What is Church's official position on the Jews?

[Ghosty]

Which gods would these be? The gods of Old Europe?

Demons take many guises. The gods of Old Europe may well have been the very same demons that the Caananites worshipped, or the demons that the Caananites worshipped may have masked themselves as the gods of pagan Europe to the Nazis. It’s really hard to say for certain. All that can be said is that demons/gods are REAL, and have been active in history, though not always in the manner hailed by their followers. Personally I believe that the Nazis, at least the higher-ups, were directly involved in demonic worship, and that they really believed they were paying homage to their gods. Hitlers close circle was heavily steeped in mysticism and the occult, and I have no doubt that they found a source of power in it.

 

[Jew_Man_73]

This might be a stupid question, but how can I know that Jesus is really the Messiah?

 

[Ghosty]

According to Judaism, anyone who converts to the faith becomes a Jew. I’m pretty sure all branches teach this.

In faith, yes, but not in blood. I could not become a Levite by adoption of Judaism, for example. The Covenant of Abraham and Moses has elements of both faith (the laws) and blood (your descendants shall be more numerous than the stars in the sky). All members of Judaism have a different place depending on their ties by blood (the cohen families, for example). I’m actually quite interested in knowing how exactly converts to Judaism fit into the distinct intra-tribal character of Judaism, in the sense of what “house” they fall into, if any. I’m sure I remember hearing that in the Temple days, proselytes (converts) were not allowed into the same parts of the Temple as born-Jews, but I can’t recall the details. Those are the aspects of the faith I’m refering to, not the general inclusion of the Jewish title. As I’ve said, in that sense the Church and Judaism agree.

By the way, there are many Jews who do know the NT well. My rabbi knows it from cover to cover. I don’t, though.

Believe me, I know. My “proper” introduction to Jesus was through Orthodox Jewish readings of the Gospels. I wasn’t saying that there aren’t Jews who don’t know the New Testament, just that the New Testament is not properly a part of “Jewish Study” (and why the heck SHOULD it be) like the Tanakh is for Christians. I also wasn’t trying to say that any given Christian has a better understanding of the New Testament than a Jew who has studied it; if that were the case then no Christians would over look the passages of Paul’s that I cited above.

 

[Jew_Man_73]

Ghosty:

In faith, yes, but not in blood. I could not become a Levite by adoption of Judaism, for example. The Covenant of Abraham and Moses has elements of both faith (the laws) and blood (your descendants shall be more numerous than the stars in the sky). All members of Judaism have a different place depending on their ties by blood (the cohen families, for example). I’m actually quite interested in knowing how exactly converts to Judaism fit into the distinct intra-tribal character of Judaism, in the sense of what “house” they fall into, if any. I’m sure I remember hearing that in the Temple days, proselytes (converts) were not allowed into the same parts of the Temple as born-Jews, but I can’t recall the details. Those are the aspects of the faith I’m refering to, not the general inclusion of the Jewish title. As I’ve said, in that sense the Church and Judaism agree.

Believe me, I know. My “proper” introduction to Jesus was through Orthodox Jewish readings of the Gospels. I wasn’t saying that there aren’t Jews who don’t know the New Testament, just that the New Testament is not properly a part of “Jewish Study” (and why the heck SHOULD it be) like the Tanakh is for Christians. I also wasn’t trying to say that any given Christian has a better understanding of the New Testament than a Jew who has studied it; if that were the case then no Christians would over look the passages of Paul’s that I cited above.

Ah, now we come to a bit of a sticky subject. How converts are regarded depends on the particular branch of Judaism. For example, Reform and Orthodox regard converts differently. I won’t get into it here. That alone could be it’s own thread. Sometimes I think Jews are just as divided as Christians are.

 

[Ghosty]

This might be a stupid question, but how can I know that Jesus is really the Messiah?

The same way you can know that God made a Covenant with your grandfather Abraham; it’s a matter of faith. I can explain the reasons why I think he fits the Messianic expectation (though obviously not the post-Second Temple expectation that has been shaped by the post-Christian history), but ultimately that wouldn’t help you to know or not know that he was the Messiah. There are many rational arguments for him being the Messiah, but as you know there is no rational argument that “proves” God, and God is so great that He defies such petty proofs anyway.

Again I point you to “Salvation is from the Jews”, which deals nicely with the rational arguments for Jesus being the Messiah, and does so from a Jewish perspective. The author does a better job than I ever could as a non-Jew.

 

[Jew_Man_73]

Ghosty:

The same way you can know that God made a Covenant with your grandfather Abraham; it’s a matter of faith. I can explain the reasons why I think he fits the Messianic expectation (though obviously not the post-Second Temple expectation that has been shaped by the post-Christian history), but ultimately that wouldn’t help you to know or not know that he was the Messiah. There are many rational arguments for him being the Messiah, but as you know there is no rational argument that “proves” God, and God is so great that He defies such petty proofs anyway.

Again I point you to “Salvation is from the Jews”, which deals nicely with the rational arguments for Jesus being the Messiah, and does so from a Jewish perspective. The author does a better job than I ever could as a non-Jew.

Ok, I’m going to read this book and give it a chance. Instead of waiting for it to arrive in the mail, I think I’ll drive to the bookstore and buy it.

 

[Ghosty]

Ah, now we come to a bit of a sticky subject. How converts are regarded depends on the particular branch of Judaism. For example, Reform and Orthodox regard converts differently. I won’t get into it here. That alone could be it’s own thread. Sometimes I think Jews are just as divided as Christians are.

Precisely. This is why I’m so adamant that the Catholic Church isn’t actually as far outside of Judaism as many Jews may think, at least at its formation. If one takes the belief that Jesus is the Jewish Messiah, and that it is now time for Gentiles to fully enter the “Kingdom”, then there still remains the question of what the heck that actually entails. The Catholic Church, while peculiar to modern Jewish eyes, is actually simply the result of that debate being settled by practicing Jews who happened to believe in this particular man as the Messiah. One can easily imagine the Church as the kind of set up embraced by certain Jews if they recognized a modern individual as the Messiah tomorrow. That’s one of the things that convinced me of Catholicism as opposed to other types of Christianity.

Of course I’m not trying to minimize our differences. Two thousand years of seperation and divergent theology is absolutely nothing to sneeze at. My main point is that the Church’s set up was actually devised by Jewish minds working on the problem of “where do we put the Gentiles”, rather than a Gentile concoction that was foisted upon Judaic beliefs. Unfortunately the Jews were assimilated after centuries, and those that did not were still ostracized from their Jewish families for entering the Church, and died with no way to pass on their particular cultural traits as opposed to, say the Irish who have a distinct identity even within the Church because they converted en masse. That’s why I praise the Association of Hebrew Catholics, who are trying to reclaim and maintain the Jewish identity of Jews who enter the Church.

On a side note, which “branch” of Judaism do you practice?

 

[Ghosty]

Ok, I’m going to read this book and give it a chance. Instead of waiting for it to arrive in the mail, I think I’ll drive to the bookstore and buy it.

Good, it’s one of my personal favorites I’m actually interested in hearing a Jewish, non-Catholic perspective on it. I gave my copy to my Conservative Jewish friend today. I recommend it not as a tool to convert Jews, but rather as a way for Jews to better understand the Jewish characteristics of the Catholic faith. Since I read it when I was already Catholic, I may be immune to any potentially offensive or preachy parts. For me it’s just a good exploration of our Jewish roots, something that all Catholics need more of.

 

[Jew_Man_73]

Ghosty:

Precisely. This is why I’m so adamant that the Catholic Church isn’t actually as far outside of Judaism as many Jews may think, at least at its formation. If one takes the belief that Jesus is the Jewish Messiah, and that it is now time for Gentiles to fully enter the “Kingdom”, then there still remains the question of what the heck that actually entails. The Catholic Church, while peculiar to modern Jewish eyes, is actually simply the result of that debate being settled by practicing Jews who happened to believe in this particular man as the Messiah. One can easily imagine the Church as the kind of set up embraced by certain Jews if they recognized a modern individual as the Messiah tomorrow. That’s one of the things that convinced me of Catholicism as opposed to other types of Christianity.

Of course I’m not trying to minimize our differences. Two thousand years of seperation and divergent theology is absolutely nothing to sneeze at. My main point is that the Church’s set up was actually devised by Jewish minds working on the problem of “where do we put the Gentiles”, rather than a Gentile concoction that was foisted upon Judaic beliefs. Unfortunately the Jews were assimilated after centuries, and those that did not were still ostracized from their Jewish families for entering the Church, and died with no way to pass on their particular cultural traits as opposed to, say the Irish who have a distinct identity even within the Church because they converted en masse. That’s why I praise the Association of Hebrew Catholics, who are trying to reclaim and maintain the Jewish identity of Jews who enter the Church.

On a side note, which “branch” of Judaism do you practice?

Ok, I see a lightbulb starting to flicker on. I think I’m finally understanding what you’re saying. Since the founders of the Catholic Church were Jewish, and so was their Messiah, then the Church is actually Judaism? (I know this is probably VERY simplistic, but please bear with me.) basically, the Catholic Church is actually what G-d intended the new Judaism to be, and all these divisions (both Protestant Christian and Jewish) were never intended by G-d? If both Jews and Gentiles had followed G-d’s plan, there would be no Protestantism or Judaism today, as we know it?
I just finished reading all the gospels and the book of Acts. How did the church go from being a primarily Jewish institution to a primarily Gentile one? I’m confused on that one.
And by the way, I’m Reform. The Orthodox can’t stand us, and the Conservatives don’t like us very much either. And we don’t like them very much in return. It’s sad. With all the anti-Semitism in the world, we still bicker among ourselves. Sometimes I wonder how the Jewish people have survived throughout the centuries.

 

[Jew_Man_73]

Ghosty:

Good, it’s one of my personal favorites I’m actually interested in hearing a Jewish, non-Catholic perspective on it. I gave my copy to my Conservative Jewish friend today. I recommend it not as a tool to convert Jews, but rather as a way for Jews to better understand the Jewish characteristics of the Catholic faith. Since I read it when I was already Catholic, I may be immune to any potentially offensive or preachy parts. For me it’s just a good exploration of our Jewish roots, something that all Catholics need more of.

Excellent. I promise to be open-minded.

 

[Ghosty]

Ok, I see a lightbulb starting to flicker on. I think I’m finally understanding what you’re saying. Since the founders of the Catholic Church were Jewish, and so was their Messiah, then the Church is actually Judaism? (I know this is probably VERY simplistic, but please bear with me.) basically, the Catholic Church is actually what G-d intended the new Judaism to be, and all these divisions (both Protestant Christian and Jewish) were never intended by G-d? If both Jews and Gentiles had followed G-d’s plan, there would be no Protestantism or Judaism today, as we know it?

Yes, that is exactly what we believe God’s plan is/was, and we desperately mourn the seperations that continue to divide us, Jew and Gentile, Catholic and Protestant. This isn’t in any way meant to denigrate the Jewish faith, however, as if it is somehow “not part of God’s plan”. Unlike Protestantism, which the Church believes was a willful rejection of the unity commanded by God, modern Judaism is viewed merely as continuation of the core faith in the perceived absence of the Messiah. The seperation between Protestant and Catholic is willful and destructive, the seperation between modern Judaism and Catholicism is understandable and unfortunate. If I did not believe that the Messiah had come, I would be an Orthodox Jew without any doubt or hesitation; as a person with such a mind who believes that the Messiah has come, and that he was Jesus, I see no alternative but to be Catholic, and I am so without doubt or hesitation.

Personally I wouldn’t say that if God’s plan was adhered to that there wouldn’t be Judaism (though there definately wouldn’t be Protestantism, IMO), but rather that Judaism would now be called Catholicism. Catholic means “universal”, and what is Judaism post-Messiah other than the universal faith of all humanity united in praising God? Judaism won’t disappear after the Messiah comes, it will simply be an unnecessary and cumbersome distinction, as who will be “from Judah” and will not be?

I just finished reading all the gospels and the book of Acts. How did the church go from being a primarily Jewish institution to a primarily Gentile one? I’m confused on that one.

That’s a whole study in and of itself It’s my opinion that the Gentile converts simply began to outnumber the Jews, and they brought so many cultural elements with them that the Jewish elements were kind of drowned out, but not removed. We still have what are essentially rabbis (we call them deacons), and we have a sacrificial priesthood a la the Temple (the Protestants generally do not), in the Western Church we use unleavened bread in our commemoration of the Last Supper at every Mass, which is a Passover seder, we keep the Eucharist, which we consider the the body and blood of Jesus, in a tabernacle (the significance of this is that Jesus is regarded as literally the embodiment of the Word of God, so the connection with the Torah being kept in a tabernacle can not be overstated). Gentiles brought their own little knick-knacks into the “Universal Kingdom”, and Jewish Christians became more and more seperated from their Jewish relatives (usually not by choice, as you can see in Acts and later history), and eventually just kind of “died out”. Sadly this fed the growing perception that Jews who became Catholic were no longer Jews (though, again, in Acts you see that they tried to remain loyal to their synagogues).

As a Reform Jew I’m sure you recognize the “cutting off” that can happen within Judaism when one group doesn’t approve of another, and a kind of mutual exclusion ends up happening. The Jews who became Christian were no longer welcome in their synagogues, and over a few generations most traces of their culture die out as their children are overwhelmed by the cultural influences of the Gentiles.

From a Catholic perspective this doesn’t mean that the Church lost validity as it lost it’s more uniquely Jewish character, but any loss of legitimate cultural identity, which Jewishness certainly is, is a sad thing indeed. Most sad is that it wasn’t until this past century that the Church fully began to realize how much it had lost, and there is a growing effort within the Church by both Jews and non-Jews to dig deeply into those uniquely Jewish elements of our faith, and one of the fruits of that is what we saw in John Paul II’s efforts to reach out to Jews, and the growing identification with Mary, Jesus, and the Apostles specifically as Jews.

Unfortunately as you’ve seen on this thread, not all share my enthusiasm, though most do. Some seem to think (not on this thread) that we either hate Jews, or we hate Jesus, which is a ridiculous dicotomy. We can mourn our seperation, and hope that modern Jews will come to recognize who we earnestly believe to be their Messiah, but to put them down as Jews is to spit in the face of God, and indeed even to spit in the face of God-as-Man who was Himself a Jew.

 

[Jew_Man_73]

Ghosty:

Yes, that is exactly what we believe God’s plan is/was, and we desperately mourn the seperations that continue to divide us, Jew and Gentile, Catholic and Protestant. This isn’t in any way meant to denigrate the Jewish faith, however, as if it is somehow “not part of God’s plan”. Unlike Protestantism, which the Church believes was a willful rejection of the unity commanded by God, modern Judaism is viewed merely as continuation of the core faith in the perceived absence of the Messiah. The seperation between Protestant and Catholic is willful and destructive, the seperation between modern Judaism and Catholicism is understandable and unfortunate. If I did not believe that the Messiah had come, I would be an Orthodox Jew without any doubt or hesitation; as a person with such a mind who believes that the Messiah has come, and that he was Jesus, I see no alternative but to be Catholic, and I am so without doubt or hesitation.

Personally I wouldn’t say that if God’s plan was adhered to that there wouldn’t be Judaism (though there definately wouldn’t be Protestantism, IMO), but rather that Judaism would now be called Catholicism. Catholic means “universal”, and what is Judaism post-Messiah other than the universal faith of all humanity united in praising God? Judaism won’t disappear after the Messiah comes, it will simply be an unnecessary and cumbersome distinction, as who will be “from Judah” and will not be?

That’s a whole study in and of itself It’s my opinion that the Gentile converts simply began to outnumber the Jews, and they brought so many cultural elements with them that the Jewish elements were kind of drowned out, but not removed. We still have what are essentially rabbis (we call them deacons), and we have a sacrificial priesthood a la the Temple (the Protestants generally do not), in the Western Church we use unleavened bread in our commemoration of the Last Supper at every Mass, which is a Passover seder, we keep the Eucharist, which we consider the the body and blood of Jesus, in a tabernacle (the significance of this is that Jesus is regarded as literally the embodiment of the Word of God, so the connection with the Torah being kept in a tabernacle can not be overstated). Gentiles brought their own little knick-knacks into the “Universal Kingdom”, and Jewish Christians became more and more seperated from their Jewish relatives (usually not by choice, as you can see in Acts and later history), and eventually just kind of “died out”. Sadly this fed the growing perception that Jews who became Catholic were no longer Jews (though, again, in Acts you see that they tried to remain loyal to their synagogues).

As a Reform Jew I’m sure you recognize the “cutting off” that can happen within Judaism when one group doesn’t approve of another, and a kind of mutual exclusion ends up happening. The Jews who became Christian were no longer welcome in their synagogues, and over a few generations most traces of their culture die out as their children are overwhelmed by the cultural influences of the Gentiles.

From a Catholic perspective this doesn’t mean that the Church lost validity as it lost it’s more uniquely Jewish character, but any loss of legitimate cultural identity, which Jewishness certainly is, is a sad thing indeed. Most sad is that it wasn’t until this past century that the Church fully began to realize how much it had lost, and there is a growing effort within the Church by both Jews and non-Jews to dig deeply into those uniquely Jewish elements of our faith, and one of the fruits of that is what we saw in John Paul II’s efforts to reach out to Jews, and the growing identification with Mary, Jesus, and the Apostles specifically as Jews.

Unfortunately as you’ve seen on this thread, not all share my enthusiasm, though most do. Some seem to think (not on this thread) that we either hate Jews, or we hate Jesus, which is a ridiculous dicotomy. We can mourn our seperation, and hope that modern Jews will come to recognize who we earnestly believe to be their Messiah, but to put them down as Jews is to spit in the face of God, and indeed even to spit in the face of God-as-Man who was Himself a Jew.

I think it’s very sad that not everyone on your thread shares your enthusiasm. I’ve never understood how a Christian could be anti-Semitic, or even look down on Jews. I mean Jesus was a Jew, according to Christian beliefs. Your analogy of spitting in the face of G-d makes alot of sense to me. Without the Jews, there would be no Chirstianity, after all.
Based on waht you’ve told me, Catholicism is starting to sound like Messianic Judaism. Is that a fair comparison?

 

[Ghosty]

Based on waht you’ve told me, Catholicism is starting to sound like Messianic Judaism. Is that a fair comparison?

Well, Messianic Judaism tends to reject other cultural imput as corruption, with the Church will never do. It’s certainly regaining an appreciation that is reminiscent of Messianic Judaism. Messianic Judaism is also uniquely Protestant in its approach to the New Testament, which is another topic all together, and that colors a lot of what it proclaims. Messianic Judaism was originally a response by Protestant Jews to being essentially forced to lose their Jewish identity. In that sense, the Association of Hebrew Catholics fill the same niche in the Church. I would say that the attitude is becoming similar (that the Jewish cultural identity is something to be cherished and preserved), but the practices and theology (that these cultural aspects are uniquely Salvatory) likely never will.

I’d have to do some more reading on Messianic Jews, however, as I’m not as familiar with them as I could be. Many Jewish Catholics made their first step into Christianity through Messianic Judaism, however.

What has been your experience with them? I’ve heard many Jews complain about their practices.

 

[CARose]

Jew_Man_73:

… How did the church go from being a primarily Jewish institution to a primarily Gentile one? I’m confused on that one. …

Jew_Man,

I was talking about this point exactly in the other thread. Paul (previously named Saul) was the top student of the Top Temple Rabbi until Christ met up with him on the road. (Christ was already ascended by this time, so no-one else saw him but Paul.) Saul was intent on persecuting these followers of Christ whom he felt were posing a serious threat to Judaism with what he believed to be false teachings. After the scales fell from his eyes, he went out to the Gentiles and taught them all that Christ had come to share with all the Nations.

One of the contentious decisions was whether or not circumcision was necessary for the male converts. Paul felt it was unnecessary and that Baptism was the new circumcision, but this was not universally agreed upon, so he returned to Jerusalem where the question was put to the Apostles called together in the first Council of the Church. At that Council, Peter was the final arbitor of the decision and he sent 2 apostles to relay his decision to the church where it had arisen (sorry, I don’t recall the details of where it came up or who was sent to deliver the decision).

Today’s reading was about the change in dietary laws, also decided by Peter. This later became an issue between Peter and Paul when Paul felt that Peter wasn’t living up to the openness necessary as called for by Christ, when offered the opportunity to eat with Gentiles.

Hope this helps,

CARose

 

[Jew_Man_73]

CARose:

Jew_Man,

I was talking about this point exactly in the other thread. Paul (previously named Saul) was the top student of the Top Temple Rabbi until Christ met up with him on the road. (Christ was already ascended by this time, so no-one else saw him but Paul.) Saul was intent on persecuting these followers of Christ whom he felt were posing a serious threat to Judaism with what he believed to be false teachings. After the scales fell from his eyes, he went out to the Gentiles and taught them all that Christ had come to share with all the Nations.

One of the contentious decisions was whether or not circumcision was necessary for the male converts. Paul felt it was unnecessary and that Baptism was the new circumcision, but this was not universally agreed upon, so he returned to Jerusalem where the question was put to the Apostles called together in the first Council of the Church. At that Council, Peter was the final arbitor of the decision and he sent 2 apostles to relay his decision to the church where it had arisen (sorry, I don’t recall the details of where it came up or who was sent to deliver the decision).

Today’s reading was about the change in dietary laws, also decided by Peter. This later became an issue between Peter and Paul when Paul felt that Peter wasn’t living up to the openness necessary as called for by Christ, when offered the opportunity to eat with Gentiles.

Hope this helps,

CARose

Thank you, this helps. I remember reading about Peter refusing to eat with the Gentiles and give up the dietary laws. I;m having trouble understanding why G-d got rid of them, though. Any insights?

 

[CARose]

Jew_Man_73:

I’m having trouble understanding why G-d got rid of them, though. Any insights?

Well, it depends on who you ask.

Ask a Reformed Jew, and I don’t recall the answer.

Ask an Orthodox or Conservative Jew and they’ll assure you the law hasn’t changed.

Ask a Catholic and it’s because Peter had a dream, 3 times, in which he was told by God that all that he had made was good, and hence good to eat. Now, why exactly God chose to make the change, I’ll have to make a personal guess. I only asked when, not why when I was curious.

Why? I would have to say it ties into the fact that the extra laws handed down by God to Moses after the first tablets were broken were removed once Christ came to fulfill the Covenant. So the punishments that were handed down each time a covenant was broken were removed. This would tie in well with no longer requiring circumcision, which if you think about it being imposed on an elderly man, wasn’t a painless, simple way of signifying union with God.

CARose

CARose

 

[Jew_Man_73]

Ghosty:

Well, Messianic Judaism tends to reject other cultural imput as corruption, with the Church will never do. It’s certainly regaining an appreciation that is reminiscent of Messianic Judaism. Messianic Judaism is also uniquely Protestant in its approach to the New Testament, which is another topic all together, and that colors a lot of what it proclaims. Messianic Judaism was originally a response by Protestant Jews to being essentially forced to lose their Jewish identity. In that sense, the Association of Hebrew Catholics fill the same niche in the Church. I would say that the attitude is becoming similar (that the Jewish cultural identity is something to be cherished and preserved), but the practices and theology (that these cultural aspects are uniquely Salvatory) likely never will.

I’d have to do some more reading on Messianic Jews, however, as I’m not as familiar with them as I could be. Many Jewish Catholics made their first step into Christianity through Messianic Judaism, however.

What has been your experience with them? I’ve heard many Jews complain about their practices.

Now you’ve reached an area that I know much about. I’ve had alot of dealings with Messianic Jews. A few years ago, when I was looking for a temple, I started attending a Messianic synagogue. When I called the number to inquire about Shabbat times, they didn’t tell me that they were Messianic. I didn’t know until after I arrived.
I’ve also had many acquaintances invite me to their temple. None of them ever told me that they were Messianic. Just last year a coworker of mine invited me to her temple for Shabbat. They were having their Passover service. She made it sound so great, I accepted her invitation. I was going to go until my rabbi told me a few days later they were Messianic. When I asked my coworker why she withheld this information from me, she responded by saying that she did so because she knew I wouldn’t go if she had been upfront and told me that it was Messianic.
Jews do not consider Messianic Judaism to be a valid branch of Judaism, and neither do I. Its adherents are not considered to be Jewish.
My rabbi puts it like this. “Messianic Jews make as much sense as vegetarians for meat.” Their methods are underhanded. What I just described above is typical of their tactics. It’s fine if you want to believe in Jesus, but be open about your beliefs. I have a couple Reform Jewish friends who went unknowingly to a Messianic synagogue after being invited, only to be surrounded and basically pounced on after the service by several people there, trying to convince them that Yeshua was the Meshiach.
Jews regard Messianic Judaism as being just another evangelical Christian denomination, one that merely uses Hebrew words and throws in a couple Jewish rituals here and there for effect. I agree. Most Messianic synagogues receive alot of support from Southern Baptist and charismatic churches. Their salvation doctrine is identical (sinner’s prayer.) Messianic synagogues are very anti-Catholic, most of the ones I know of don’t even celebrate Christmas, because it’s a Catholic holiday. I even know alot of Christians who feel that Messianic Jews use underhanded practices.
By the way, most Messianic Jews are Gentiles. Very few are Jewish, including the rabbis.
I’m glad to hear the the Catholic Church is not Messianic Judaism.

 

[reen12]

Dear Jew_Man_73,

I stopped reading the posts in this thread when I came
to the post where I read your, to me, plaintive cry:

“You have no idea what it does to me to contemplate leaving the Jewish faith, the pain and turmoil it creates inside me.”
quote, Jew_Man_73.

Would you trust me when I say I do understand?
That last night, after I turned off the computer, I
prayed for you, knowing what pain and turmoil
*had *to accompany such a possible decision?
That identity and faith are so much one that
the turmoil must be immense?

That seeng that some Catholics don’t* grasp*
that the Jews see their covenant as salvific
has to be a deeply wounding experience for you?

A possible buffer against being wounded might
be to picture Jesus and his foster-father, Joseph,
winding the phylacteries on their arms each
morning, placing the band around their head,
and praying: Hear, O Israel…

Why do I possibly understand? Because I have
been an Irish Catholic for almost 60 years, and
almost passed you…you possibly coming into the Church…
I possibly going into the synagogue, to worship as a
Gentile living under the Noahide Law.

I think I’ll pray for both of us, OK?

reen12

 

[Jew_Man_73]

reen12:

Dear Jew_Man_73,

I stopped reading the posts in this thread when I came
to the post where I read your, to me, plaintive cry:

“You have no idea what it does to me to contemplate leaving the Jewish faith, the pain and turmoil it creates inside me.”
quote, Jew_Man_73.

Would you trust me when I say I do understand?
That last night, after I turned off the computer, I
prayed for you, knowing what pain and turmoil
*had *to accompany such a possible decision?
That identity and faith are so much one that
the turmoil must be immense?

That seeng that some Catholics don’t* grasp*
that the Jews see their covenant as salvific
has to be a deeply wounding experience for you?

A possible buffer against being wounded might
be to picture Jesus and his foster-father, Joseph.
winding the phylacteries on their arms each
morning, placing the band around their head,
and praying: Hear, O Israel…

Why do I possibly understand? Because I have
been an Irish Catholic for almost 60 years, and
almost passed you…you possibly coming into the Church…
I possibly going into the synagogue, to worship as a
Gentile living under the Noahide Law.

I think I’ll pray for both of us, OK?

reen12

Thank you very much for your prayers. Yes, you understand exactly how I feel.

 

[Ghosty]

Yes, that fits what I’ve heard about Messianic Judaism. It seems to be an Evangelical Protestant sect that uses underhanded tactics to trick Jews, as if Jews are some kind of secret prize and you win points for the most conversions.

The Catholic Church of course desires the coming in of all Jews, as it does all people, but we’re not going to pretend like we’re just like the Jews. We are FROM the Jews, from Judaism, but the Kingdom of the Messiah is necessarily different from the preparation for the Messiah. The Catholic Church would be the next logical step of growth for Judaism, just like the teachings of Moses were the next logical step from the Covenant of Abraham. Just like those Jews post-Egypt, we honor and love our heritage and consider it continuous, even though we do things somewhat differently now than we did before the Messiah came. After all, the Jews of Moses’ time didn’t even have the Ten Commandments, or the Torah. Can you imagine?! Similarily, we say the Jews of the Second Temple period “didn’t even have the Gospels”. For us it’s a similar step.

As for why things like the Kosher laws were dropped, I personally think it has a lot to do with the reason those laws were in place to begin with. It’s my understanding that the Jews don’t necessarily believe that eating pork is inherently evil, it’s just something that they’re not supposed to do. God said so, and the Jews rightly don’t argue with God. Why would God say something without giving any reason? Well, I think He did give a reason: do not do as the Gentiles do. He didn’t say this because the Gentiles’ diets were evil per se, but because the Hebrews absolutely needed to remain seperate and distinct. How could they be a “light unto the Gentiles” if you couldn’t tell a Jew from an Caananite? God literally built the Jewish people from the ground up, building into their culture the kind of uniqueness and obedience that would be absolutely pivotal in the Messianic promise. God needed to make a foundation of rock to build the Kingdom of the Messiah on, and that rock needed to be very clear and obvious, not to mention rock-solid even about the most seemingly trivial things.

It is by virtue of this loyalty and this self-enforcing distinction based on God’s commands that the Messiah was brought to the world. The Messiah had to come from a distinct, holy people, a dedicated people, a people who had a strong sense of duty and identity. God literally made the Jews that way, and that’s an honor Gentiles can’t even imagine. The whole Tanakh is about God sculpting the Jews and making them known to the world, and Catholics believe that this was so that when the Messiah came he would not be a shot in the darkness, but a light shining from a mountain that all humans could recognize.

From the Church’s perspective, once the Messiah had come, and the Covenant was universalized, these aspects of Judaism became spiritually superfluous, though not necessarily culturally superfluous. Their greater purpose of sculpting the Jews as a loyal and unique people had been fulfilled, and so they were relaxed for those who could no longer bear the burden. Jews were certainly still allowed to keep things for their cultural value, however, as were the Gentiles. It only became a problem when some Jews insisted that these things still held spiritual weight, and were therefore obligatory for all Christians, and this is what Peter and Paul rallied against.