(I personally did not–too shy)
People are still welcomed to come and participate in any function of our church except voting. At communion our Pastor tells people if they are not born again they under no circumstance should take communion because it is for believers only.
If you want to know anything just ask:thumbsup:

 

[ALLFORHIM]

And if you read our CCC you will find that we believe that there will be many other Christians in heaven not just Catholic Christians. In general most that leave the RCC are poorly educated in the faith and can not stand on their own when challenged. Also most other Christians are poorly educated in the RCC and go on the information that they have been given by those that never were educated in the RCC.

Hi,
So are you agreeing with me then? :bounce: Does the CC agree with me?:bounce: Is what I said in the catechism? If it is then I dont have a proble with the CC.

 

[Blue_Serenity]

I do not mind a pinch hitter. It tells me that I’m a pretty good “pitcher”!
First, the catholic Church does not believe that “Church” is a building any more than you do.
Second. You misunderstand the purpose and role of the Magesterium and, the simple fact of the matter is that all the instructions are not in the Bible! If they were, all the Christians that claim to be “bible based” would be Catholic, because the Catholic Church is the most bible based Church on earth. In addition, all Christians would agree on things such as Abortion (there are "Christians who are for it!), birth control, mastubation, divorce, etc. All Christians would vote the same and there would be no need for Catholic Answers. No, the specific instruction manual is not the bible alone. The Magesterium in that authoritaive aspect of my Mother, the Church that allows me to know beyond doubt that, if I am screwing up and putting myself in danger, anyone of my brothers or sisters can tell me; and when I refuse to listen because of my stubberness or just plain thick-headdedness, they can say to me,“Oh yeah, well go see what MOM says!” Once I hear that, just like an errant child, my ears perk up and I start to pay attention and I go th Her and ask her who is right and I know I will hear the Truth even if I don’t want to because I know that she loves me and will not lie to me, even if she is not happy with me. And if I find I have really messed things up, I know I can come into Her arms and receive forgiveness. I also know that my Father in Heaven whom I cannot see clearly will agree with whatever She says goes because He said so! This is my safetly and Salvation!

But how do you know the Magisterium isn’t leading you astray? There are traditions with hardly a trace of proof to them, except far-stretched biblical interpretations. I agree with most of the things the CC teaches and believe that the CC has good intentions. It just seems to be clouded with things that are unnecessary for salvation (a big one is how Mary is viewed, but that’s a whole other topic).

rciadan:

Third: It seems to me; and I am open to the possibiltiy that I may be erroneous with the following theory, that the majority Protestant understanding of “church” is that it is a purely existential entity:sort of an invisible divine force that ties all Christians together in unity and makes them one.

Right on!

rciadan:

The Catholic Church believes this as well, but goes on to state that this exisential 'being" (known as the Bride of Christ) is entirely visible to the world: so visible that it is a “city on a mountain that cannot be hid”. It is also physical in the sense that She can be known by the senses of touch, sight, sound, smell, and taste. She can be asked questions with the expectation of being give catagorically truthful, unbiased, definitive answers to the most difficult questions. Answers that will never contradict the whole of Gods written word. Some are answers for all time that will never change in any way, in any time, in any circumstance.These are “defined” as Doctrine, which is not a “bad” word as some have come to believe if understood according to the actual dictionary definition. Others are answers for the times in which we live and these may change if the times change and are not “written in stone”. They are; rather, meant to help Christians deal with difficult questions dealing with historical specifics.

How do you know all of the doctrine are true? These are man-made and have no credibility past just trusting whoever came up with them. So then dogmas are just whatever work for “the times” and are constantly subject to change?

rciadan:

In short, I guess I’m describing a Mother, who is there that I can go to for comfort, a hug, nurtured, guided, and (quite literally) fed. And because I can always see Her Ican always find Her, even if I lose one of the senses. If I cannot hear Her, I can still see Her. If I cannot see Her I can still Hear Her. IF I can do niether, then I can still smell, touch and taste Her, etc, etc, etc,.
I am not attempting to provoke arguement; rather, understanding. We cannot bring Christ to the world if we cannot even agree as to who He is, who He is married to and what He has said!
Sorry, I did not mean to preach or to be so long worded!

I understand your analogy and you painted a clear picture for me to understand and I thank you because I have a short attention span. Don’t take offense at the questions I am asking. I really am trying to understand.

 

[E.E.N.S]

We see it as we don’t need a Magisterium telling us what to do when we have all the instructions in the Bible.

Where in the Bible does it tell us how we should respond to embrionic stem cell research? or what if our spouse went and sterilized themself, should they receive communion? or what if our employer gives financial aid to Planned Parenthood - should we continue to work for them? or better yet, what if two people disagree with the interpretation of Scripture(and cooresponding theological point) and take it to the Church (as the BIble says to do) and what if they disagree with their pastor?

These were just some examples I thought a person might have a hard time finding explicit instructions within Sacred Scripture.

 

[jmcrae]

Hi,

We rely on the Holy Spirit guiding us to all truth as is promised in scriputres. Our governing body is as such:

Christ=the Head of our church
Senior Pastor
Elders
Deacons
congregation.
Our Ministers have been highly educated in the field of ministry and do know their scripture. They rely on the Holy Spirit to guide them so they properly teach us.

So, if they can, then why can’t the Pope?

Since it is the Apostle Peter who received the promise from Christ, and passed it down to his successors.

But if those who have not received the promise can be guided by the Holy Spirit, then why can’t the man to whom this was explicitely promised? (Matthew 16:18)

 

[jmcrae]

How do you know all of the doctrine are true? These are man-made and have no credibility past just trusting whoever came up with them.

How do you know that what your pastor, deacons, and elders teach you is true? You say that your pastor and his staff are guided by the Holy Spirit; yet we have no record in Scripture of the Holy Spirit being given to Protestants.

If you can believe that these people are guided by the Holy Spirit, and thus you believe whatever they tell you, and trust them when they tell you that it is in line with the Scriptures, then how is it that we can’t trust the Pope and his Bishops, who have received this promise - Jesus told them, through Peter and the Apostles, who are their direct spiritual ancestors by the laying on of hands, “The gates of Hell cannot prevail” (Matthew 16:18) and “When the Holy Spirit has come, he will guide you into all truth” (John 16:13)?

So then dogmas are just whatever work for “the times” and are constantly subject to change?

NO, dogmas are unchangeable. He was referring to the disciplines of the Church when he said that “some things” are changeable, and suited to the times - disciplines are required for obedience, but they can change when necessary - the laws around fasting and abstinence from meat are examples of disciplines - at one time, the Church had something called “ember days” which were days of total fasting; today, there are only two days in the year where we fast totally.

 

[rciadan]

ALLFORHIM;1847580]Hi,
I guess the only problem I have with what you said is that you(or catholics)believe this can only be found in the CC.

This kind of “Communion” can only be found in the Catholic Church, yes.

I have found that outside the CC so I suppose that is why I dont see the CC as the Bride of Christ. I see all believers as the Bride of Christ–which is biblical. I am including the CC in this statement as I believe there are many believers that belong to the CC but the CC is not an exclusive entity.

Not because the Church wishes to be exclusive; in fact, She laments that it works out that way yet She must be absolutely faithful to the word of God. It is more like a rose can only grow on a rose bush. Flowers in general can grow anywhere, but roses only on the rose bush. The full beauty of the rose can only be achieved on the rose bush even though there are thorns to deal with. This is a biblical concept.

I have been reading some history and it seems christians were united in their beliefs up until heresies started to leak into the church of believers and then abuses took place, schisms started to happen. It is sad and I wish it didnt happen but it did. There are people who were still christians even though they split from Rome.

All Christians were Catholic until the heretics came along. Of course there have been heretics all along, even in the scriptures.The term, Catholic, as in “Catholic Church” has been in use since the first century of the Church as evidenced by St, Ignatious. Anyone who is baptised is a Christian. Once you have become a Christian you are always a Christian. The Church has never denied this.

The CC had its problems and still does but so does every church. That is why IMHO being a true follower of Christ is for anyone who accepts the gospel message and follows a life worthy of Christ whether or not they are sitting in a catholic , episcopal,methodist,reformed,bible based,baptist, Lutheran or Pentecost church.(Sorry if I left people out–you get my point though) God is looking at our hearts not what church we go to.

The Catholic Church teaches this and is persecuted by Protestants for doing so! The paragraph concerning Muslims is in the same genre of statements that you just made, ie: if a Muslim believes and lives the Gospel message and loves God with all his heart mind and soul and in the end has lived a life worthy of Christ (even though he never had any real opportunity to get to know Jesus as we know him) may have a chance at salvation in the end.
As for Christians it is a little different. If you have known the fullness of the faith and then reject it, your soul is in grave danger of eternal damnation.
If a Protestant never understands what the Catholic Church is, they may still achieve salvation even though they never had the blessing of being in full Communion with Jesus’s only one true Church. However, if a Protestant (or Catholic) knows full well and understands and yet rejects this Truth, his soul is in danger.
You can see that there are many very fine points in what I say. That is why the Church teaches that only God has the right to say who is going to hell, even though She does have authority to announce the arrival of some into heaven (those who are canonized as Saints).

 

[rciadan]

Hi,
So are you agreeing with me then? :bounce: Does the CC agree with me?:bounce: Is what I said in the catechism? If it is then I dont have a proble with the CC.

An analogy would be as follows:
A person is born into a family and later decides that, “Mom (who is a homemaker) and Dad (who is a judge) don’t know what they are talking about: after all they aren’t perfect and they’ve made mistake so who gives them the right to tell me what is right and wrong?” And so they leave home and never come back and from that time forward have nothing good to say about thier parents to anyone. Yet, Mom and Dad still love them and never denies that this person is thier child and always will be, even if they get themselve into trouble and Dad(because of the demand for justice that he has sworn to) ends up sentenceing this person to be executed for thier crimes. Mom still loved them and will mourn for them to the end of time. Atter all nothing can take away the fact that this is thei child.
Mother Church has always maintained that all who are baptised are part of Her family, even if they leave home for whatever reason. If her children who have left have children, she will gladly love them as well and desires to give them all that she has if only they will open thier arms to receive. If any of her children whether at home in the church, or abroad in the Protestant realm, become errant and die in thier sin, she will suffer and mourn the loss of her children.

 

[rciadan]

Blue Serenity;1847942]But how do you know the Magisterium isn’t leading you astray?

Because Jesus Christ himself promised that She would not. No Magesterial teaching has ever been contradictory to the Scriptures. Almost all have provided very specific guidance in areas not explicitly coverd in Scripture.
How do you know that it has, except for many sar-fetched biblical interpretations that are by far for the most part taken completely out of context?

There are traditions with hardly a trace of proof to them, except far-stretched biblical interpretations.

The proof is there. Some you refuse to look at and some you refuse to see it fo what it is…

I agree with most of the things the CC teaches and believe that the CC has good intentions. It just seems to be clouded with things that are unnecessary for salvation (a big one is how Mary is viewed, but that’s a whole other topic).

You need to clarify.Just how do you think Mary is “viewed”, by the Church? Is that really another topic? I think it is an important aspect of the purpose of this thread–“What is Christ’s Church?”

Right on!

How do you know all of the doctrine are true? These are man-made and have no credibility past just trusting whoever came up with them.

This is simply an erroneous statement. I know they are true because, A. The Church Christ gave to me says to Obey Her, B. I have studied them to a large extent and understand how they came to be and that they are not just ideas invented out of thin air: that they are “definitions” of concepts that have been believed be Christians since Christ made His moather His first desciple. Believe me I trust no man escept those whom the Holy Ghost has specifically commanded I do so. I was raised an athieist and did not become a Christian, especially a Catholic out of mere emotional response (not that emotion was absent from the process).

So then dogmas are just whatever work for “the times” and are constantly subject to change?

No. What I said (not in these same exact words) was: some concepts have been “defined” and as such the meaning cannot change. Other things have not been or have yet to be defined and are either open for discussion or may have been decided as best as can be for the moment; but, when more information is available may be redonsidered in light of better understanding.

I understand your analogy and you painted a clear picture for me to understand and I thank you because I have a short attention span. Don’t take offense at the questions I am asking. I really am trying to understand.

Peace. I am willing to dialogue, even debate. I am only not willing to argue just to see who “wins”.

 

[ALLFORHIM]

In reading KJV 2 Samuel 12:23 and in the Catholic Douay-Rheims 2 Kings 12:23

But now that he is dead, why should I fast? Shall I be able to bring him back any more? I shall go to him rather; but he shall not return to me.

I do not understand your reference to man aborted infants at all. For the child mentioned here was stricken by the Lord. This child was taken to God by God.

I do not believe that babies that are murdered in their mothers bellies are stricken by God. I do believe that they are taken to God in his grear Mercy as the innocent sacrifices that they are.

Right that is the thing. It is one piece of Scripture that is vague enough that no one really knows. That is why I say scripture is silent on this. There is not enough scriptural evidence tp prove one way or the other.

 

[ALLFORHIM]

So, if they can, then why can’t the Pope?

Since it is the Apostle Peter who received the promise from Christ, and passed it down to his successors.

But if those who have not received the promise can be guided by the Holy Spirit, then why can’t the man to whom this was explicitely promised? (Matthew 16:18)

If the Pope has the Holy Spirit in Him then absolutley:thumbsup: Same with all the bishops and priests and ministers. The preacherr, pope, priest, bishop that does not have the HS well, I feel bad for them because they are held to a higher standard from God then we are. They are teachers of the faith and should not be teaching if they dont believe and have the HS in them.

 

[ALLFORHIM]

This kind of “Communion” can only be found in the Catholic Church, yes.

This pretty much goes with what I have said just above:thumbsup:

 

[rciadan]

Right that is the thing. It is one piece of Scripture that is vague enough that no one really knows. That is why I say scripture is silent on this. There is not enough scriptural evidence tp prove one way or the other.

Which is why Jesus gave His Church the authority to make deifnitive, binding, descisions (Doctrine and Disciplne).It is not correct to say that just because scripture is vague, people who make diametrically opposed interpretations are both nither right nor wrong. Some one must decide which is correct. How do we know who this is to be? I’ll take God’s word for it as stated in scrpture that His Church built upon Peter is the only one.

 

[ALLFORHIM]

An analogy would be as follows:
A person is born into a family and later decides that, “Mom (who is a homemaker) and Dad (who is a judge) don’t know what they are talking about: after all they aren’t perfect and they’ve made mistake so who gives them the right to tell me what is right and wrong?” And so they leave home and never come back and from that time forward have nothing good to say about thier parents to anyone. Yet, Mom and Dad still love them and never denies that this person is thier child and always will be, even if they get themselve into trouble and Dad(because of the demand for justice that he has sworn to) ends up sentenceing this person to be executed for thier crimes. Mom still loved them and will mourn for them to the end of time. Atter all nothing can take away the fact that this is thei child.
Mother Church has always maintained that all who are baptised are part of Her family, even if they leave home for whatever reason. If her children who have left have children, she will gladly love them as well and desires to give them all that she has if only they will open thier arms to receive. If any of her children whether at home in the church, or abroad in the Protestant realm, become errant and die in thier sin, she will suffer and mourn the loss of her children.

That is a nice analogy. Yes I feel that God does that with everyone. Because of course we are His children. God loves us so much He is willing to let us go if we so desire. However, once we have accepted Christ as our Savior and have been sealed with the HS God does not let us go ever. There are scriptures about this riddled through the bible. I just dont have time to look for them.

God draws us to Him and we can continue to reject the mesagge over and over until one day God says ok and then He hardens their heart Of course we dont know who those people are so we keep trying to preach the gospel. I cant count how many times I was preached the Good News in my young life and it took me 30 years before I came home to God:thumbsup: Some people it takes a lifetime. God is patient–Thank you Lord for being patient with your childre.–AMEN

 

[ALLFORHIM]

Which is why Jesus gave His Church the authority to make deifnitive, binding, descisions (Doctrine and Disciplne).It is not correct to say that just because scripture is vague, people who make diametrically opposed interpretations are both nither right nor wrong. Some one must decide which is correct. How do we know who this is to be? I’ll take God’s word for it as stated in scrpture that His Church built upon Peter is the only one.

Hi,

That is fine and I will take Christ’s word that the Church was built on the rock–Jesus.