What is Church's official position on the Jews?

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Ghosty:
Yes, that fits what I’ve heard about Messianic Judaism. It seems to be an Evangelical Protestant sect that uses underhanded tactics to trick Jews, as if Jews are some kind of secret prize and you win points for the most conversions.

The Catholic Church of course desires the coming in of all Jews, as it does all people, but we’re not going to pretend like we’re just like the Jews. We are FROM the Jews, from Judaism, but the Kingdom of the Messiah is necessarily different from the preparation for the Messiah. The Catholic Church would be the next logical step of growth for Judaism, just like the teachings of Moses were the next logical step from the Covenant of Abraham. Just like those Jews post-Egypt, we honor and love our heritage and consider it continuous, even though we do things somewhat differently now than we did before the Messiah came. After all, the Jews of Moses’ time didn’t even have the Ten Commandments, or the Torah. Can you imagine?! Similarily, we say the Jews of the Second Temple period “didn’t even have the Gospels”. For us it’s a similar step.

As for why things like the Kosher laws were dropped, I personally think it has a lot to do with the reason those laws were in place to begin with. It’s my understanding that the Jews don’t necessarily believe that eating pork is inherently evil, it’s just something that they’re not supposed to do. God said so, and the Jews rightly don’t argue with God. Why would God say something without giving any reason? Well, I think He did give a reason: do not do as the Gentiles do. He didn’t say this because the Gentiles’ diets were evil per se, but because the Hebrews absolutely needed to remain seperate and distinct. How could they be a “light unto the Gentiles” if you couldn’t tell a Jew from an Caananite? God literally built the Jewish people from the ground up, building into their culture the kind of uniqueness and obedience that would be absolutely pivotal in the Messianic promise. God needed to make a foundation of rock to build the Kingdom of the Messiah on, and that rock needed to be very clear and obvious, not to mention rock-solid even about the most seemingly trivial things.

It is by virtue of this loyalty and this self-enforcing distinction based on God’s commands that the Messiah was brought to the world. The Messiah had to come from a distinct, holy people, a dedicated people, a people who had a strong sense of duty and identity. God literally made the Jews that way, and that’s an honor Gentiles can’t even imagine. The whole Tanakh is about God sculpting the Jews and making them known to the world, and Catholics believe that this was so that when the Messiah came he would not be a shot in the darkness, but a light shining from a mountain that all humans could recognize.

From the Church’s perspective, once the Messiah had come, and the Covenant was universalized, these aspects of Judaism became spiritually superfluous, though not necessarily culturally superfluous. Their greater purpose of sculpting the Jews as a loyal and unique people had been fulfilled, and so they were relaxed for those who could no longer bear the burden. Jews were certainly still allowed to keep things for their cultural value, however, as were the Gentiles. It only became a problem when some Jews insisted that these things still held spiritual weight, and were therefore obligatory for all Christians, and this is what Peter and Paul rallied against.
Yes, you’ve definitely heard correctly about Messianic Judaism. Messianic Jews claim they are restoring the church as it was meant to be, before it was corrupted. They don’t realize they’re restoring something that never existed. And I find it ludicrous that they treat us Jews as if we’re some sort of prize (It’s almost like they win a free toaster oven for every Jew they convert, or something), considering most of them aren’t even Jewish. Most Messianic Jews I’ve known grew up Protestant, without an ounce of Jewish blood in them. In mesainic Judaism, actual jews are rare, and when one does convert, he/she is a token Jew at best. It’s almost as if the members of the synagogue are saying “Look! We have a Jew!” I have much more respect for the Catholic Church (as it is today) than I do for Messianic Judaism.
Thank you for the insights about the Catholic view of Jews and the dietary laws. You’re absolutely right, Jews folloow the dietary laws simply because G-d said so. It’s that simple. I’ve certainly never read a concrete reason in the Torah as to why G-d gave the laws. Your statement about Catholicism being the next logical step from Judaism intrigues me. I have noticed some similarities between Catholic liturgy and Jewish liturgy.
 
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Jew_Man_73:
This might be a stupid question, but how can I know that Jesus is really the Messiah?
It may come through faith, but surely will at the end of time, you (and I) will see him face to face.
 
Dear Jew_Man_73,

"Thank you, this helps. I remember reading about Peter refusing to eat with the Gentiles and give up the dietary laws. I;m having trouble understanding why G-d got rid of them, though. Any insights?"quote Jew_Man_73

I think Ghosty was correct when he mentioned the
idea of separate and distinct. {BTW, Ghosty,
I think you’re doing a grand job of clarifying
points.}


When Jesus told the apostles to go out to
“all nations”, there is the key, I think, for why
circumcision and dietary laws were set aside.
There was to *be *no distinction between Jew
and Greek…[and, by extension, the French,
Irish, English…etc.]

I think that you have the patience of a saint and
the tenacity of a bulldog, Jew_Man_73.🙂

reen12
 
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CARose:
Well, it depends on who you ask.

Ask a Reformed Jew, and I don’t recall the answer.

Ask an Orthodox or Conservative Jew and they’ll assure you the law hasn’t changed.

Ask a Catholic and it’s because Peter had a dream, 3 times, in which he was told by God that all that he had made was good, and hence good to eat. Now, why exactly God chose to make the change, I’ll have to make a personal guess. I only asked when, not why when I was curious.

Why? I would have to say it ties into the fact that the extra laws handed down by God to Moses after the first tablets were broken were removed once Christ came to fulfill the Covenant. So the punishments that were handed down each time a covenant was broken were removed. This would tie in well with no longer requiring circumcision, which if you think about it being imposed on an elderly man, wasn’t a painless, simple way of signifying union with God.

CARose

CARose
Thank you. Reform Judaism basically leaves it up to the individual to decide what dietary laws, if any, to follow.
 
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Jew_Man_73:
It’s also important to remember that Jews believe that our covenant is salvatory. Most Jews believe that the Messiah will be a mortal man who will be a great political leader. It’s commonly believed that he will free the Jewish people from the threat of their enemies and show the world that Judaism is the only true religion, and people all over the world will take up the Jewish faith.
I’ve just recently started reading the New Testament and exploring the Catholic faith, so I’m not an expert on Christianity. However, I have a hard time with a Christian of any branch saying that a Jew is not saved. Most Jews I know love G-d and honor Him alot more than most Christians I’ve encountered. And we are not ignorant, either.
I don’t say these things to be argumentative, just please be careful how you express yourselves.
Mohammed fits your description doesn’t he? In any case, is it not more accurate to say that the race has been saved rather than individuals? God knows how many individual Jews have passed into the populations that surround them. Most of the people of Spain have Jewish ancestors.
 
Dear RobbyS,

“Mohammed fits your description doesn’t he?”
quote, RobbyS

Given my own interest in Judaism, will you
please excuse me for addressing a question that you
posed to another poster?

Judaism pre-dates Mohammed by, I think,
3600 years or so. The prophets in the Hebrew
Scriptures specifically identified the lineage
from which would come Messiah.

Best,
reen12
 
Dear CARose,

Depending on what day of the week, or time of
day one speaks with me, I may feel like an
evangelical, or a Lutheran, or very much drawn
to Judaism, and then there is, of course, my
own Irish Catholicism. * It all has to do with*
a problem with “identity” that is psychological
in nature, and has little to do with spiritual

*belief. * Bear with me, OK, if you catch me on
another thread sounding like a Lutheran.
The only “upside” to all of this is that at least…
I’m well-read!🙂

Best,
reen12
 
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reen12:
Dear RobbyS,

“Mohammed fits your description doesn’t he?”
quote, RobbyS

Given my own interest in Judaism, will you
please excuse me for addressing a question that you
posed to another poster?

Judaism pre-dates Mohammed by, I think,
3600 years or so. The prophets in the Hebrew
Scriptures specifically identified the lineage
from which would come Messiah.

Best,
reen12
Mohammed claims to be a descendent of Abraham, through Ismael. He himself claims to be a prophet, the final prophet in a line that begins with Adam. But in his career, he behaves much as (some) Jews expected the Messiah to behave, which was as a political and military leader and with the great success that the Jews expected of the Messiah. Mohammed himself did not think of himself as messiah.
 
Dear RobbyS,

The New Testament makes a great deal of the
lineage of Jesus. He was “of the house of David.”
So, it is of no import that Mohammed was
descended from Abraham. He was not descended
in the Davidic line.

Best,
reen12
 
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RobbyS:
Mohammed fits your description doesn’t he? In any case, is it not more accurate to say that the race has been saved rather than individuals? God knows how many individual Jews have passed into the populations that surround them. Most of the people of Spain have Jewish ancestors.
No, Mohammed definitely does not fit this description. In what way did he ever free the Jewish people from the threat of thier enemies and convince the world to follow Judaism? :confused: Not in any way does he fit the description of the Jewish Messiah, which is plainly clear. Yes, there are Jews all over the world. That’s common knowledge.
 
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RobbyS:
Mohammed claims to be a descendent of Abraham, through Ismael. He himself claims to be a prophet, the final prophet in a line that begins with Adam. But in his career, he behaves much as (some) Jews expected the Messiah to behave, which was as a political and military leader and with the great success that the Jews expected of the Messiah. Mohammed himself did not think of himself as messiah.
Not to repeat my last post, but Mohammed did nothing for the Jews. He founded a new religion that is not Judaism. He certainly did not free the Jews from the threat of their enemies, which anyone can plainly see by watching the evening news. It’s apparent that he defninitely was not the Messiah. He also was not of the line of David, which the TANAKH states is a requirement for the Messiah.
 
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reen12:
Dear RobbyS,

“Mohammed fits your description doesn’t he?”
quote, RobbyS

Given my own interest in Judaism, will you
please excuse me for addressing a question that you
posed to another poster?

Judaism pre-dates Mohammed by, I think,
3600 years or so. The prophets in the Hebrew
Scriptures specifically identified the lineage
from which would come Messiah.

Best,
reen12
Thank you, reen12. You’re absolutely correct! 😃
 
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reen12:
Dear RobbyS,

The New Testament makes a great deal of the
lineage of Jesus. He was “of the house of David.”
So, it is of no import that Mohammed was
descended from Abraham. He was not descended
in the Davidic line.

Best,
reen12
Thanks again, reen12! Another fine job! :clapping:
 
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