What is Christ's Church?

[Blue_Serenity]

I have yet to see any shred of evidence that the Church throughout history was any other church than the Catholic Church. Just was evidence does “the other side” have?? I made a comment about agreeing to disagree just a couple of posts above. It’s akin to saying that I believe George Washington was a president of the United States and you believed that he wasn’t, and you wanted to “agree to disagree” - which on something as verifiable as Washington being president or the Catholic Church being the historical Church is a silly resolution.

One could just as soon to agree to disagree that 2+2=3.

You can NOT prove the CC is the only right church. Jesus spoke nothing of it in the Bible. :nope:

 

[mrs_abbott]

Then, pray tell, what is Opus Dei all about?

Sorry but I don’t know what opus dei means.
E.E.N.S.:

Yes, but who’s definitions? This whole idea of the “invisible church” that protestants bring to the table is relatively new, and it was formed outof necessity to justify there own new and seperated beliefs. It is not scriptural and it is certainly not historical.

How do you know that for sure?
E.E.N.S.:

How do you know how much faith she has??

By her living example!
E.E.N.S.:

Ahh but Christianity is communal. We can’t just cut all that God has placed before us out of the picture and make it a “me and Jesus” faith. Again, this is not scriptural nor historical. I would agree, she does tend to show a little more charity than some of the posters here - including myself. But let’s not forget that if we compromise truth for the sake of “charity” we are actually doing charity a tremendous dis-service.We can only be tolerant insomuch as we do not at the same time compromise truth for error.

I’ll agree. Christianity IS communal but first and foremost, it has to be between the individual and God. Without a relationship with God, you have no communion with other Christians. :nope:
I’m not asking you to compromise truth for charity but I think we all need to think about how we can say things accurately without pouring our personal opinions and emotions into our responses.

 

[MrS]

You can NOT prove the CC is the only right church. Jesus spoke nothing of it in the Bible. :nope:

“…and upon this Rock I will build my church…”

Rock = Peter, the vicar of Christ, the chief steward, the prime minister, the holder of the Keys until the King comes again…

I = Jesus, not any of the humans who have started their own belief systems - most since the Reformation

Build = an ongoing process, not an immediate happening

My = gee, you think the Church is and belongs to Jesus ??

Church = singular, no matter what translation you use or abuse… there is only one. That being said: where is it??

Please don’t use the “body of believers” misquote. In that body there are so many devisive groups, that it cannot possibly be the intent “…that all are one…”

.

 

[MrS]

You can NOT prove the CC is the only right church. Jesus spoke nothing of it in the Bible. :nope:

Jesus did not leave us a Bible… he left us a Church, with leaders

who would themselves be guided by the Holy Spirit to set much of the Traditions to a written letter…

who would themselves, be guided by the Holy Spirit to sift through all the writings, and determine which were inspired,

who would themselves, be guided by the Holy Spirit, according to the promise of the Lord, to “Feed My sheep, tend My flock, feed My sheep.”

If you are not in the Catholic Church… well stained glass is just not the same from the outside…

.

 

[E.E.N.S]

You can NOT prove the CC is the only right church. Jesus spoke nothing of it in the Bible. :nope:

You can easily prove that the Catholic Church is the historical Church starting with Christ - that is what I was saying. (From there it shouldn’t be too hard to see that it is also the One True Church as well. )

 

[E.E.N.S]

Sorry but I don’t know what opus dei means. ***I didn’t say opus dei, I said Opus Dei. Opus Dei is a religious order for the layity to sanctify their work, and “opus Dei” would mean “work of God”.

How do you know that for sure? ***Because the Reformation is relatively new.

By her living example!

I’ll agree. Christianity IS communal but first and foremost, it has to be between the individual and God. Without a relationship with God, you have no communion with other Christians. :nope:
I’m not asking you to compromise truth for charity but I think we all need to think about how we can say things accurately without pouring our personal opinions and emotions into our responses. ***It’s not an either or, me and Jesus or communion of saints, however the emphasis tends to vastly get placed on the “me and Jesus” all too often with protestants. Also, I completely agree with you about being careful not to pour our personal opinions into our responses, so let’s go by the facts: The disciple of the Apostle John, Ignatius of Antioch, was Bishop of which Church in the 1st century? What Church was it that determined the canon of Scripture at the end of the 4th century? How old is the Catholic Church? How old is ALLFORHIM’s or Blue Serenity’s "churches"?

 

[mrs_abbott]

***It’s not an either or, me and Jesus or communion of saints, however the emphasis tends to vastly get placed on the “me and Jesus” all too often with protestants. Also, I completely agree with you about being careful not to pour our personal opinions into our responses, so let’s go by the facts: The disciple of the Apostle John, Ignatius of Antioch, was Bishop of which Church in the 1st century? What Church was it that determined the canon of Scripture at the end of the 4th century? How old is the Catholic Church? How old is ALLFORHIM’s or Blue Serenity’s “churches”?

Of course it’s about “me and Jesus”. Without that, where is the church??? You have to have believers to have a church.
I know the Catholic Church is the oldest church. Remember I’m Catholic here and know history.
I’m frustrated when Catholics constantly tell Protestants that they are wrong and then throw a bunch of history in their faces. Did you know that most Protestants believe that the CC was the true church until the Reformation and will agree with you 100% on what the ECFs and the Apostle John and Ignatius of Antioch?
ALLFORHIM and Blue Serenity’s churches are just as old as ours. Afterall, isn’t there only one Church?

 

[MrS]

Of course it’s about “me and Jesus”. Without that, where is the church??? You have to have believers to have a church.
I know the Catholic Church is the oldest church. Remember I’m Catholic here and know history.
I’m frustrated when Catholics constantly tell Protestants that they are wrong and then throw a bunch of history in their faces. Did you know that most Protestants believe that the CC was the true church until the Reformation and will agree with you 100% on what the ECFs and the Apostle John and Ignatius of Antioch?
ALLFORHIM and Blue Serenity’s churches are just as old as ours. Afterall, isn’t there only one Church?

What really separates us from all the rest is not the position of being a believer.

Satan attacks the Church, true, … but his target is really the priesthood.

No Priests,… No Eucharist…
No Eucharist… No Church… no matter how many believers you can count.

to think otherwise is to adapt the reasoning of

You and Me Lord…

when it should be More of You, and less of me Lord.

.

 

[E.E.N.S]

Of course it’s about “me and Jesus”. Without that, where is the church??? You have to have believers to have a church.
I know the Catholic Church is the oldest church. Remember I’m Catholic here and know history.
I’m frustrated when Catholics constantly tell Protestants that they are wrong and then throw a bunch of history in their faces. Did you know that most Protestants believe that the CC was the true church until the Reformation and will agree with you 100% on what the ECFs and the Apostle John and Ignatius of Antioch?
ALLFORHIM and Blue Serenity’s churches are just as old as ours. Afterall, isn’t there only one Church?

I never said it wasn’t “me and Jesus” - I said that the “me and Jesus” only type of attitude is false!

You are frustrated when Catholics tell protestants that they are wrong (on something they ARE wrong about) and throw facts in their faces…hmm, I don’t really know what to say about that.

I would say that you are wrong, most protestants will not agree with us 100% about history and the Church prior to the Reformation (I used to be protestant by the way)…in fact, in this very thread they are disagreeing with me, so I am not sure why you are giving this argument.

ALLFORHIM and Blue Serenity’s “churches” are not as old as ours, and saying so only serves to spread confusion. (You are right that there is only One True Church, but AFH and BS do NOT think that it is the Catholic Church - which it indeed is.)

I think you need to focus more on what’s being said as to how it’s being said…as it seems like you are only defending them because they are being “attacked” (which the only thing being attacked here is the Truth, and that is what I am trying to defend.)

 

[mrs_abbott]

What really separates us from all the rest is not the position of being a believer.

Satan attacks the Church, true, … but his target is really the priesthood.

No Priests,… No Eucharist…
No Eucharist… No Church… no matter how many believers you can count.

No CC but what about the rest of Christianity?

MrS:

to think otherwise is to adapt the reasoning of

You and Me Lord…

when it should be More of You, and less of me Lord.

.

It’s always about Jesus. He is first and foremost in our lives. Without God, we are nothing.

 

[ALLFORHIM]

Hello,
I felt I needed to rejoin the thread because of some statements made about me here. I am responding with trepedation because I said I was done and I dont like to break my word but I felt the need to respond on my behalf.

It is unfortunate that some of you responded poorly to me bowing out of this debate. It is even more unfortunate and sad that derogatory comments and judgements about my character had to be made . These are the reasons why I back out of threads. From observing the threads over almost a year now I have noticed 3 things that are a poor testimony to Christ.

1.) Personal attacks when the other party does not agree with you

2.) Personal attacks made when that party has no rebuttal and therefore reduces themselves to childish comments.

3.) The righteous indignation, pride and arrogance of posts here.

Im sure you all see this and feel the same way(well I hope so anyway)

I confess I am not immune to these thoughts as I am a sinner but by a sheer ACT OF WILLFULL OBEDIENCE TO GOD I never personally attack someone. I call it self-control. Trust me I want to type out some nasty zingers but I will not allow myself to EVER go down that path. To be quit honest it is sinful and I am trying to turn away from sinful behavior.

Now, with that said, I have noticed there were nice comments made about me as well and I appreciate the fact that you notice I am trying to always be charitable.

Ok my lecture is over. I hope you take these comments as gentle reminders of how we should be treating each other always. With love, kindness and respect.

Love

AFH

 

[E.E.N.S]

It is unfortunate that some of you responded poorly to me bowing out of this debate. It is even more unfortunate and sad that derogatory comments and judgements about my character

I went back and re-read all the posts that were made after you “bowed out” of this thread and I didn’t find any personal personal attacks or judgements made against your character.

 

[mrs_abbott]

I never said it wasn’t “me and Jesus” - I said that the “me and Jesus” only type of attitude is false!

But they put Christ first above themselves. Why do you think they believe so much in sola fide?
E.E.N.S.:

You are frustrated when Catholics tell protestants that they are wrong (on something they ARE wrong about) and throw facts in their faces…hmm, I don’t really know what to say about that.

I’ve talked with quite a few Protestants privately to better understand their points of view and they’re not as wrong as you may think. I’ll admit, I was skeptical at first, but they’re not far off from Catholics, at least the ones I’ve talked to.
E.E.N.S.:

I would say that you are wrong, most protestants will not agree with us 100% about history and the Church prior to the Reformation (I used to be protestant by the way)…in fact, in this very thread they are disagreeing with me, so I am not sure why you are giving this argument.

Have you talked with any of them? Do you know that for a fact? I just think people tend to just lump people in a category without seeing what they personally believe and are quick to attack without knowing the whole story.
E.E.N.S.:

ALLFORHIM and Blue Serenity’s “churches” are not as old as ours, and saying so only serves to spread confusion. (You are right that there is only One True Church, but AFH and BS do NOT think that it is the Catholic Church - which it indeed is.)

Ask them and see what they have to say.
E.E.N.S.:

I think you need to focus more on what’s being said as to how it’s being said…as it seems like you are only defending them because they are being “attacked” (which the only thing being attacked here is the Truth, and that is what I am trying to defend.)

I understand your position and you’re standing up for what’s right, that being Christ, correct?
I do look at what’s being said. It’s the same ole thing, just different wording.

 

[E.E.N.S]

mrs_abbott:

But they put Christ first above themselves. Why do you think they believe so much in sola fide?.

This is besides the point of the argument. We were talking about the Church and verifiable history.

mrs_abbott:

I’ve talked with quite a few Protestants privately to better understand their points of view and they’re not as wrong as you may think. I’ll admit, I was skeptical at first, but they’re not far off from Catholics, at least the ones I’ve talked to…

I used to be protestant. 99% of my family and friends are protestant. And most of the one’s I have talked with on these (and other) forums have been the same. I have something to work with here.

mrs_abbott:

Have you talked with any of them? Do you know that for a fact? I just think people tend to just lump people in a category without seeing what they personally believe and are quick to attack without knowing the whole story. .

Yes I have talked with them, (isn’t that what we are trying to do here?) Also, I am not attacking anybody - I am correcting a misunderstanding. There is a difference.
(And yes, I realize that I could improve in the department of tact, but that doesn’t change the fact of the matter. )
"mrs_abbott:

Ask them and see what they have to say. .

I have, and I am waiting.

mrs_abbott:

I understand your position and you’re standing up for what’s right, that being Christ, correct?
I do look at what’s being said. It’s the same ole thing, just different wording.

If you are truly reading what is being said I find these last couple of posts unnecessary.

I will edit this post in a few minutes - check back…

Okay, here is the edit:
This is why I questioned whether or not you were reading what was being said:

I said the Catholic Church was the historical Church through whom we obtained the Canon of Scripture (more or less), and these were the responses:

You can NOT prove the CC is the only right church. Jesus spoke nothing of it in the Bible. :nope:

Hi,

Yes I agree with you we just have different definitions of who the church is that is why we will have to agree to disagree. Any of our debating is going to stem from different definitions. Therefore probably making it pointless because neither one of us will change our minds. So we are just going in circles here.

So on that note I should humbly bow out.

Hi,

I agree, it just wasnt the RCC it was the universal church of believer’s:thumbsup:

Hopefully it all makes more sense to you now.

 

[jmcrae]

No CC but what about the rest of Christianity?

Without the Catholic Church, there can’t even be a “rest of Christianity.” Without the anchor of the Pope and the 1.2 billion Catholics, the few million Protestants would soon be swallowed up into Judaism, paganism, and secularism - it’s the Catholic Church that causes Christianity to be a “major world religion.”

 

[ALLFORHIM]

I went back and re-read all the posts that were made after you “bowed out” of this thread and I didn’t find any personal personal attacks or judgements made against your character.

Hi,
I went back and was going to give you the posts but then I thought that wouldnt be nice either. Some were made before I left. I was not singling you out BTW

You know we just have to be careful how we write things because you never know how someone on the other end may take it. I type responses and then I read them and sometimes say to myself that could be taken wrong and delete it. I am not an overly sensitive person but I guess I was the last couple of days.

Peace

Nancy

 

[E.E.N.S]

Hi,
I went back and was going to give you the posts but then I thought that wouldnt be nice either. Some were made before I left. I was not singling you out BTW

You know we just have to be careful how we write things because you never know how someone on the other end may take it. I type responses and then I read them and sometimes say to myself that could be taken wrong and delete it. I am not an overly sensitive person but I guess I was the last couple of days.

Peace

Nancy

Perhaps I should edit my signature to say, “Please forgive my lack of tact, but rest assured that I am not attacking you as a person - only your misconceptions.”

Or something along those lines anyway.

 

[ALLFORHIM]

Perhaps I should edit my signature to say, “Please forgive my lack of tact, but rest assured that I am not attacking you as a person - only your misconceptions.”

Or something along those lines anyway.

 

[MrS]

Without the Catholic Church, there can’t even be a “rest of Christianity.” Without the anchor of the Pope and the 1.2 billion Catholics, the few million Protestants would soon be swallowed up into Judaism, paganism, and secularism - it’s the Catholic Church that causes Christianity to be a “major world religion.”

While I was away, I had little doubt that the question would be answered… thanks.

Without the Catholic Church the Baptists’ imagined trail of blood would dry up…

the Reformers would have had nothing to reform

Heaven would still be closed

The thousands of breakaways would be heathens, pagans, Jews, Hindus, whatever.

The JWs could celebrate birthdays,

The Mormons would prefer one wife

I would be staying home tonight from a Bible Study, cuz Luke would have remained a gentile.

Circumcision would still be a works-of-the-law

we would all adhere to Ol sola meo… I’m all alone

And no Mormons would come a’knocking:thumbsup:

come to think of it… that is part of the confusion… if we had always listened to the Lord’s desire that all might be one… Catholic would still be the only legitimate claimant to the One, True Church

and Catholic Answers would not be such a wonderful tool that it is.

.

 

[Janet_S]

You are discussing Christ’s Church, not your favorite colors, favorite songs, or favorite recipes.

“What is Christ’s Church” is a real question with a real answer. Either the Catholic idea is right, and the Protestants are wrong; or the Protestant idea is right, and the Catholics are wrong. Both ideas cannot be right. Either Christ intended for His Church to be a real, visible institution which can trace its roots back to the Apostles through Apostolic succession or to be an invisible entity of true believers.

Don’t worry about being nice. Be charitable yes, but meaningful discussions have no need for “niceness.” Keep seeking the Truth.