What is Christ's Church?

[Blue_Serenity]

Nobody ever said it was. Where would we be today, if the 11 had all gone off to found their own denominations after Judas betrayed Jesus? I don’t think anything worse than that has happened in the Church since then. If they could stick with Jesus even in spite of that, then I don’t see why we can’t with much less serious problems.

You’re starting to slide towards a Protestants way of thinking. We’re not concerned with denomination and who’s church is right or wrong but we focus on the gospel message and the teachings of Jesus and what He instructs us to do.
As long as we stick with Jesus, we’ll be alright!

 

[Sixtus]

The title pretty much says it. I was reading a catholic’s post wherein he/she said that anyone who rejects the church will go to hell. I thought that was interesting because as far as I know the church is the body of christ, and anyone who believes in christ is of the body of christ. Christ himself says, “that which you do unto the least of these, you do unto me”.

This is my view of the church in a nutshell, but I’m pretty sure that when a catholic speaks of rejecting the “church” they are reffering to the theocratic heirarchy of the preists, bishops, pope(s), etc…

I was wondering if anyone would clarify this issue for me.

I agree with that

Would add that East and West are two sides of the same coin

 

[hoosierdaddy]

If that were true, then why weren’t St. Catherine of Sienna, St. Teresa of Avila, St. John of the Cross, and St. Ignatius of Loyola also excommunicated? Along with many other Reformation Saints?

Since they brought a lot of abuses to the attention of the authorities, too, and did whatever they could to correct them.

The difference is that the Saints worked with the authorities of the Church; not against them - and they didn’t go around killing people or burning down churches and monasteries every time somebody said “No” or “Not yet” to them.

Riiight. They just went around killing people who wouldn’t convert to Catholicism in the first place.

When did Luther kill people and burn down a church? I would never kill a person but which is worse? The CC burning “heretics” at the stake or the Protestants burning “buildings” to the ground?

 

[jmcrae]

Riiight. They just went around killing people who wouldn’t convert to Catholicism in the first place.

Document even one instance of this.

When did Luther kill people and burn down a church?

A good article on Martin Luther can be found HERE.

I would never kill a person but which is worse? The CC burning “heretics” at the stake or the Protestants burning “buildings” to the ground?

Those buildings were full of orphaned children and the people who were taking care of them.

Who is more guilty - heretics who want to destroy entire cities and put them to the flame, or little children who are just trying to get something to eat and a warm place to sleep?

 

[jmcrae]

As long as we stick with Jesus, we’ll be alright!

So, then, why don’t you? Instead of starting up your own churches, and straying away from His teachings?

 

[ALLFORHIM]

-Indulgences
-Popes authority
-Forgiving sins
-The true treasure of the church which Luther believed was the gospel message of salvation and not the good works of Christ and the Saints.

Anything else?

*I’m not too clear on what you mean in the last one.
And also with forgiving sins.

Hi,
Nope I think that was the jist of it back then. The treasure one I assume was because of the selling of indulgences people were being taught they could buy their way either into or heaven or a shorter stay in purgatory. We all know that is false.

The forgiveness of sins–Im not quite sure about this one either. Im going to go out on a limb here and say it was the Priest confession thing. Luther may have discovered that we can go straight to God to confess our sins instead of the need to go to a priest. Luther did believe that all believers were part of the priesthood, so that is where is line of thinking may have come from on that point.

 

[ALLFORHIM]

So, then, why don’t you? Instead of starting up your own churches, and straying away from His teachings?

Hi,
Sticking with the bible is sticking with Jesus

 

[ALLFORHIM]

Document even one instance of this.

A good article on Martin Luther can be found HERE.

Those buildings were full of orphaned children and the people who were taking care of them.

Who is more guilty - heretics who want to destroy entire cities and put them to the flame, or little children who are just trying to get something to eat and a warm place to sleep?

Hi,

Its all bad and both sides were wrong. Both sides killed for the sake of Jesus Christ so this would be a mute argument. Shall we move on.

 

[jmcrae]

Hi,
Sticking with the bible is sticking with Jesus

Not if you can’t figure out once and for all what it actually means.

Protestants disagree with each other about what the Bible says in many essential (that is, salvation-related) areas, and there’s no way to determine which (if any) has the correct interpretation.

That’s why we have to go back to the Apostles and their followers - what did the Early Church think it meant, when they were sitting at the feet of Peter, John, and Paul? This is the Holy Tradition, and it’s so important because it tells us what we are actually supposed to believe, rather than trying to figure it all out for ourselves.

 

[ALLFORHIM]

Not if you can’t figure out once and for all what it actually means.

I thought Holy Tradition came straight from Jesus not what the ECF thought the bible meant.

 

[Image_of_God]

I thought Holy Tradition came straight from Jesus not what the ECF thought the bible meant.

Remember that there is a such thing as Apostolic Succession. Jesus taught the Apostles, and the Apostles taught the Early Fathers.
It is important to know that the Bible covers everything that is need for salvation, but not everything that the Apostles did and taught. That is why the ECF’s are extremey important.

 

[jmcrae]

Protestants disagree with each other about what the Bible says in many essential (that is, salvation-related) areas, and there’s no way to determine which (if any) has the correct interpretation.

No one can tell me which one is right: the Pentecostals or the Baptists.

They disagree with each other completely on important issues of salvation. They have just about nothing in common. They not only don’t “agree on the essentials,” each thinks that the other is possessed by a false spirit (to put it mildly).

Both of them support their opinions with Scripture. Each can prove from Scripture that the other has a false spirit, and that they themselves have the truth.

How does a Protestant figure out which one is right (if any)? Since they can’t go back to the Early Church to see what the Apostles thought. They have to go by Scripture Alone.

 

[ALLFORHIM]

Remember that there is a such thing as Apostolic Succession. Jesus taught the Apostles, and the Apostles taught the Early Fathers.
It is important to know that the Bible covers everything that is need for salvation, but not everything that the Apostles did and taught. That is why the ECF’s are extremey important.

So, did the ECF’s write down ALL of Sacred Tradtion?
If I read the ECF will I then know what the CC means by Sacred Tradition?

Also, didnt I hear that all Sacred Tradition is based in Scripture? If that is true why do we need it? Im not trying to be mean just curious.

 

[ALLFORHIM]

No one can tell me which one is right: the Pentecostals or the Baptists.

They disagree with each other completely on important issues of salvation. They have just about nothing in common. They not only don’t “agree on the essentials,” each thinks that the other is possessed by a false spirit (to put it mildly).

Both of them support their opinions with Scripture. Each can prove from Scripture that the other has a false spirit, and that they themselves have the truth.

How does a Protestant figure out which one is right (if any)? Since they can’t go back to the Early Church to see what the Apostles thought. They have to go by Scripture Alone.

Hi,
The only comment I can make on this is I use to go to a southern baptist church and I agree with them 100%. I dont know anything about Pentacostals.

 

[jmcrae]

So, did the ECF’s write down ALL of Sacred Tradtion?

Not really, since a lot of things can’t be put into words. But they certainly allude to a lot of things, and help us know how to identify whether something is Sacred Tradition or not.

If I read the ECF will I then know what the CC means by Sacred Tradition?

Yes, I think so.

Also, didnt I hear that all Sacred Tradition is based in Scripture? If that is true why do we need it? Im not trying to be mean just curious.

Other way around - Sacred Tradition came first, and then came Scripture. Scripture comes from Sacred Tradition.

 

[I_Leatherman]

Hi,
Nope I think that was the jist of it back then. The treasure one I assume was because of the selling of indulgences people were being taught they could buy their way either into or heaven or a shorter stay in purgatory. We all know that is false.

The forgiveness of sins–Im not quite sure about this one either. Im going to go out on a limb here and say it was the Priest confession thing. Luther may have discovered that we can go straight to God to confess our sins instead of the need to go to a priest. Luther did believe that all believers were part of the priesthood, so that is where is line of thinking may have come from on that point.

Allf,

You are alive in the year 1401 A.D., how are you ‘saved’?

(just interested…I think)

 

[ALLFORHIM]

Not really, since a lot of things can’t be put into words. But they certainly allude to a lot of things, and help us know how to identify whether something is Sacred Tradition or not.

Yes, I think so.

Other way around - Sacred Tradition came first, and then came Scripture. Scripture comes from Sacred Tradition.

Hi,
Thank you for your answer. I also want to say that it has been a pleasure talking with you. It is nice when we can keep emotions out of the debates.

 

[ALLFORHIM]

Allf,

You are alive in the year 1401 A.D., how are you ‘saved’?

(just interested…I think)

Im sorry Im confused by your question Do you mean because I was not alive in 1401 how do I know I am saved?

 

[jmcrae]

Im sorry Im confused by your question Do you mean because I was not alive in 1401 how do I know I am saved?

Imagine that you are a person who lives in the year 1401, before there were any Protestant churches in existence.

Hundreds of years before there was such a thing as “the sinner’s prayer,” the “Four Spiritual Laws,” or an “altar call.”

Decades before the invention of the printing press - any Bibles you know of are made by hand, and cost 25 years’ wages.

The only Church for you to attend is a Catholic Church.

The only Scripture you know is what is read out to you at Mass, and what you see in street theatre and in Church art.

How do you “get saved?”

 

[ALLFORHIM]

Imagine that you are a person who lives in the year 1401, before there were any Protestant churches in existence.

Hundreds of years before there was such a thing as “the sinner’s prayer,” the “Four Spiritual Laws,” or an “altar call.”

Decades before the invention of the printing press - any Bibles you know of are made by hand, and cost 25 years’ wages.

The only Church for you to attend is a Catholic Church.

The only Scripture you know is what is read out to you at Mass, and what you see in street theatre and in Church art.

How do you “get saved?”

Well, that is difficult for me to answer because I dont want to come across disrespectful-- so I might need to plead the fifth on this one.