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JLFuller
Guest
Come on Paul. Please read the entire thread. This was addressed earlier.
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hosemonkey
Guest
Because to excommunicate someone, the church would have to know. Somebody would have to squeal. What if the “bishop” “prayerfully” gave permission? Is he busted too?
In the Catholic Church, someone who commits or supports or facilitates abortion is excommunicated " Latae Sententiae."
The phrase “latae sententiae” means a judgment or sentence which has already been brought, in other words, a sentence or judgment which does not need a future additional judgment from someone in authority; it refers to a type of excommunication which is automatic. Such a sentence of excommunication is incurred “by the very commission of the offense,” (CCC 2272) and does not require the future particular judgment of a case by competent authority.
The Church regards abortion as a sin so grave as to warrant this penalty. No waffling there.
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Robert_in_SD
Guest
So, polygamy was tailored to the time before Utah wanted to be admitted to the union, but when the Church decided its best interests lay with statehood, polygammy ceased as doctrine necessary for eternal progression, and became improper. Does this mean that the fundamental definition of marriage (one man/one woman) changed in the late 1800s? If so, what’s preventing your Prophet (along with the consent of the Quarum, et al.) from re-instituting plural marriage as necessary for salvation and redefining marriage to encompass more than one heterosexual pair? And what is preventing the Prophet, et al., from redefining marriage to include homosexual marriage 100 years from now, when (God help us) the U.S. Constitution is amended to protect gay “marriage” as a “fundamental right?” It seems your Church has a history of redefining “truth” so that it is - in your own words - “tailored to the times and conditions.” I don’t think that’s what Jesus had in mind when He spoke of the Spirit coming to guide the Apostles into all the truth. (Jn. 16:13)
That doctrine has been inconsistent, and subject to revision with grave consequences to the Church - e.g. changes concerning polygammy resulted in the splintering off of the FLDS. So, there are persons identifying themselves a the “real” mormon Church who reject the “tailored” doctrines of the LDS. And those who are acting from a sincere conscience probably believe that the LDS Church leadership betrayed the truth and taught a falsehood when it rejected plural marriage for political expediency.
Peace,
-Robert
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JLFuller
Guest
Robert
Go back and read what I presented earlier in this thread. I think that would be helpful in understanding how it works, assuming you really want to know.
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dianaiad
Guest
I don’t see anything in the church position on abortion about it being OK if the life of the child wouldn’t be worth living.
In fact, when it is a matter of the health of the child, it is a matter of whether there could possibly be any life after birth, at all. As in; there is no chance that the child would survive being separated from Mom. At all–such as when there is no brain, for instance, or…no liver or lungs–or any chance at all of life beyond losing Mom’s life support system.
As I have already mentioned, I would not abort, or encourage my daughters to abort, as a result of rape. On the other hand, if she decides that she simply cannot carry the child of rape to term, and has discussed the matter with her Bishop and with the Lord; has prayed about it and received confirmation that abortion is the right choice for her in that case, then I will support her–and count that death on the head of the rapist. the same goes for incest, which is USUALLY also rape.
As to making a choice between losing the child…or losing my daughter AND the child? How much sense does it make to lose two when one is lost already? It is tragedy enough that the child will die either way.
Stephen168
New member
If they are conceived from rape or incest then their life is not worth living according to the Mormon Church.
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LAMBOFGODGIRLY
Guest
I do not read things that I know are not written by Christians! This man doesn’t even believe in the Resurrection! Why are you reading his stuff in the first place?
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twopekinguys
Guest
Recently,(within the past couple of years) in our area, there was a young couple expecting their first child. During the pregnancy, they found out that the baby was anacephalic (sp). A hereditary defect resulting in the partial to complete absence of a brain and spinal cord. It is fatal.
They found this out relatively early during the pregnancy, and chose to carry the baby to full term if possible. Indeed the baby did go full term, and was delivered, only to survive for a short while outside of the womb. The baby died in the arms of his parents surrounded by other loving members of the family.
How many people would have aborted this baby? How wonderful those parents chose to bring the child into the world and love him for as long as they could, and then give him back to the Lord.
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Jash
Guest
Interesting, I have never heard of an excommunication for an abortion in the LDS church. Nor is there ever an “automatic” excommunication that I know of. Is excommunication from the Catholic church permanent or can the person repent and return?
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Robert_in_SD
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Dear JL;
I read every post on this thread before I posted my first response. So I don’t think I need to go back and do it again. You were the one who stated that LDS doctrine is tailored and adapted to the times. I cited polygamy as an example where there was an absolute reversal of doctrine. Ask any FLDS member and they will say that eternal progression and polygamy are absolutely intertwined, and that they are called by God to live as they do, in plural marriage. That was the position of Joseph Smith, and the original founding members of your LDS Church… but that doctrine and set of teachings was expressly rejected when the leaders of the LDS Church recognized that statehood in the Union was dependent upon rejection of the practice… and so it goes. I wonder what will happen if the U.S. government decides that state funds will be withheld from any state that does not recognize same-sex marriage? Will the LDS Church split again??? It would seem that what you described… “tailoring” doctrine to the time and circumstance would make such an event at least possible.
If I’m getting this wrong, please tell me how I’m misreading what you’ve stated. Because it seems to me that you’re implying that there’s something more than the mere development of doctrine that is sanctioned by the LDS hierarchy. That the LDS “Prophet” acting with the Quarum has the inate right, given by God, to change the rules to fit the times… It’s not about tying a rule to past doctrine, because it’s clear the rules have changed completely in the past, with no attempt to tie the change to prior doctrine. If you disagree, then please give me your explanation for the abrupt about-face on the matter of polygamy. And believe me, I do want to know the Truth. I’m not just hanking your chain here. I really want to know how you work your way through it logically.
Peace,
-Robert
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StevieD
Guest
JS was certainly not the only person to foresee the Civil War, however he did foresee several things that did not happen at all. He was also standing for the presidency at the time of his death (surely a waste of his precious time and a failure of foresight). He was also certainly not alone in warning of the abuse of alcohol or tobacco and even tea (though he did not always follow his own advice). Did/do we really need a modern prophet, seer and revelator to tell us what any of the 33,000 Protestant denominational leaders are also probably saying. Joseph claimed to communicate directly with God and to have settled every Christian controversy but Mr Monson just provides pious platitudes - does he keep all those conversations with God behind the curtain to himself?
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LAMBOFGODGIRLY
Guest
In the U.S. the bishops have given priests permission to lift the excommunication when they give absolution for the sin of abortion. So all one needs to do is go to Confession.
Fr. Vincent Serpa, O.P.
http://forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?t=167650
To be excommunicated is to remain a Catholic, but a Catholic for whom active participation in the sacramental life of the Church is denied until such time as the person repents and receives absolution. If the person is a priest he may not celebrate the sacraments or preach or publicly represent the Church in any way. (Canon 1331)
Fr. Vincent Serpa, O.P.
http://forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?t=61771
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Robert_in_SD
Guest
Whoa! Hold on there LoGgirly.
My understanding is that the LDS Church does hold to the belief in Jesus’ Resurrection. If there are any participating LDS members who don’t accept it, or believe that acceptance of the Resurrection is not essential to your denomination’s teachings, I’d like to hear your take on it.
For that matter, I’d like to hear the LDS position on the Resurrection, whatever it may be. If one of you LDS members is kind enough to start another thread giving your belief concerning the Resurrection, would you please PM me so I could join in?
Peace,
-Robert
P.S. - My brother is a member of the LDS faith. He’s a good man. And I know that the LDS Church does a lot of good to be proud over - especially concerning the recent Prop. 8 Amendment in California. So, please believe me I’m not looking to smear LDS persons individually. And to the extent we can join together to work for social justice on matters like marriage and abortion, I’m all for it. However, it would be wrong to overlook the significant and troublesome differences of opinion regarding what we believe concerning Jesus Christ and His Church. And I’m not inclined to just “give a pass” to LDS members who state conclusions regarding doctrinal issues that are inconsistent with my (admittedly limited) experience with your religion.
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Jerusha
Guest
Re excommunication— haven’t you read the troubles Pope Benedict is having with that nutcase Bishop Williamson? He still hasn’t retracted his Holocaust denial. He could be re-excommunicated, if he hasn’t alrady been.
Of course if the person repents they can return.
Of course if the person repents they can return.
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PaulDupre
Guest
JLFuller said that the Church would excommunicate a member who had an abortion for mere convenience.
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PaulDupre
Guest
I was recalling the part of the LDS Church abortion policy that states that abortion is permissible if the child would not live very long after birth. IOW, that short life is not worth living, so go ahead and abort.
But as another poster pointed out, the LDS church also seems to think that a life begun through rape or incest is also not worth (or not worthy of) living.
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PaulDupre
Guest
Obviously not addressed to my satisfaction.
And stop impuning our motives and accusing us of not reading the thread. It is rude and smacks of desperation.
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hosemonkey
Guest
Interesting that you have not. Probably because the abortion decision is arrived at “prayerfully” and with the approval of the “bishop.” All the more heinous. The “prayerful” execution of the innocent.
Excommunication in the Catholic Church is never imposed as punishment but instead as a serious invitation to repentance. Upon serious reflection and purpose of amendment and confession, the excommunication is lifted and the pardoned offender is once again welcomed into the fellowship of Christ. Having said that, some extremely serious offences require the absolution of the Bishop or even the Holy Father, but abortion is not one of them.
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LAMBOFGODGIRLY
Guest
I was talking about the book JL told me to read. The book is written by a man who does not believe in the resurrection of Christ. I was telling him that I couldn’t believe he was even reading the book because the man is not even Christian. Unless LDS do not believe in the resurrection either?Whoa! Hold on there LoGgirly.
My understanding is that the LDS Church does hold to the belief in Jesus’ Resurrection. If there are any participating LDS members who don’t accept it, or believe that acceptance of the Resurrection is not essential to your denomination’s teachings, I’d like to hear your take on it.
For that matter, I’d like to hear the LDS position on the Resurrection, whatever it may be. If one of you LDS members is kind enough to start another thread giving your belief concerning the Resurrection, would you please PM me so I could join in?
Peace,
-Robert
P.S. - My brother is a member of the LDS faith. He’s a good man. And I know that the LDS Church does a lot of good to be proud over - especially concerning the recent Prop. 8 Amendment in California. So, please believe me I’m not looking to smear LDS persons individually. And to the extent we can join together to work for social justice on matters like marriage and abortion, I’m all for it. However, it would be wrong to overlook the significant and troublesome differences of opinion regarding what we believe concerning Jesus Christ and His Church. And I’m not inclined to just “give a pass” to LDS members who state conclusions regarding doctrinal issues that are inconsistent with my (admittedly limited) experience with your religion.
***"The resurrection of the body is an essential Christian doctrine, as the apostle Paul declares: “*f the dead are not raised, then Christ has not been raised. If Christ has not been raised, your faith is futile and you are still in your sins. Then those also who have fallen asleep in Christ have perished” (1 Cor. 15:13–18).
Because, as Paul tells us, the Christian faith cannot exist without this doctrine, it has been infallibly defined by the Church. It is included in the three infallible professions of faith—the Apostles’ Creed, the Nicene Creed, and the Athanasian Creed—and has been solemnly, infallibly taught by ecumenical councils. "***
catholic.com/library/Resurrection_of_the_Body.asp
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