What is exactly and precisely "invincible ignorance"?

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blackforest said:
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Maximus1:
I have to say this idea of limited salvation is one I am particularly troubled by for many reasons. Otherwise I would likely leave you to your ideas.
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These aren’t just “my ideas.” They are and have been hotly debated among theologians within the Catholic Church itself. My own priest would disagree with your position. So there’s that.

I’ll get into this more when I have more time. Or maybe not. We should all take lay opinions on CAF, including my own, with a grain of Morton salt.
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That’s why one should either quote their sources … copiously or ask one to quote their sources for the views they express.
 
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It goes much deeper than simply citing sources. Our clergy members have read up more than we have and are trained to evaluate and interpret these sources. I’ll consider carefully what lay people post but ultimately look to clergy and Church hierarchy, (among whom there still remains some level of disagreement).
 
Nahar said:
Where is a contradiction here? I cannot accept the concept that one can only "earn" salvation through faith and works. Without works, faith is and empty concept. Without faith, the works are still valid. A loaf of bread still has the same nutritional value to a hungry person, regardless of my beliefs. (Of course I am aware that no one can “earn” salvation on her own.)
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You didn’t answer the question from before, what belief system do you follow?
 
blackforest said:
It goes much deeper than simply citing sources. Our clergy members have read up more than we have and are trained to evaluate and interpret these sources. I’ll consider carefully what lay people post but ultimately look to clergy and Church hierarchy, (among whom there still remains some level of disagreement).
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I forgot to add, when quoting sources, that they are "properly referenced"

i.e. post links, or give books (Title, page number etc), and so on.

NOT

from something someone hears from someone else.
 
Nahar said:
Where is a contradiction here? I cannot accept the concept that one can only “earn” salvation through faith and works . Without works, faith is and empty concept. Without faith, the works are still valid. A loaf of bread still has the same nutritional value to a hungry person, regardless of my beliefs. (Of course I am aware that no one can “earn” salvation on her own.)
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Good works have no merit if you are in a state of mortal sin.
If you die in a state of mortal sin it does not matter how many good works you have done on earth you will still go to Hell.
 
MasterHaster said:
Does it seem logical or moral that someone who is a good Christian their whole life, living a holy and altruistic life, but in their final hours commits a mortal sin and dies before they can confess ---- this person is sent to eternal punishment? Hitler who theoretically becomes a believer on his deathbed is rewarded with eternal life?
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A mortal sin cannot be committed by accident. It is a deliberate act and the sinner knows that by committing it they are separating themselves from God and that if they die unrepentant they go to Hell.
God does not send anyone to Hell. Everyone who goes to Hell has freely chosen to do so by dying in a state of mortal sin.
To answer the second question yes a person who has been terrible their entire lives but SINCERELY repents on their deathbed would be saved.
I see no problems here.
 
I am more convinced each day, that many Catholics dismiss Scripture based on the assumption that no one but Church heirarchy can truly know what any passage may mean.

So the result is to appeal to various Church documents which may or may not be directly related to the issue. And/or take one priest’s opinion on the matter over another priest’s.

Instead, faith compels me to search Scriptures primarily, and listen to what our Father is revealing to us, while keeping my conscience formed through Church affirmations of the faith throughout history.

In my faith journey, I have witnessed alot of situations when clergy have contradicted one another! And when clergy has flat out contradicted the Catholic faith.

But there is a Spirit that is crafty and manipulative. It’s the “deep things of Satan”. One who can twist any Teaching of Jesus to fit what is opposed to the heart of the law of Christ. And unfortunately clergy is not immune to this spirit.

Is this cause to be proud and dismiss clergy and Church Teaching? By no means. It is all the more important to “watch and pray”. Dont put aside the Holy Spirit on the pretence that clergy knows best. Be humble and search whether an advice or claim by ANYONE aligns with Scripture and Church Teaching, IF we are not convinced in conscience or believe the Holy Spirit is saying something different.
 
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MasterHaster said:
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thistle:
If you die in a state of mortal sin it does not matter how many good works you have done on earth you will still go to Hell.
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Does it seem logical or moral that someone who is a good Christian their whole life, living a holy and altruistic life, but in their final hours commits a mortal sin and dies before they can confess ---- this person is sent to eternal punishment? Hitler who theoretically becomes a believer on his deathbed is rewarded with eternal life?
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The Church Teaches that a sin can be forgiven before Sacramental Absolution. If the sinner repents in heart, and turns back to God.

God is just.
 
MasterHaster said:
You really want to state this as Catholic doctrine? That is exactly what God does at Judgement according to the Bible and Church teaching. Your explanation of people “choosing” to go to hell doesn’t change that fact.
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You are wrong. They go to Hell because they choose to. God does NOT send anyone to Hell.
 
Good works do not come from man. Man apart from God is just an animal. But man has known God from the beginning. So we cannot return to the ignorance of an animal. We ate from the Tree of Knowledge.

We are born into a state of separation from God. But also born into a life which our creator is seeking and beckoning for us to turn from doubt and evil. One where He, Himself, became one of us, so that we can know His love and will to forgive and guide us through doubt and evil.

First we need to seek Him and believe Him. Then receive His Spirit to guide our hearts to do what is good.
 
So, the ability to comprehend the message doesn’t come into play then? It’s solely based on hearing the message? Not grasping the full meaning of the message?

Apologies if this has already been actresses as I’d only noticed this thread & read a little of it at the beginning…
 
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If the heart is not seeking to know the full meaning, it will dismiss and turn away from the life of God.

Matthew 13
“Hear then the parable of the sower. When any one hears the word of the kingdom and does not understand it, the evil one comes and snatches away what is sown in his heart; this is what was sown along the path.

Luke 8
Now the parable is this: The seed is the word of God. The ones along the path are those who have heard; then the devil comes and takes away the word from their hearts, that they may not believe and be saved.

THIS IS NOT TALKING ABOUT CHURCH TEACHING (in general), BUT THE WORD OF GOD, OR THE GOSPEL. VERY IMPORTANT DISTINCTION.
 
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thistle said:
You are like a parrot keeping repeating the same thing over and over. In case you hadn’t realised it these are Catholic forums about faith!!
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I do realize it. My question is: “do you have any reason to have that faith?” Because faith can be several kinds: “reasonably established belief, for which there is no sufficient evidence” and “blind faith”.
 
kainosktisis said:
So, the ability to comprehend the message doesn’t come into play then? It’s solely based on hearing the message? Not grasping the full meaning of the message?

Apologies if this has already been actresses as I’d only noticed this thread & read a little of it at the beginning…
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Yes, that is the question.
 
Crusader13 said:
The contraction relates to one’s desire to believe in something based on faith and what God has shown them. You’re saying that the evidence is lacking, therefore you don’t believe in what’s been handed down.
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That is almost exactly what I am saying. I do not believe that there was anything “handed down” - because I don’t see any evidence for it. God has not “shown” anything to me. Other people assert that God gave them sufficient evidence, but why should I accept the testimony of others?
Crusader13 said:
However, you still expect to be given the gift of said salvation, even though you don’t believe in it.
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What is wrong with that? That is the reasonable expectation based upon “love” and “justice”. Love is supposed to be acting in the best interest of another. Justice is to give everyone his due. And I see no problem with disbelieving something for which there is no sufficient evidence. That is not the lack of faith… it is the lack of blind faith.

I hope you will not resort to the old and tired canard: “Who are you to demand a personal sign from God? How dare you to demand that God be at your beck and call?” Because that is usually what I get as a reply. 🙂 (Sometimes they even add insult to injury and say: “you, dirty and despicable sinner”)
 
Ammi said:
So the result is to appeal to various Church documents which may or may not be directly related to the issue. And/or take one priest’s opinion on the matter over another priest’s.

Instead, faith compels me to search Scriptures primarily, and listen to what our Father is revealing to us, while keeping my conscience formed through Church affirmations of the faith throughout history.
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Knowing that we’re not a sola scriptura faith, I think it would be intellectually obvious to own our biases - and confirmation biases (no pun intended) - lest we succumb completely to that Protestant phenomenon of private interpretation.
Ammi said:
In my faith journey, I have witnessed alot of situations when clergy have contradicted one another! And when clergy has flat out contradicted the Catholic faith.
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Sure. We just have to discern between them actually contradicting our faith and . . . just not liking what they have to say and calling it a contradiction. 🙂 When there’s disagreement among priests and bishops in good standing with the Church, we need to be really, really careful before fanning flames and going all Lifesite on them.
 
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