What is Christ's Church?

[hoosierdaddy]

Why are you so hung up on a particular denomination? We are ALL members of Christ’s church, his body, and hence we all have a shot at salvation if we believe in Him and accept Him in our lives.
Why are you making this more difficult than it has to be?

Because he is being divisive and wants to beat fellow Christians over the head with his “Tradition” and faulty logic into joining his denomination. I have just gotten sick and tired of trying to explain that different demominations STILL believe the same things when it comes to essentials.

Yet, they will say there is no such thing as non-essentials…all while they are saying that Fatima is “not essential” to believe in. And while they do this they still contradict themselves because they say that Christians SHOULD believe in it. My head is spinning from the double talk, semantics, and just plain attempts at robbing us of our place in the Kingdom of God.

Which reminds me, if they go all the way back 2,000 years I guess they fit the role of the big brother in the parable of the prodigal son. Instead of rejoicing with us in Christ, they whine, kick, and throw a temper tantrum. :yup:

 

[mrs_abbott]

What abuses caused them to leave Christs Church?

Take your pick. It seems that ever since the Roman Emperor Theodosius declared Catholic Christianity the official religion of Rome back on Feb.27th, 380 A.D., the tensions started to build.
The Council of Ephesus in 431 A.D. and the Council of Chalcedon in 451 A.D. started the whole “questioning what the church says is right or wrong” trend.
Then the East-West Schism of 1054 A.D. split the CC down the middle.
It pretty much left things wide open for the Protestant Reformation in the 16th century. All it took was a few people not afraid to speak up.

 

[hoosierdaddy]

But the ancestors of the church you belong to separated themselves from His Church, (which is why they go by the name of ‘protestant’), and then declined several invitations to return when their demands were addressed and they no longer had any grievance against His Church.

Wrong! They were excommunicated for daring to speak against the authorities and telling them they were in error. Their demands were not met completely or else they would have returned. Of course they had a grievance against the RCC. It holds to this day. Oh yeah, and I’m a Protestant and also a member of “His Church”. If you don’t like that, take it up with Him! I mean God, not the Pope.

 

[I_Leatherman]

Wrong! They were excommunicated for daring to speak against the authorities and telling them they were in error. Their demands were not met completely or else they would have returned. Of course they had a grievance against the RCC. It holds to this day. Oh yeah, and I’m a Protestant and also a member of “His Church”. If you don’t like that, take it up with Him! I mean God, not the Pope.

What demands were not met?

 

[runandsew]

Hi,
Im sorry I dont have time to answer your whole post. Read John 14 and John 16 in regards to the Holy Spirit being for the whole world. The Apostles/12 disciples were the very first to receive the Holy Spirit But it was not just for them. Jesus died for all of our sins and once we repent and receive the gift of eternal life we also are given the gift of the Holy Spirit.

Focus on John 14: 15–31–at one point Jesus generlaizes to anyonethat means through all generations on this earth until Christ comes back and the world is finished.

True everyone receives does receive the Holy Spirit, but the Bible states that there are different gifts of the Holy Spirit. Does everyone have all the gifts? All Christians have access to these gifts, and if you were to become a Bishop, you would have access to this promise of Jesus. But this was a promise made to the Apostles, that it would lead them to all truth. This doesn’t mean that everyone will be led to all truth. The Holy Spirit that we receive can lead us to understanding of scripture, but that doesn’t make us an infallible interpreter of scripture.

If you receive the Holy Spirit, will he lead you to write an inspired book of the Bible, let’s say “The Gospel according to ALLFORHIM”. No that was only given to a very few people.

In saying that this promise was only made to the Apostles, I am not saying that all Christians did not receive the promise of the Holy Spirit, but I am saying that this particular promise or “gift” of the Holy Spirit was only made to the Apostles and their successors.

 

[mrs_abbott]

What demands were not met?

Why do you dodge the question with another question?

 

[ALLFORHIM]

What abuses caused them to leave Christs Church?

By the early sixtennth century indulgences were aggressively being sold. Many peasants(sp?) were growing increasingly angry at this. Initially Luth wanted to just fix the wrongs within the church but well we all know that didnt happen so here we are.
Luther’s 3 main problems with the CC was of course indulgences, Popes authority and forgiving sins, and the true treasure of the church which Luther believed was the gospel message of salvation and not the good works of Christ and the Saints.

Because the CC was abusing the sale of indulgences, it seemed to be enough to create the split. People were so mad that they jumped at the chance to get away from the control of the CC. I have been reading this in a history book written by a catholic and Protestant. What I found interesting is that Luther started to have concerns about the CC and the belief system after he started doing translation work(of the bible) as a professor. Im wondering if maybe he never really studied the bible thoroughly until he had to pick it apart to translate it and through his thorough study was like WOW this isnt what the CC believes This is just my HO.

 

[ALLFORHIM]

True everyone receives does receive the Holy Spirit, but the Bible states that there are different gifts of the Holy Spirit. Does everyone have all the gifts? All Christians have access to these gifts, and if you were to become a Bishop, you would have access to this promise of Jesus. But this was a promise made to the Apostles, that it would lead them to all truth. This doesn’t mean that everyone will be led to all truth. The Holy Spirit that we receive can lead us to understanding of scripture, but that doesn’t make us an infallible interpreter of scripture.

I somewhat agree with you. I agree that the gift is only given to certain people. In my christian circles the gift of preaching was given to ministers/pastors and priests. As we know some are better then others and some think they have the gift but they dont.

 

[I_Leatherman]

-Indulgences
-Popes authority
-Forgiving sins
-The true treasure of the church which Luther believed was the gospel message of salvation and not the good works of Christ and the Saints.

Anything else?

*I’m not too clear on what you mean in the last one.
And also with forgiving sins.

 

[I_Leatherman]

Why do you dodge the question with another question?

Sorry…what was the question again?

 

[mrs_abbott]

Sorry…what was the question again?

Nevermind. Not important.

 

[jmcrae]

I have just gotten sick and tired of trying to explain that different demominations STILL believe the same things when it comes to essentials.

I gave you two examples of churches that totally disagree on what the “essentials” are, and you still haven’t told me which one is right, or how you would know.

 

[runandsew]

I somewhat agree with you. I agree that the gift is only given to certain people. In my christian circles the gift of preaching was given to ministers/pastors and priests. As we know some are better then others and some think they have the gift but they dont.

Does every Christian receive the promise of the Holy Spirit in John 20:23 “Receive the Holy Spirit; whose sins you forgive are forgiven them, and whose sins you retain are retained.”
And in John 14:26 “The Advocate, the holy Spirit that the Father will send in my name–he will teach you everything and remind you of all that I told you.

We recieve the Holy Spirit, but are we also given these gifts?
No. What I was saying in my earlier post was that the infallible teaching authority of the Holy Spirit was only given to the Apostles, and it can be shown that they were able to pass this on to their sucessors.

 

[jmcrae]

Wrong! They were excommunicated for daring to speak against the authorities and telling them they were in error.

If that were true, then why weren’t St. Catherine of Sienna, St. Teresa of Avila, St. John of the Cross, and St. Ignatius of Loyola also excommunicated? Along with many other Reformation Saints?

Since they brought a lot of abuses to the attention of the authorities, too, and did whatever they could to correct them.

The difference is that the Saints worked with the authorities of the Church; not against them - and they didn’t go around killing people or burning down churches and monasteries every time somebody said “No” or “Not yet” to them.

 

[Blue_Serenity]

If that were true, then why weren’t St. Catherine of Sienna, St. Teresa of Avila, St. John of the Cross, and St. Ignatius of Loyola also excommunicated? Along with many other Reformation Saints?

Since they brought a lot of abuses to the attention of the authorities, too, and did whatever they could to correct them.

The difference is that the Saints worked with the authorities of the Church; not against them - and they didn’t go around killing people or burning down churches and monasteries every time somebody said “No” or “Not yet” to them.

How come these saints aren’t mentioned in the Counter-Reformation? All I read about are the various popes that tried different revival tactics, like making more restrictive doctrines, etc.

 

[jmcrae]

Take your pick. It seems that ever since the Roman Emperor Theodosius declared Catholic Christianity the official religion of Rome back on Feb.27th, 380 A.D., the tensions started to build.
The Council of Ephesus in 431 A.D. and the Council of Chalcedon in 451 A.D. started the whole “questioning what the church says is right or wrong” trend.
Then the East-West Schism of 1054 A.D. split the CC down the middle.
It pretty much left things wide open for the Protestant Reformation in the 16th century. All it took was a few people not afraid to speak up.

What kind of a crazy person would leave Christ’s Church because of the sins of their fellow human beings? No matter how bad things get, the only saviour we have is Jesus, and the only Ark of Salvation we have is His Church.

Jumping out only hurts ourselves, and it certainly doesn’t fix anything.

 

[Blue_Serenity]

What kind of a crazy person would leave Christ’s Church because of the sins of their fellow human beings? No matter how bad things get, the only saviour we have is Jesus, and the only Ark of Salvation we have is His Church.

Jumping out only hurts ourselves, and it certainly doesn’t fix anything.

Ya but it certainly questions the stability of the Catholic Church who translates the Bible to fit THEIR church (“and the gates of Hell will not prevail against it”). Notice, it doesn’t say triumph, just prevail, which could be a temporary thing but nonetheless it’s definitely NOT perfect!!!

 

[jmcrae]

How come these saints aren’t mentioned in the Counter-Reformation? All I read about are the various popes that tried different revival tactics, like making more restrictive doctrines, etc.

I have no idea what you’re reading, but these Saints are very, very well known. Your public library should have a whole section of historical and biographical material on them, in Dewey Decimal section 271. You can also find their actual writings in Dewey Decimal section 240.

 

[jmcrae]

Ya but it certainly questions the stability of the Catholic Church who translates the Bible to fit THEIR church (“and the gates of Hell will not prevail against it”). Notice, it doesn’t say triumph, just prevail, which could be a temporary thing but nonetheless it’s definitely NOT perfect!!!

Nobody ever said it was. Where would we be today, if the 11 had all gone off to found their own denominations after Judas betrayed Jesus? I don’t think anything worse than that has happened in the Church since then. If they could stick with Jesus even in spite of that, then I don’t see why we can’t with much less serious problems.

 

[Blue_Serenity]

I have no idea what you’re reading, but these Saints are very, very well known. Your public library should have a whole section of historical and biographical material on them, in Dewey Decimal section 271. You can also find their actual writings in Dewey Decimal section 240.

You’re giving me more credit than I can claim. I never read any books on it. I simply “googled” it and it started talking about Luther and the Reformation and then the popes over the next couple of centuries starting a Counter-Reformation to try and revive the CC.
Have you never heard of the Counter-Reformation???