What is Christ's Church?

[ALLFORHIM]

The Church is that community of followers of Jesus which was at one time led by the Apostles, and is now led by their successors.

The Holy Spirit works through this Church community, guarding it from error, and reminding it of the truths of the faith that come from the Apostles. Members of this Church trust that the teachings of the Church are true because the Church is protected from error.

Individuals are not protected from error; only the Church is. There are times when the Pope is protected from promulgating error, but it’s not all the time, or even most of the time. He is the only human being on earth who is ever individually protected from error in this way, even sometimes. The rest of us rely on the teachings of the Church to protect us from error.

That’s how the Holy Spirit works in the Church.

But the Holy Spirit can also work outside of the Church, in order to bring people into the Church. For example, many RCIA candidates report that the Holy Spirit moved them to consider the Catholic Church, and actually directed them to come to RCIA meetings.

The Holy Spirit also works in other denominations to gradually bring them closer to the truth; for example, many Protestant denominations are getting the word on birth control and realizing that it is a bad idea - they are starting to teach against it, and encouraging their married couples to choose life. Other denominations are discovering the beauties of the Lectionary, and using it in their worship services in place of the “pick a random Bible verse” method of teaching.

Hi,
Im back
Do you believe that the Holy Spirit dwells within people?

 

[ALLFORHIM]

You personally?

Just you alone, or everyone, each individually? And if everyone, then why are there so many different denominations? Each individual that has accepted Christ has the indwelling of the Holy Spirit. So not just me but I hope many more. I dont know why there are so many denominations.

I agree with that. When human beings think they know more than God does, we get divisions in the Church.

Who knows maybe. The more I learn the further away I am turning for catholocism. I was almost better off being ignorant of catholocism.

 

[jmcrae]

Hi,
Im back
Do you believe that the Holy Spirit dwells within people?

I don’t believe that each of us individually is a Pope; I believe that God only appoints one Pope at a time - but I do believe that we are all led by the Holy Spirit, to some extent. It’s the Holy Spirit who shows us the Church.

 

[ALLFORHIM]

Hi,

Acts 2:38–39, Acts 8:14–17, 1 Corinthians 3:16-17, 1Corinthians 6:15–20, Ephesians1:13–14, Ephesians 2:19-22, Ephesians 5:15–21, Phillipians 1:9–11, Phillipians 2:1

1 Corinthians 2:6–16, John 7:37–39 John 16:5–16, Acts 1:4–5, Romans 2:28–29, 1 Corinthians 12:1–3, Ephesians 6:17–18, 1 Peter 1:1-2, 1 John 2:26–27, Romans 8:1–17

1

. As a Catholic, I don’t believe any of us are “saved”.

Well that is so sad for you.

1. I believe that the Holy Ghost works through the Catholic Church to protect the deposit of faith and to guarantee all believers that the Truth is always taught.

The only way the Holy Spirit can work through the CC is by individuals that have the Holy Spirit in them–notice the Scripture above:thumbsup:

 

[ALLFORHIM]

I don’t believe that each of us individually is a Pope; I believe that God only appoints one Pope at a time - but I do believe that we are all led by the Holy Spirit, to some extent. It’s the Holy Spirit who shows us the Church.

Hi read my other post with the scripture I put forth about the Holy Spirit:thumbsup: If those are not clear cut to you then well I dont know what to say.

 

[jmcrae]

Hi read my other post with the scripture I put forth about the Holy Spirit:thumbsup: If those are not clear cut to you then well I dont know what to say.

So if all of us are individually Popes, then why do we each have different beliefs?

If the same Holy Spirit is giving clearly audible locutions to each of us, then we should all be hearing and believing exactly the same teachings, don’t you think? By the way, I have had audible locutions from the Holy Spirit on a few occasions, and each time, they were reaffirming the Catholic Church as the one true Church - so, yes, I have the Holy Spirit, and my Holy Spirit is the spirit of the Catholic Church.

By the way, the verses you cited are speaking to the Apostles (Catholic Church leaders) and to groups of Christians: not individually to you or to me.

 

[Randy_Carson]

…as far as I know the church is the body of christ, and anyone who believes in christ is of the body of christ. Christ himself says, “that which you do unto the least of these, you do unto me”.

This is my view of the church in a nutshell, but I’m pretty sure that when a catholic speaks of rejecting the “church” they are reffering to the theocratic heirarchy of the preists, bishops, pope(s), etc…

I was wondering if anyone would clarify this issue for me.

In Christ’s Love,

Skeptictank

Okay.

Let’s start at the beginning…Which of the following is true?

1. Jesus established more than one church.
2. Jesus established one, invisible church which all true believers must belong to regardless of their denomination, and in order for this to be true, one of the following must also be true:
   A. Doctrinal differences don’t matter, or
   B. Conflicting and contradictory doctrines are permitted.
3. Jesus established one, visible church which all true believers must belong to, and in order for this to be true, doctrinal unity MUST be a characteristic of this church.

Please let me know which of these options you agree with, and we’ll go from there.

 

[ALLFORHIM]

So if all of us are individually Popes, then why do we each have different beliefs?

AH YES but doesnt the Bible transend time It is referring to the Apostles who were told by Jesus to go out to the world and make disciples of all nations. That would include ALL OF US from generation to Generation:thumbsup: That my friend would include you and me. Also the group of christians were the first to be told about Christ and if they believed they received the promise of the Holy Spirit. The group of Christians werent Apostles but yet they received the gift. So why wouldnt we be able to receive it as well?

[/QUOTE]

 

[runandsew]

Hi,
I am going to write this then I have to go. We believe that the Holy Spirit is our authority guiding us to the truth. When man’s word is added into the mix(tradition) that is where I believe things start to go wrong. Honestly, if you take away Sacred Tradition, the bible stands alone just fine!! Us humans didnt need to add anything too it. This is my personal opinion. Of course I know many many people that would agree with me. I may have not said this before this forum, but since I have learned much about the CC, I have discovered that I can not rely on Sacred Tradition to necessarily be the truth. Im sorry and I dont mean to sound disrespectful, it is just how I am seeing it.

The Scriptures are truth; they are God breathed, and infallible. But unfortunately our interpretation is not infallible.
That is why Jesus sent the Holy Spirit, to lead the Church to all truth. Jesus was speaking to his Apostles when he gave this promise, not to all the disciples that were following him. And so the Apostles and there successors were given the Holy Spirit to Guide them to the infallible interpretation of Scripture.
As it says in 1 Timothy 3:15: “the household of God, which is the church of the living God, the pillar and foundation of truth.”
. Now if the Truth is Scripture, then the Church is the protector of that truth, or the protector of Scripture. The Church doesn’t “add” to Scripture, all of its Sacred Tradition and teaching Magisterium is the Churches infallible interpretation of Scripture. If someone feels that this interpretation contradicts scripture, then I would suggest that it only contradicts their fallible interpretation of Scripture.

The Bible clearly shows the establishment of a Church, it shows that this Church is visible, and that this Church has a hierarchal leadership, and that it has Apostolic succession. It shows that this church can gather in a council to settle disputes for the “whole” Church.
Though we are “church”, we are not “The” Church.
We are the body of Christ, but that doesn’t take away the fact that Jesus established a visible Church.

 

[mrs_abbott]

I don’t believe that each of us individually is a Pope; I believe that God only appoints one Pope at a time - but I do believe that we are all led by the Holy Spirit, to some extent. It’s the Holy Spirit who shows us the Church.

How do you know when you’re being led by the Holy Spirit?

 

[mrs_abbott]

As it says in 1 Timothy 3:15: “the household of God, which is the church of the living God, the pillar and foundation of truth.”
. Now if the Truth is Scripture, then the Church is the protector of that truth, or the protector of Scripture. The Church doesn’t “add” to Scripture, all of its Sacred Tradition and teaching Magisterium is the Churches infallible interpretation of Scripture. If someone feels that this interpretation contradicts scripture, then I would suggest that it only contradicts their fallible interpretation of Scripture.

The Bible clearly shows the establishment of a Church, it shows that this Church is visible, and that this Church has a hierarchal leadership, and that it has Apostolic succession. It shows that this church can gather in a council to settle disputes for the “whole” Church.
Though we are “church”, we are not “The” Church.
We are the body of Christ, but that doesn’t take away the fact that Jesus established a visible Church.

Ok, I was following you until the end here. You said “though we are ‘church’, we are not ‘The’ Church.” Who is “the” Church then?

 

[runandsew]

The Church is both invisible and visible.
We as Christians are the “body of Christ”
that is the invisible part, we gain this trough baptism, but the Church also has a visible structure to it.
This is a “both/and” issue, not an “either/or” issue.
It is both visible and invisible, not either visible or invisible.
I have to get to work so I can’t write anymore, I hope that made a little sense.

 

[mrs_abbott]

The Church is both invisible and visible.
We as Christians are the “body of Christ”
that is the invisible part, we gain this trough baptism, but the Church also has a visible structure to it.
This is a “both/and” issue, not an “either/or” issue.
It is both visible and invisible, not either visible or invisible.
I have to get to work so I can’t write anymore, I hope that made a little sense.

Ok, I understand what you’re saying and I’m really not trying to be a smart alec here but I’m asking this just to better understand.
How do you know the Church is both visible and invisible? Jesus never spoke of two churches in the Bible.

 

[jmcrae]

Because not all of us are true popes(as you put it) I would call us believers.
Yes you are correct . However, not all can understand the truth because not all are filled with the Holy Spirit.

And how do you tell who’s who? After all, a Pentecostal would say that a Baptist hasn’t got the Holy Spirit because he doesn’t speak in tongues, and the Baptist would say that the Pentecostal hasn’t got the Holy Spirit because he babbles like a pagan and he doesn’t conduct his service of worship in a sober and orderly manner.

How can you tell which camp (if either) is right, in this instance? Both claim to be filled with the Holy Spirit, and each claims that the other is possessed of a false spirit.

Both use the Scriptures to defend their opinions.

AH YES but doesnt the Bible transend time It is referring to the Apostles who were told by Jesus to go out to the world and make disciples of all nations. That would include ALL OF US from generation to Generation:thumbsup:

It certainly includes all who follow the teachings of the Apostles. But does it include absolutely everyone who says the name Jesus? What of people who say that Jesus is an alien from outer space? Are they also included? Or is there more to it than that? Is correct doctrine (the teachings of the Apostles) important, or can we just believe whatever we want to believe?

The group of Christians werent Apostles but yet they received the gift. So why wouldnt we be able to receive it as well?

But they followed the teachings of the Apostles and were baptized into their Church, and attended their Masses. They didn’t go off and found their own denomination - they stayed with the Apostles, and kept learning from them. They didn’t just grab a Bible and then go off on their own.

 

[jmcrae]

Ok, I understand what you’re saying and I’m really not trying to be a smart alec here but I’m asking this just to better understand.
How do you know the Church is both visible and invisible? Jesus never spoke of two churches in the Bible.

There aren’t two churches; there is only one.

But the visible Church has an invisible component of members who are not aware of the existence of the visible Church, but who, if they were aware of it, would certainly become joined to it in a visible manner. They are just as much members of the Church as we are, and when they go to the Judgement, they will be surprised at first to learn that they have been Catholics all this time - but they will say, “Oh, yes - of course!!”

 

[runandsew]

Ok, I understand what you’re saying and I’m really not trying to be a smart alec here but I’m asking this just to better understand.
How do you know the Church is both visible and invisible? Jesus never spoke of two churches in the Bible.

jmcrae explained it well, you also might want to compare it to the human. We have the body, and we have the soul.
You can see the body, but the soul is invisible. Though we have these two components, we are just one person.
Again it is just one church.

 

[ALLFORHIM]

And how do you tell who’s who? After all, a Pentecostal would say that a Baptist hasn’t got the Holy Spirit because he doesn’t speak in tongues, and the Baptist would say that the Pentecostal hasn’t got the Holy Spirit because he babbles like a pagan and he doesn’t conduct his service of worship in a sober and orderly manner.

Well that is almost true. The Apostles taught them so they could start a church in their town. They stayed with the Apostles teachings YES but they did start their own church based on their teachings and with the guidance of the Holy Spirit. Obviously as time as played out different ideas and doctrines have made it into churches. I wish we had never split but it is history now and we need to cope with it.

 

[ALLFORHIM]

Okay.

1. Jesus established more than one church.

 

[ALLFORHIM]

The Scriptures are truth; they are God breathed, and infallible. But unfortunately our interpretation is not infallible.
That is why Jesus sent the Holy Spirit, to lead the Church to all truth. Jesus was speaking to his Apostles when he gave this promise, not to all the disciples that were following him. And so the Apostles and there successors were given the Holy Spirit to Guide them to the infallible interpretation of Scripture.
As it says in 1 Timothy 3:15: “the household of God, which is the church of the living God, the pillar and foundation of truth.”
. Now if the Truth is Scripture, then the Church is the protector of that truth, or the protector of Scripture. The Church doesn’t “add” to Scripture, all of its Sacred Tradition and teaching Magisterium is the Churches infallible interpretation of Scripture. If someone feels that this interpretation contradicts scripture, then I would suggest that it only contradicts their fallible interpretation of Scripture.

The Bible clearly shows the establishment of a Church, it shows that this Church is visible, and that this Church has a hierarchal leadership, and that it has Apostolic succession. It shows that this church can gather in a council to settle disputes for the “whole” Church.
Though we are “church”, we are not “The” Church.
We are the body of Christ, but that doesn’t take away the fact that Jesus established a visible Church.

Hi,
Im sorry I dont have time to answer your whole post. Read John 14 and John 16 in regards to the Holy Spirit being for the whole world. The Apostles/12 disciples were the very first to receive the Holy Spirit But it was not just for them. Jesus died for all of our sins and once we repent and receive the gift of eternal life we also are given the gift of the Holy Spirit.

Focus on John 14: 15–31–at one point Jesus generlaizes to anyonethat means through all generations on this earth until Christ comes back and the world is finished.

 

[Blue_Serenity]

And how do you tell who’s who? After all, a Pentecostal would say that a Baptist hasn’t got the Holy Spirit because he doesn’t speak in tongues, and the Baptist would say that the Pentecostal hasn’t got the Holy Spirit because he babbles like a pagan and he doesn’t conduct his service of worship in a sober and orderly manner.

The same way you tell what church to belong to. If they’re saying the Truth (going by the Bible), then they are right in God’s eyes. As long as what they say and do does not contradict scripture, then they are right.

jmcrae:

How can you tell which camp (if either) is right, in this instance? Both claim to be filled with the Holy Spirit, and each claims that the other is possessed of a false spirit.

Just look at the fruits of their church. If they are right, they will be true Christians, as the Bible explains, especially in Hebrews 13.

jmcrae:

Both use the Scriptures to defend their opinions.

Then you have to ask yourself: are they getting the same outcome but just using different procedures to come by that outcome?

jmcrae:

It certainly includes all who follow the teachings of the Apostles. But does it include absolutely everyone who says the name Jesus? What of people who say that Jesus is an alien from outer space? Are they also included? Or is there more to it than that? Is correct doctrine (the teachings of the Apostles) important, or can we just believe whatever we want to believe?

:nope: No, not at all. In fact, the scriptures warn about those who think they can call on the name of Jesus to be saved. You can’t just pretend to care. You have to BELIEVE in Him and in His Word, and then live your life accordingly.
The teachings of the apostles are VERY important!!! Since they walked with Jesus Himself, I can imagine that they knew Him the best. I trust wholeheartedly what they had to say, especially Peter and John.