What is Hell?

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Anna_Scott said:
Janet,

If you are basing your beliefs on Scripture (correct me, if you are not); why would you continue in a belief that has no Biblical basis? I ask this in the most charitable way.

Maybe you are following the wrong people. The writings of Jonathan Edwards are offensive on so many levels. It is easy to be seduced by charismatic writers and orators. I’ve lived through that myself.

Even your signature contains a quote from Jonathan Edwards about Hell. Is that your inspiration?

Please pray about this. 🤷

Anna
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Jonathan Edwards in one of the most gifted theologians of all of Christianity. Anna, you are one confused Christian.
 
NotTooSmart said:
Wasn’t Jonathan Edwards more the evangelist than theologian?
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NotTooSmart: You can find his writings online. Just do a search with his name.

Here is a quote about Hell:

Jonathan Edwards (Dated April, 1739)

The Eternity of Hell’s Torments
Subject: The misery of the wicked in hell will be absolutely eternal.

Fourth,* the sight of hell torments will exalt the happiness of the saints forever. It will not only make them more sensible of the greatness and freeness of the grace of God in their happiness, but it will really make their happiness the greater, as it will make them more sensible of their own happiness. It will give them a more lively relish of it: it will make them prize it more. When they see others, who were of the same nature and born under the same circumstances, plunged in such misery, and they so distinguished, O it will make them sensible how happy they are. A sense of the opposite misery, in all cases, greatly increases the relish of any joy or pleasure.
The sight of the wonderful power, the great and dreadful majesty, and awful justice and holiness of God, manifested in the eternal punishment of ungodly men, will make them prize his favor and love vastly the more. And they will be so much the more happy in the enjoyment of it.

Link: biblebb.com/files/edwards/eternity.htm

What do other forum members think of Jonathan Edwards’ claim, “the sight of hell torments will exalt the happiness of the saints forever”?

Is burning heretics next?
 
Anna_Scott said:
NotTooSmart: You can find his writings online. Just do a search with his name.

Here is a quote about Hell:

Jonathan Edwards (Dated April, 1739)

The Eternity of Hell’s Torments
Subject: The misery of the wicked in hell will be absolutely eternal.

Fourth,** the sight of hell torments will exalt the happiness of the saints forever. It will not only make them more sensible of the greatness and freeness of the grace of God in their happiness, but it will really make their happiness the greater, as it will make them more sensible of their own happiness. It will give them a more lively relish of it: it will make them prize it more. When they see others, who were of the same nature and born under the same circumstances, plunged in such misery, and they so distinguished, O it will make them sensible how happy they are. A sense of the opposite misery, in all cases, greatly increases the relish of any joy or pleasure.
**
The sight of the wonderful power, the great and dreadful majesty, and awful justice and holiness of God, manifested in the eternal punishment of ungodly men, will make them prize his favor and love vastly the more. And they will be so much the more happy in the enjoyment of it.

Link: biblebb.com/files/edwards/eternity.htm
Click to expand...
Here’s a better source for the great Evangelist and theologian from the 1st Great Awakening.

monergism.com/directory/search.php?action=search_links_simple&search_kind=and&phrase=Jonathan+Edwards&B1.x=27&B1.y=11
 
When you go to heaven you get a new body because this one is gone?
Douse god make people new bodies so they will be able to burn in hell? Are the bodies burn proof or douse he keep giving new bodies to those in hell?

Why did Jesus die? Could god not forgive us without death?

You make it sound like Jesus death was to give us a heart for a open heart transplant operation.
But the bible story said Jesus got tortured on the cross to please god or (to make the payment for man’s sins).
god did not like sin he was not pleased and unable to forgive. So to make him happy so he will forgive we had to kill Jesus his son.
Now god will find it in his heart not to torture us for all eternity.
How is this logical?
#1 god makes the rules
#2 god made sin evil and the devil
#3 god made the tree for Adam to eat from
#4 god maid hell just to torture his creations (he could just make them vanish)
 
2nd_Adam said:
He was both:

monergism.com/directory/search.php?action=search_links_simple&search_kind=and&phrase=Jonathan+Edwards&B1.x=27&B1.y=11
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OK.

He was sort of like Wesley then.

Now I prefer Wesley myself, but I would given my background.

But anyway I guess I attribute that cited quote to the evangelist gifting within Edwards. Evangelists tend to overreach and put foot in mouth sometime if not very careful.

I don’t think the quote is all that well thought out myself.

But I am sort of curious about the history of Christian teaching on hell. I read a website that claimed the fire-and-brimstone version of hell started in the 300s. About the same time that the Immaculate Conception and Assumption of Mary developed.

Of course the Scripture that is the counterargument here is Luke 16:19-31. This certainly sounds like a traditional hellfire-and-brimstone type of hell.

So the question in my mind is where do you start and then work backwards from. If your starting point is Luke 16:19-31 (which would be understandable) you might reach one conclusion. If your starting point is mine (the character of God as revealed in Scripture), you might reach different conclusions.
 
What is Hell in the Old Testament?

When I first read the Old Testament all the way through, I realized I had not read anything that threatened eternal torment of the lost? Genesis reveals the punishment of Adam and Eve’s disobedience to God, is “death.”

Genesis Chapter 2:17: but of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil you shall not eat, for in the day that you eat of it you shall surely die."

Genesis Chapter 3:19: By the sweat of your face you shall eat bread, till you return to the ground, for out of it you were taken; for you are dust, and to dust you shall return."

Consider Sodom and Gomorrah:

Genesis Chapter 19: 23 By the time Lot reached Zoar, the sun had risen over the land. 24 Then the LORD rained down burning sulfur on Sodom and Gomorrah—from the LORD out of the heavens.

25 Thus he overthrew those cities and the entire plain, including all those living in the cities—and also the vegetation in the land. 26 But Lot’s wife looked back, and she became a pillar of salt.

27 Early the next morning Abraham got up and returned to the place where he had stood before the LORD. 28 He looked down toward Sodom and Gomorrah, toward all the land of the plain, and he saw dense smoke rising from the land, like smoke from a furnace.

29 So when God destroyed the cities of the plain, he remembered Abraham, and he brought Lot out of the catastrophe that overthrew the cities where Lot had lived.
Sodom and Gomorrah were completely destroyed.

Jude Chapter 7: In a similar way, Sodom and Gomorrah and the surrounding towns gave themselves up to sexual immorality and perversion. They serve as an example of those who suffer the punishment of eternal fire.

The fires of Sodom and Gomorrah burned, until all was consumed. If they are to serve as an example of those who suffer the punishment of eternal fire; then “Eternal fire” must not be synonymous with “eternal torment.”

The fires are not still burning today, nor will they be burning for all eternity. It seems clear that eternal fire is not equivalent to eternal torment.

Malachi Chapter 4:
1 “Surely the day is coming; it will burn like a furnace. All the arrogant and every evildoer will be stubble, and that day that is coming will set them on fire,” says the LORD Almighty. “Not a root or a branch will be left to them. 2 But for you who revere my name, the sun of righteousness will rise with healing in its wings. And you will go out and leap like calves released from the stall. 3 Then you will trample down the wicked; they will be ashes under the soles of your feet on the day when I do these things,” says the LORD Almighty.

Malachi paints a very clear picture of destruction by fire, the annihilation of the wicked, who will be “stubble,” and who will be “ashes under the soles of your feet.” This is death/eternal destruction/annihilation.

Ezekiel Chapter 18: 4 Behold, all souls are mine; the soul of the father as well as the soul of the son is mine: the soul who sins shall die.

Ezekiel Chapter 18: 20 The soul who sins shall die. The son shall not suffer for the iniquity of the father, nor the father suffer for the iniquity of the son. The righteousness of the righteous shall be upon himself, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon himself.

We all die a physical death. If the “soul who sins shall die”; this must be death of the soul.

Psalm Chapter 37: 20 But the wicked will perish: The LORD’s enemies will be like the beauty of the fields, they will vanish—vanish like smoke.

Psalms tell us, “the wicked will perish” and “vanish like smoke.”

Ecclesiastes Chapter 9:
5 For the living know that they will die,
but the dead know nothing;
they have no further reward,
and even the memory of them is forgotten.

6 Their love, their hate
and their jealousy have long since vanished;
never again will they have a part
in anything that happens under the sun.

7 Go, eat your food with gladness, and drink your wine with a joyful heart, for it is now that God favors what you do. 8 Always be clothed in white, and always anoint your head with oil. 9 Enjoy life with your wife, whom you love, all the days of this meaningless life that God has given you under the sun— all your meaningless days. For this is your lot in life and in your toilsome labor under the sun. **10 Whatever your hand finds to do, do it with all your might, for in the grave, [c] where you are going, there is neither working nor planning nor knowledge nor wisdom. **
Footnotes: (c) Ecclesiastes 9:10 Hebrew Sheol

**Ecclesiastes 12:7: ** and the dust returns to the ground it came from, and the spirit returns to God who gave it.

Psalm 88:
A song. A psalm of the Sons of Korah. For the director of music. According to mahalath leannoth. A maskil of Heman the Ezrahite.

1 O LORD, the God who saves me,
day and night I cry out before you.

2 May my prayer come before you;
turn your ear to my cry.

3 For my soul is full of trouble
and my life draws near the grave.

4 I am counted among those who go down to the pit;
I am like a man without strength.

5 I am set apart with the dead,
like the slain who lie in the grave,
whom you remember no more,
who are cut off from your care.

6 You have put me in the lowest pit,
in the darkest depths.

7 Your wrath lies heavily upon me;
you have overwhelmed me with all your waves.
Selah

Where is the threat of eternal torment in the Old Testament?

Anna
 
The idea of Hell was probably invented just to scare and manipulate people.
 
**Continued–What is Hell in the Old Testament?
**
Isaiah Chapter 66:

*Judgment and Hope *

1 This is what the LORD says:
"Heaven is my throne,
and the earth is my footstool.
Where is the house you will build for me?
Where will my resting place be?

2 Has not my hand made all these things,
and so they came into being?"
declares the LORD.
"This is the one I esteem:
he who is humble and contrite in spirit,
and trembles at my word.

3 But whoever sacrifices a bull
is like one who kills a man,
and whoever offers a lamb,
like one who breaks a dog’s neck;
whoever makes a grain offering
is like one who presents pig’s blood,
and whoever burns memorial incense,
like one who worships an idol.
They have chosen their own ways,
and their souls delight in their abominations;

4 so I also will choose harsh treatment for them
and will bring upon them what they dread.
For when I called, no one answered,
when I spoke, no one listened.
They did evil in my sight
and chose what displeases me."

5 Hear the word of the LORD,
you who tremble at his word:
"Your brothers who hate you,
and exclude you because of my name, have said,
‘Let the LORD be glorified,
that we may see your joy!’
Yet they will be put to shame.

6 Hear that uproar from the city,
hear that noise from the temple!
It is the sound of the LORD
repaying his enemies all they deserve.

7 "Before she goes into labor,
she gives birth;
before the pains come upon her,
she delivers a son.

8 Who has ever heard of such a thing?
Who has ever seen such things?
Can a country be born in a day
or a nation be brought forth in a moment?
Yet no sooner is Zion in labor
than she gives birth to her children.

9 Do I bring to the moment of birth
and not give delivery?" says the LORD.
“Do I close up the womb
when I bring to delivery?” says your God.

10 "Rejoice with Jerusalem and be glad for her,
all you who love her;
rejoice greatly with her,
all you who mourn over her.

11 For you will nurse and be satisfied
at her comforting breasts;
you will drink deeply
and delight in her overflowing abundance."

12 For this is what the LORD says:
"I will extend peace to her like a river,
and the wealth of nations like a flooding stream;
you will nurse and be carried on her arm
and dandled on her knees.

13 As a mother comforts her child,
so will I comfort you;
and you will be comforted over Jerusalem."

14 When you see this, your heart will rejoice
and you will flourish like grass;
the hand of the LORD will be made known to his servants,
but his fury will be shown to his foes.

15 **See, the LORD is coming with fire,
and his chariots are like a whirlwind;
he will bring down his anger with fury,
and his rebuke with flames of fire. **

16 **For with fire and with his sword
the LORD will execute judgment upon all men,
and many will be those slain **by the LORD.

17 “Those who consecrate and purify themselves to go into the gardens, following the one in the midst of those who eat the flesh of pigs and rats and other abominable things—they will meet their end together,” declares the LORD.

18 "And I, because of their actions and their imaginations, am about to come and gather all nations and tongues, and they will come and see my glory.

19 "I will set a sign among them, and I will send some of those who survive to the nations—to Tarshish, to the Libyans and Lydians (famous as archers), to Tubal and Greece, and to the distant islands that have not heard of my fame or seen my glory. They will proclaim my glory among the nations.

20 And they will bring all your brothers, from all the nations, to my holy mountain in Jerusalem as an offering to the LORD -on horses, in chariots and wagons, and on mules and camels," says the LORD. “They will bring them, as the Israelites bring their grain offerings, to the temple of the LORD in ceremonially clean vessels. 21 And I will select some of them also to be priests and Levites,” says the LORD.

22 “As the new heavens and the new earth that I make will endure before me,” declares the LORD, “so will your name and descendants endure. 23 From one New Moon to another and from one Sabbath to another, all mankind will come and bow down before me,” says the LORD.

24** “And they will go out and look upon the dead bodies **of those who rebelled against me; their worm will not die, nor will their fire be quenched, and they will be loathsome to all mankind.”

**Verse 16 tells us the Lord with execute judgment upon all men and many will be slain, by the Lord, with fire and with his sword. **

Verse 24 tells us the bodies of the wicked are dead. An unquenchable fire burns, until it has consumed everything.

This is a clear picture of destruction/annihilation, which is consistent with the other O.T. quotes in my last post.

Anna
 
Vimy_Ridge said:
The idea of Hell was probably invented just to scare and manipulate people.
Click to expand...
I think you are right.

This is a quote from Heaven and Hell, What does the Bible Really Teach?
Link: ucg.org/booklets/HL/punish-people-forever-hell.asp

"An angry God

One of the most graphic descriptions of the torments of hell as conceived by men was given by the Puritan minister Jonathan Edwards in a 1741 sermon, "Sinners in the Hands of an Angry God."

He said: "The bow of God’s wrath is bent, and the arrows made ready…[by] an angry God…It is nothing but His mere pleasure that keeps you from being this moment swallowed up in everlasting destruction! The God that holds you over the pit of hell, much as one holds a spider, or some loathsome insect over the fire, abhors you and is dreadfully provoked: His wrath towards you burns like fire; He looks upon you as worthy of nothing else, but to be cast into the fire…

"You are ten thousand times more abominable in His eyes than the most hateful venomous serpent is in ours. You have offended Him…and yet it is nothing but His hand that holds you from falling into the fire every moment…

“O sinner! Consider the fearful danger you are in: it is a great furnace of wrath, a wide and bottomless pit, full of the fire of wrath, that you are held over in the hand of God…You hang by a slender thread, with the flames of divine wrath flashing about it, and ready every moment to singe it, and burn it asunder.”

This human concept of hell was so terrible that the prospect of such a fate caused great anguish, fear and anxiety for many Puritans. “The heavy emphasis on hell and damnation combined with an excessive self-scrutiny led many into clinical depression: suicide seems to have been prevalent” (Karen Armstrong, A History of God, 1993, p. 284).

The Puritans were not the only ones tormented by fear of hell. Many people have been terrorized by the thought of hell ever since this non-biblical concept crept into religious teaching. **Other ministers and teachers have, like Jonathan Edwards, used a similar approach to frighten people into belief and obedience.
**
One of the reasons this concept of hell survived is because theologians believed the teaching deterred people from evil. “It was thought that, if the fear of eternal punishment were removed, most people would behave without any moral restraint whatever and that society would collapse into an anarchical orgy” (Walker, p. 4)."

Anna
 
The Early Church Fathers and Pope John Paul II do not seem to be in agreement with the definition of “hell.”

**Justin Martyr (151AD) **
We have been taught that only they may aim at immortality who have lived a holy and virtuous life near to God. We believe that they who live wickedly and do not repent will be punished in everlasting fire (“First Apology” 21).

[Jesus] shall come from the heavens in glory with his angelic host, when he shall raise the bodies of all the men who ever lived. Then he will clothe the worthy in immortality; but the wicked, clothed in eternal sensibility, he will commit to the eternal fire, along with the evil demons (“First Apology” 52).

**From “The Epistle of Barnabas” (70-130AD) **
The way of darkness is crooked, and it is full of cursing. It is the way of eternal death with punishment. (“Epistle of Barnabas”)

**From “Second Clement” (150AD) **
If we do the will of Christ, we shall obtain rest; but if not, if we neglect his commandments, nothing will rescue us from eternal punishment (“Second Clement” 5:5)

**From “The Martyrdom of Polycarp” (155AD) **
Fixing their minds on the grace of Christ, [the martyrs] despised worldly tortures and purchased eternal life with but a single hour. To them, the fire of their cruel torturers was cold. They kept before their eyes their escape from the eternal and unquenchable fire (“Martyrdom of Polycarp” 2:3)

**From Athenagoras of Athens (175AD) **
We are persuaded that when we are removed from the present life we will live another life, better than the present one…or, if they fall with the rest, they will endure a worse life, one in fire. For God has not made us as sheep or beasts of burden, who are mere by-products. For animals perish and are annihilated. On these grounds, it is not likely that we would wish to do evil. (“Apology”)

**From Theophilus of Antioch (181AD) **
Give studious attention to the prophetic writings [the Bible] and they will lead you on a clearer path to escape the eternal punishments and to obtain the eternal good things of God. . . . [God] will examine everything and will judge justly, granting recompense to each according to merit. To those who seek immortality by the patient exercise of good works, he will give everlasting life, joy, peace, rest, and all good things. . . . For the unbelievers and for the contemptuous, and for those who do not submit to the truth but assent to iniquity, when they have been involved in adulteries, and fornications, and homosexualities, and avarice, and in lawless idolatries, there will be wrath and indignation, tribulation and anguish; and in the end, such men as these will be detained in everlasting fire (“To Autolycus” 1:14)

From Irenaeus (189AD)
[God will] send the spiritual forces of wickedness, and the angels who transgressed and became apostates, and the impious, unjust, lawless, and blasphemous among men into everlasting fire (“Against Heresies” 1:10:1)

The penalty increases for those who do not believe the Word of God and despise his coming. . . . *t is not merely temporal, but eternal. To whomsoever the Lord shall say, ‘Depart from me, accursed ones, into the everlasting fire,’ they will be damned forever (“Against Heresies” 4:28:2)

**From Tertullian (197AD) **
But the godless and those who have not turned wholly to God will be punished in fire equally unending, and they shall have from the very nature of this fire, divine as it were, a supply of incorruptibility (“Apology” 44:12–13).

By the time we reach Pope John Paul II, “hell” has an entirely different definition. So, the interpretations of the fate of the lost in the afterlife, does not appear to be fixed, even within the Catholic Church.

Quote from Pope John Paul II:

HEAVEN, HELL AND PURGATORY
Pope John Paul II

"Hell is the State of Those who Reject God

At the General Audience of Wednesday, 28 July 1999, the Holy Father reflected on hell as the definitive rejection of God. In his catechesis, the Pope said that care should be taken to interpret correctly the images of hell in Sacred Scripture, and explained that “hell is the ultimate consequence of sin itself… Rather than a place, hell indicates the state of those who freely and definitively separate themselves from God, the source of all life and joy”.
  1. God is the infinitely good and merciful Father. But man, called to respond to him freely, can unfortunately choose to reject his love and forgiveness once and for all, thus separating himself for ever from joyful communion with him. It is precisely this tragic situation that Christian doctrine explains when it speaks of eternal damnation or hell. It is not a punishment imposed externally by God but a development of premises already set by people in this life. The very dimension of unhappiness which this obscure condition brings can in a certain way be sensed in the light of some of the terrible experiences we have suffered which, as is commonly said, make life “hell”.
In a theological sense however, hell is something else: it is the ultimate consequence of sin itself, which turns against the person who committed it. It is the state of those who definitively reject the Father’s mercy, even at the last moment of their life."

ewtn.com/library/PAPALDOC/JP2HEAVN.HTM#Hell

Provided Courtesy of:
Eternal Word Television Network
5817 Old Leeds Road
Irondale, AL 35210
www.ewtn.com

Please correct me, if I have misquoted, or misunderstood. I am not Catholic, so I do not want to misrepresent the beliefs of the Catholic Church.

It does seem that Pope John Paul II broke from the traditional Catholic interpretation of Hell. Would Catholic Forum Members help me to understand this?

Respectfully,
Anna*
 
Though I believe Hell is eternal death/annihillition; I find the comments of Pope John Paul II to be very interesting; and I am glad to see a departure from the threat of a phyical eternally tormenting fire, which seems inconsistent with a loving God. I have always had great respect for Pope John Paul II.

Emphasis is mine.

HEAVEN, HELL AND PURGATORY
Pope John Paul II

Hell is the State of Those who Reject God

At the General Audience of Wednesday, 28 July 1999, the Holy Father reflected on hell as the definitive rejection of God. In his catechesis, the Pope said that care should be taken to interpret correctly the images of hell in Sacred Scripture, and explained that “hell is the ultimate consequence of sin itself… Rather than a place, hell indicates the state of those who freely and definitively separate themselves from God, the source of all life and joy”.
  1. God is the infinitely good and merciful Father. But man, called to respond to him freely, can unfortunately choose to reject his love and forgiveness once and for all, thus separating himself for ever from joyful communion with him. It is precisely this tragic situation that Christian doctrine explains when it speaks of eternal damnation or hell. It is not a punishment imposed externally by God but a development of premises already set by people in this life. The very dimension of unhappiness which this obscure condition brings can in a certain way be sensed in the light of some of the terrible experiences we have suffered which, as is commonly said, make life “hell”.
In a theological sense however, hell is something else: it is the ultimate consequence of sin itself, which turns against the person who committed it. It is the state of those who definitively reject the Father’s mercy, even at the last moment of their life.
Hell is a state of eternal damnation
  1. To describe this reality **Sacred Scripture uses a symbolical language **which will gradually be explained. In the Old Testament the condition of the dead had not yet been fully disclosed by Revelation. Moreover it was thought that the dead were amassed in Sheol, a land of darkness (cf. Ez. 28:8; 31:14; Jb. 10:21f.; 38:17; Ps 30:10; 88:7, 13), a pit from which one cannot reascend (cf. Jb. 7:9), a place in which it is impossible to praise God (cf. Is 38:18; Ps 6:6).
The New Testament sheds new light on the condition of the dead, proclaiming above all that Christ by his Resurrection conquered death and extended his liberating power to the kingdom of the dead.

Redemption nevertheless remains an offer of salvation which it is up to people to accept freely. This is why they will all be judged “by what they [have done]” (Rv 20:13). By using images, the New Testament presents the place destined for evildoers as a fiery furnace, where people will “weep and gnash their teeth” (Mt 13:42; cf. 25:30, 41), or like Gehenna with its “unquenchable fire” (Mk 9:43). All this is narrated in the parable of the rich man, which explains that hell is a place of eternal suffering, with no possibility of return, nor of the alleviation of pain (cf. Lk. 16:19-3 1).
The Book of Revelation also figuratively portrays in a “pool of fire” those who exclude themselves from the book of life, thus meeting with a “second death” (Rv. 20:13f.). Whoever continues to be closed to the Gospel is therefore preparing for 'eternal destruction and exclusion from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of his might" (2 Thes 1:9).
  1. *The images of hell that Sacred Scripture presents to us must be correctly interpreted. They show the complete frustration and emptiness of life without God. Rather than a place, hell indicates the state of those who freely and definitively separate themselves from God, the source of all life and joy. **This is how the Catechism of the Catholic Church summarizes the truths of faith on this subject: “To die in mortal sin without repenting and accepting God’s merciful love means remaining separated from him for ever by our own free choice. This state of definitive self-exclusion from communion with God and the blessed is called ‘hell’” (n. 1033).
**“Eternal damnation”, therefore, is not attributed to God’s initiative because in his merciful love he can only desire the salvation of the beings he created. **In reality, it is the creature who closes himself to his love. Damnation consists precisely in definitive separation from God, freely chosen by the human person and confirmed with death that seals his choice for ever. God’s judgement ratifies this state.

We are saved from going to hell by Jesus who conquered Satan
  1. Christian faith teaches that in taking the risk of saying “yes” or “no”, which marks the human creature’s freedom, some have already said no. They are the spiritual creatures that rebelled against God’s love and are called demons (cf. Fourth Lateran Council, DS 800-801). What happened to them is a warning to us: it is a continuous call to avoid the tragedy which leads to sin and to conform our life to that of Jesus who lived his life with a “yes” to God.
Eternal damnation remains a real possibility, but we are not granted, without special divine revelation, the knowledge of whether or which human beings are effectively involved in it. The thought of hell — and even less the improper use of biblical images — must not create anxiety or despair, but is a necessary and healthy reminder of freedom within the proclamation that the risen Jesus has conquered Satan, giving us the, Spirit of God who makes us cry “Abba, Father!” (Rm. 8:15; Gal. 4:6).

This prospect, rich in hope, prevails in Christian proclamation. It is effectively reflected in the liturgical tradition of the Church, as the words of the Roman Canon attest: “Father, accept this offering from your whole family … save us from final damnation, and count us among those you have chosen”.

Provided Courtesy of:
Eternal Word Television Network
5817 Old Leeds Road
Irondale, AL 35210
www.ewtn.com​

Respectfully,
Anna
 
Vimy_Ridge said:
The idea of Hell was probably invented just to scare and manipulate people.
Click to expand...
When you go to heaven you get a new body because this one is gone?
Douse god make people new bodies so they will be able to burn in hell? Are the bodies burn proof or douse he keep giving new bodies to those in hell?

Why did Jesus die? Could god not forgive us without death?

You make it sound like Jesus death was to give us a heart for a open heart transplant operation.
But the bible story said Jesus got tortured on the cross to please god or (to make the payment for man’s sins).
god did not like sin he was not pleased and unable to forgive. So to make him happy so he will forgive we had to kill Jesus his son.
Now god will find it in his heart not to torture us for all eternity.
How is this logical?
#1 god makes the rules
#2 god made sin evil and the devil
#3 god made the tree for Adam to eat from
#4 god maid hell just to torture his creations (he could just make them vanish)
 
Anna_Scott said:
The Early Church Fathers and Pope John Paul II do not seem to be in agreement with the definition of “hell.”
Click to expand...
One thing that I do take seriously is making sure any Biblical interpretation I adopt is well grounded in the context of the historical church.

In other words, any Biblical interpretation that is a nice new idea of the last 50 or 100 years is…well…wrong. A while back I started a thread on gay marriage on this same assumption.

This is simply John Wesley interpreting Scripture in the light of history.

As much as I may not personally like it (having the motivational gift of mercy and all that) hell as eternal torment passes the test of history. I can not speak for the other options.
 
NotTooSmart said:
One thing that I do take seriously is making sure any Biblical interpretation I adopt is well grounded in the context of the historical church.

In other words, any Biblical interpretation that is a nice new idea of the last 50 or 100 years is…well…wrong. A while back I started a thread on gay marriage on this same assumption.

This is simply John Wesley interpreting Scripture in the light of history.

As much as I may not personally like it (having the motivational gift of mercy and all that) hell as eternal torment passes the test of history. I can not speak for the other options.
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I respect your position and I always enjoy reading your posts.

Am curiours: What do you see as proof texts for eternal torment?

Anna
 
cantheist said:
. . . .Why did Jesus die? Could god not forgive us without death?. . . . #1 god makes the rules
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cantheist:

In the book, “Why the Jews Rejected Jesus,” the author raised the same issue–basically asking if God is God; and He makes the rules, why does anyone have to die? (paraphrased.)

I have read modern commentaries on the Torah that pose the possibility that God required the Jewish people to sacrifice to Him–to prevent their sacrificing to pagan gods.

Many of the Jews, today, do not believe that a blood sacrifice is necessary for the forgiveness of sins.

Some of the Old Testament writings certainly sound like there was a point, when God no longer required sacrifice.

Psalm Chapter 40:
6 In sacrifice and offering you have not delighted,
but you have given me an open ear.
** Burnt offering and sin offering
you have not required.
**
Psalm Chapter 50:
7 "Hear, O my people, and I will speak;
O Israel, I will testify against you.
I am God, your God.
8 Not for your sacrifices do I rebuke you;
your burnt offerings are continually before me.
9 I will not accept a bull from your house
or goats from your folds.
10** For every beast of the forest is mine,
the cattle on a thousand hills.
11 I know all the birds of the hills,
and all that moves in the field is mine.
12 “If I were hungry, I would not tell you,
for the world and its fullness are mine.
13 Do I eat the flesh of bulls
or drink the blood of goats?
14 Offer to God a sacrifice of thanksgiving,
and perform your vows to the Most High,
15 and call upon me in the day of trouble;
I will deliver you, and you shall glorify me.”**

Psalm Chapter 51:
16 For you will not delight in sacrifice, or I would give it;
you will not be pleased with a burnt offering.
17 The sacrifices of God are a broken spirit;
a broken and contrite heart, O God, you will not despise.
**
1 Samuel Chapter 15:
22 And Samuel said,
"Has the LORD as great delight in burnt offerings and sacrifices,
as in obeying the voice of the LORD?
Behold, to obey is better than sacrifice,
and to listen than the fat of rams.
**
Hosea Chapter 6:
6 For I desire steadfast love[a] and not sacrifice,
the knowledge of God rather than burnt offerings.

Micah Chapter 6:
6 “With what shall I come before the LORD,
and bow myself before God on high?
Shall I come before him with burnt offerings,
with calves a year old?
7 Will the LORD be pleased with thousands of rams,
with ten thousands of rivers of oil?
Shall I give my firstborn for my transgression,
the fruit of my body for the sin of my soul?”
8 He has told you, O man, what is good;
and what does the LORD require of you
but to do justice, and to love kindness,
and to walk humbly with your God?

Jeremiah Chapter 7:
22 For in the day that I brought them out of the land of Egypt, I did not speak to your fathers or command them concerning burnt offerings and sacrifices. 23 But this command I gave them: ‘Obey my voice, and I will be your God, and you shall be my people. And walk in all the way that I command you, that it may be well with you.’

Isaiah speaks of the guilt of Jacob being atoned for “when he makes all the stones of the altars like chalkstones crushed to pieces.” No sacrifice is mentioned here.

Isaiah Chapter 27: 9Therefore by this the guilt of Jacob will be atoned for, and this will be the full fruit of the removal of his sin: when he makes all the stones of the altars like chalkstones crushed to pieces, no Asherim or incense altars will remain standing.

The New Testament has some puzzling passages, as well.

Matthew Chapter 9: 13 Go and learn what this means, ‘I desire mercy, and not sacrifice.’ For I came not to call the righteous, but sinners."

Matthew Chapter 12: 6 I tell you, something greater than the temple is here. 7And if you had known what this means,** ‘I desire mercy, and not sacrifice**,’ you would not have condemned the guiltless.

Jesus forgave sins in the N.T.; and I cannot recall even one instance when he instructed the sinner to go to the temple and make a blood atonement to complete the forgiveness of sin. Christ had not yet been sacrificed, so His blood atonement had not occurred. Yet, he still forgave sins throughout the N.T.

John, baptized, not just for the repentance of sin; but for the repentance and forgiveness of sin. John did not instruct, those he baptized, to go to the temple and make a blood atonement after their Baptism.

Mark Chapter 1:
4 John appeared, baptizing in the wilderness and proclaiming a baptism of repentance for the forgiveness of sins. 5And all the country of Judea and all Jerusalem were going out to him and were being baptized by him in the river Jordan, confessing their sins.

Luke Chapter 3:
3 And he went into all the region around the Jordan, proclaiming a baptism of repentance for the forgiveness of sins. 4

The following passage has been one I have wondered about for a long time. It is well known for stating the Great Commandment.

Mark Chapter 12:
28 And one of the scribes came up and heard them disputing with one another, and seeing that he answered them well, asked him, “Which commandment is the most important of all?”

29 Jesus answered, “The most important is, ‘Hear, O Israel: The Lord our God, the Lord is one. 30 And you shall love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind and with all your strength.’ 31 The second is this: ‘You shall love your neighbor as yourself.’ There is no other commandment greater than these.”

32 And the scribe said to him, “You are right, Teacher. You have truly said that he is one, and there is no other besides him. 33 And to love him with all the heart and with all the understanding and with all the strength, and to love one’s neighbor as oneself, is much more than all whole burnt offerings and sacrifices.” 34 And when Jesus saw that he answered wisely, he said to him, “You are not far from the kingdom of God.” And after that no one dared to ask him any more questions.

I have wondered why Jesus would agree that to love God and one’s neighbor is more important than “all whole burnt offerings and sacrifices”; knowing He would be the ultimate sacrifice. Perhaps someone else could comment on this.

Anna
 
Anna_Scott said:
I respect your position and I always enjoy reading your posts.

Am curiours: What do you see as proof texts for eternal torment?

Anna
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Proof text is too strong of a word. To logically prove something from the Biblical text is much more difficult than it seems.

The strongest Scripture in support of eternal torment in my mind is Luke 16:19-31 where you encounter words such as torment, agony, flame. If you combine this Scripture with a few other similar ones along with the argument from history (hell has for 2000 years been traditionally viewed as a place of torment by Catholics, Protestants and (I assume) Orthodox), you have a pretty strong argument.

The best counter argument in my mind is to start with what we know about the character of God and work backwards from there. It seems to me that if I accept that God is holy and can / will not sin, then either what I understand to be sin is way off base (for example killing heretics for Christ by burning them at the stake…that is nothing compared to what God does), or God does what he has declared to be sin to us humans, thereby maintaining a double standard, or the Chick tract characterization of hell is a tad off base and it is not a place of eternal torment.

Still mulling this over in my mind. Both of these arguments seem good, but they are obviously contradictory.
 
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