What is Christ's Church?

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Yes, exactly! Too many people claim to have the HS when in reality they are just leading themselves further from God by believing “whatever they want to” believe. 👍
now you almost have it… That is another reason why the Church is the pillar and foundation of the Truth
 
1Peter… “… and it is baptism that now saves you…”
When the jailer, or the centurian wanted to become Christians, they (and their whole households… slaves, servants, spouse, children… no rejection of infants) were baptised into Christ,… both His life and His death.
Again you used the term outward grcaes of the Lord. Actually baptism and communion are ordinances because they were a direct command from God to do them.👍 So we do:thumbsup:
 
There is a road through a major city near me… and on a short strech of road, there are 9 “churches”, and of those nine, 4 have signs proclaiming they are baptist… and of those 4, two actually share the same parking lot.

Their theologies are quite different (one is reformed), yet they both claim what Blue might be suggesting… that they are (like you said) “separated from the phonies”

That is certainly not the working of the Holy Spirit leading a church into all truth.

.
Hi,
Have you gone to each of those churches and asked for their statement of faith and compared them to each other. If so what were the differences?😃
 
Hi,
Have you gone to each of those churches and asked for their statement of faith and compared them to each other. If so what were the differences?😃
If there are no important differences, why pay 9 different pastors (at least) and 9 different sets of office staff and cleaning staff? Not to mention electricity, water, sewage, mortgage, etc.

Why not simply gather them all into one building, under one pastor, and have five or six services each Sunday so that all of them can come, as we do in the Catholic Church? Thus freeing up a ton of money that is currently being poured into infrastructure for evangelizing the unsaved, educating the ignorant, and feeding the poor?
 
Again you used the term outward grcaes of the Lord. Actually baptism and communion are ordinances because they were a direct command from God to do them.👍 So we do:thumbsup:
newadvent.org/cathen/13295a.htm

might give you some interest , or maybe not. But I profess that the sacraments, received from the Lord, predate any other faith community by at least 1500 years… it is they who deny 7 of them… and call the other 2 - Baptism and Marriage, simply ordinance.

Your communion is whatever you wish it to be. For Catholics, the Eucharist is what the Lord gave us, not commanded us.

When He said the Apostles alone “… when soever you shall do this… do this in my Memory…”

for whatever reason, the word “do” is translated here as do… yet in almost every other use of the same exact word in Scripture, it is translated as “offer” in the sense of sacrifice.

the exception is when it is used in the book of Wisdom… but you can’t use it … cuz by choice, you don’t have that book in your OT

.
 
Do you mind expanding on this statement? I don’t mean to split hairs but that statement could be understood several ways.

"1Cr 12:3 Wherefore I give you to understand, that no man speaking by the Spirit of God calleth Jesus accursed: and [that] no man can say that Jesus is the Lord, but by the Holy Ghost. "

Is this the unity you’re talking about?

So, according to catholic dogma, what are the essential doctrines of salvation?

I see no need for this thing you call the catholic church. It’s certainly usefull as far as its keeping records back to the second century ano domini, but as far as salvation is concerned, I don’t understand the place of an organization, nor the necessity of loyalty to said organization. What is gained by being baptised by a catholic preist that is not gained by baptism by some other stranger? What is gained by going to mass that is not gained by a home fellowship? What is gained by hearing the homily of a preist that is not gained by the washing of the same word at home?

The original church was held in homes, yet now it has been mutated into a gathering to over elaborate chapels, with superfluous decorations, etc… I’m speaking generally of course. The point I mean to communicate, is that this hierarchical view of the church seems superfluous, and seems to limit in one’s mind, the power of the spirit.

In the sense that the church is universally inclusive, I agree. If by that you mean that organization of man, I don’t see any reason to believe such a thing.

I don’t know much about that but I would certainly contest the idea that more than a single church was founded by christ.

Thank you for your answer.

Skeptictank
 
If there are no important differences, why pay 9 different pastors (at least) and 9 different sets of office staff and cleaning staff? Not to mention electricity, water, sewage, mortgage, etc.

Why not simply gather them all into one building, under one pastor, and have five or six services each Sunday so that all of them can come, as we do in the Catholic Church? Thus freeing up a ton of money that is currently being poured into infrastructure for evangelizing the unsaved, educating the ignorant, and feeding the poor?
I dont know ask them:p 😃
 
Before we witness another amusing display of Protestant verbal gymnastics justifying (pun intended) Matthew 16, or scoffing at Luke 1:32 or outright dismissing Rev 1:18, 3:7, 9:1 or 20:1 (take your pick)…

The simple answer is, the Catholic Church. While not without its imperfect human leaders and their (sometimes considerable) sin, it is Christ’s only Church. It is the only Church that can trace its history directly to Him without igoring a millenia or two of human history. It is the only Church that can point to specific scripture that can be read literally OR figuratively and still call itself His True Church. Unlike the constantly shifting and often transparent ballet of moral relativism we find in Protestantism (e.g., contraception is a SIN! No, wait, it’s OK) the Catholic Church has never contradicted itself on matters of faith or morals.

While the Bible admittedly doesn’t say it verbatim, I think all would be hard pressed to deny that Jesus did not intend to leave behind a mess. He was, after all, a teacher…implying that there was something to be TAUGHT (not absorbed via osmosis by a mostly illiterate populous of Gospels and Epistles that had yet to even be written). Who did he entrust to teach? Better put, to whom did he give the keys to the kingdom of Heaven?

NOW go read Matthew 16. It may be true that any who believe are a part of the body of christ. But, I seem to recall a fairly grisly discussion somewhere in the NT that…if we are going to be literalists…gives fairly plain instruction about what to do with a part of your body that sins or causes you to sin…

Jesus did NOT leave behind a mess. He gave us the Gift of THE Church. The Pillar of Truth. The one Church all seek to judge…and whether they choose to admit it or not, that all seek to join. The Catholic Church. Not the Church of Pastor Bill, or Pastor Swaggart. No, the Church with billions of members from every age, the Church that gave us scripture and the saints, the Church that cultivated the Rennaisance, survived the Reformation and continues to be the global check on moral relativism brought about by Protestant individualism.

Come Home. The door-- while demanding-- is open, as always.

For Him.

G.
 
What you are missing in your fellowship meetings is the Eucharist. “If you do not eat this bread and drink this cup you have no life in you”. This is not and cannot be interpreted as symbolic. The Catholic Mass is the celebration of the Eucharist.The actual body and blood of Christ at the altar. For some who were never exposed to the Catholic Church I can understand to a point the questions that arise. These things happened in the beginning and were rejected by other faiths. I believe that Protestants and other faiths are good, Jesus loving people. My in-laws are two of the best. I’m sure you are as well.
God Bless
 
Before we witness another amusing display of Protestant verbal gymnastics justifying (pun intended) Matthew 16, or scoffing at Luke 1:32 or outright dismissing Rev 1:18, 3:7, 9:1 or 20:1 (take your pick)…

The simple answer is, the Catholic Church. While not without its imperfect human leaders and their (sometimes considerable) sin, it is Christ’s only Church. It is the only Church that can trace its history directly to Him without igoring a millenia or two of human history. It is the only Church that can point to specific scripture that can be read literally OR figuratively and still call itself His True Church. Unlike the constantly shifting and often transparent ballet of moral relativism we find in Protestantism (e.g., contraception is a SIN! No, wait, it’s OK) the Catholic Church has never contradicted itself on matters of faith or morals.

While the Bible admittedly doesn’t say it verbatim, I think all would be hard pressed to deny that Jesus did not intend to leave behind a mess. He was, after all, a teacher…implying that there was something to be TAUGHT (not absorbed via osmosis by a mostly illiterate populous of Gospels and Epistles that had yet to even be written). Who did he entrust to teach? Better put, to whom did he give the keys to the kingdom of Heaven?

NOW go read Matthew 16. It may be true that any who believe are a part of the body of christ. But, I seem to recall a fairly grisly discussion somewhere in the NT that…if we are going to be literalists…gives fairly plain instruction about what to do with a part of your body that sins or causes you to sin…

Jesus did NOT leave behind a mess. He gave us the Gift of THE Church. The Pillar of Truth. The one Church all seek to judge…and whether they choose to admit it or not, that all seek to join. The Catholic Church. Not the Church of Pastor Bill, or Pastor Swaggart. No, the Church with billions of members from every age, the Church that gave us scripture and the saints, the Church that cultivated the Rennaisance, survived the Reformation and continues to be the global check on moral relativism brought about by Protestant individualism.

Come Home. The door-- while demanding-- is open, as always.

For Him.

G.
 
Hi,
Have you gone to each of those churches and asked for their statement of faith and compared them to each other. If so what were the differences?😃
Actually, a friend, a young man whom I sponsored at Confirmation while he was in juvenile prison, lives in that area. It bothered him enough that he went to 3 or 4 of them to see just why they were not under one roof (his words)

They generally had 5 similar beliefs that they expresses to him. One, on learning he was Catholic, asked him to leave and come back when he would accept Jesus. :eek:

The reformed pastor (on a second visit with some specific questions from my friend) professed the rapture mis-theory, where as the others did not.

None professed the truth of John 6, yet claimed the Holy Spirit was alive in their church.

I think I remember that only one “allowed” submersion.

Anyway… they were not “under one roof”… and while they were friendly with each other, they gave my friend indications that they each needed to correct the other…

I will be seeing this friend again on Friday… I will ask him what he remembers of his outing.
 
I dont know ask them:p 😃
I suspect the reason is that they consider their differences important enough to remain divided on.

The reason they permit their members to receive Holy Communion at each other’s churches is not that they think their differences are not very important, but because they think that Holy Communion is not very important.
 
Actually, a friend, a young man whom I sponsored at Confirmation while he was in juvenile prison, lives in that area. It bothered him enough that he went to 3 or 4 of them to see just why they were not under one roof (his words)

They generally had 5 similar beliefs that they expresses to him. One, on learning he was Catholic, asked him to leave and come back when he would accept Jesus. :eek:

The reformed pastor (on a second visit with some specific questions from my friend) professed the rapture mis-theory, where as the others did not.

None professed the truth of John 6, yet claimed the Holy Spirit was alive in their church.

I think I remember that only one “allowed” submersion.

Anyway… they were not “under one roof”… and while they were friendly with each other, they gave my friend indications that they each needed to correct the other…

I will be seeing this friend again on Friday… I will ask him what he remembers of his outing.
Thanks i would like to know more:thumbsup:
 
I suspect the reason is that they consider their differences important enough to remain divided on.

The reason they permit their members to receive Holy Communion at each other’s churches is not that they think their differences are not very important, but because they think that Holy Communion is not very important.
I highly doubt it is because they think communion is non-important. It is probably because they agree on what it means.👍
 
I highly doubt it is because they think communion is non-important. It is probably because they agree on what it means.👍
But if they are letting a pre-Trib believer and a post-Trib believer receive Holy Communion together while considering each other to be in error, then what does that tell you about the importance they put on Holy Communion? I mean, shouldn’t they at least restrict it to people who believe the truth? (As they understand it.)
 
This is a quote from Allforhim’s Biblicist: “Rome’s boastful claim not only has great Scriptural problems but historical as well. Since there is no historical proof that Peter was even in Rome, much less functioned there as its “Bishop” for 25 years before his death. Tradition puts his death there, but that too is based only on tradition, having no historical documents that actually contain eyewitness testimony. And we do know that the church at Rome began with a board of elders governing it, not a single, authoritative Bishop (Pope/Patriarch). A type of Church government which was a much later development in both the East and the West.”

He is wrong about this. Actually all ancient writers are in agreement and no ancient writer claimed Peter ended his life anywhere other than in Rome.

In his Letter to the Romans (A.D. 110), Ignatius of Antioch remarked that he could not command the Roman Christians the way Peter and Paul once did, such a comment making sense only if Peter had been a leader, if not the leader, of the church in Rome.

Irenaeus, in Against Heresies (A.D. 190), said that Matthew wrote his Gospel “while Peter and Paul were evangelizing in Rome and laying the foundation of the Church.” A few lines later he notes that Linus was named as Peter’s successor, that is, the second pope, and that next in line were Anacletus (also known as Cletus), and then Clement of Rome.

Clement of Alexandria wrote at the turn of the third century. A fragment of his work Sketches is preserved in Eusebius of Caesarea’s Ecclesiastical History, the first history of the Church. Clement wrote, “When Peter preached the word publicly at Rome, and declared the gospel by the Spirit, many who were present requested that Mark, who had been for a long time his follower and who remembered his sayings, should write down what had been proclaimed.”

Biblical testimony: In the greeting at the end of the first epistle: “The Church here in Babylon, united with you by God’s election, sends you her greeting, and so does my son, Mark” (1 Pet. 5:13). Babylon is a code-word for Rome. Eusebius Pamphilius, in The Chronicle, composed about A.D. 303, noted that “It is said that Peter’s first epistle, in which he makes mention of Mark, was composed at Rome itself; and that he himself indicates this, referring to the city figuratively as Babylon.” There is good reason for saying that ‘Babylon’ means ‘Rome,’ and the good reason is persecution. Peter did not want to advertise his presence in the capital.

Here are two websites regarding archeological evidence. One is about the book, “The Bones of St Peter,” by John Evangelist Walsh. The other is THE TOMB OF ST. PETER
by Margherita Guarducci (an Italian archeologist).

amazon.com/Bones-St-Peter-Account-Apostles/dp/0385150393/sr=8-1/qid=1170291053/ref=sr_1_1/102-4026844-9035309?ie=UTF8&s=books

stpetersbasilica.org/Necropolis/MG/TheTombofStPeter-1.htm
 
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