K
kooldood
Guest
i would say eternal seperation from God. that would prbly be, at any rate, the worst possible tormentation, so i guess purgatory is like temporary hell.
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A
Anna_Scott
Guest
What is Hell in the Old Testament?
When I first read the Old Testament all the way through, I realized I had not read anything that threatened eternal torment of the lost? Genesis reveals the punishment of Adam and Eve’s disobedience to God, is “death.”
Genesis Chapter 2:17: but of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil you shall not eat, for in the day that you eat of it you shall surely die."
Genesis Chapter 3:19: By the sweat of your face you shall eat bread, till you return to the ground, for out of it you were taken; for you are dust, and to dust you shall return."
Consider Sodom and Gomorrah:
Genesis Chapter 19: 23 By the time Lot reached Zoar, the sun had risen over the land. 24 Then the LORD rained down burning sulfur on Sodom and Gomorrah—from the LORD out of the heavens.
25 Thus he overthrew those cities and the entire plain, including all those living in the cities—and also the vegetation in the land. 26 But Lot’s wife looked back, and she became a pillar of salt.
27 Early the next morning Abraham got up and returned to the place where he had stood before the LORD. 28 He looked down toward Sodom and Gomorrah, toward all the land of the plain, and he saw dense smoke rising from the land, like smoke from a furnace.
29 So when God destroyed the cities of the plain, he remembered Abraham, and he brought Lot out of the catastrophe that overthrew the cities where Lot had lived.
Sodom and Gomorrah were completely destroyed.
Jude Chapter 7: In a similar way, Sodom and Gomorrah and the surrounding towns gave themselves up to sexual immorality and perversion. They serve as an example of those who suffer the punishment of eternal fire.
The fires of Sodom and Gomorrah burned, until all was consumed. If they are to serve as an example of those who suffer the punishment of eternal fire; then “Eternal fire” must not be synonymous with “eternal torment.”
The fires are not still burning today, nor will they be burning for all eternity. It seems clear that eternal fire is not equivalent to eternal torment.
Malachi Chapter 4:
1 “Surely the day is coming; it will burn like a furnace. All the arrogant and every evildoer will be stubble, and that day that is coming will set them on fire,” says the LORD Almighty. “Not a root or a branch will be left to them. 2 But for you who revere my name, the sun of righteousness will rise with healing in its wings. And you will go out and leap like calves released from the stall. 3 Then you will trample down the wicked; they will be ashes under the soles of your feet on the day when I do these things,” says the LORD Almighty.
Malachi paints a very clear picture of destruction by fire, the annihilation of the wicked, who will be “stubble,” and who will be “ashes under the soles of your feet.” This is death/eternal destruction/annihilation.
Ezekiel Chapter 18: 4 Behold, all souls are mine; the soul of the father as well as the soul of the son is mine: the soul who sins shall die.
Ezekiel Chapter 18: 20 The soul who sins shall die. The son shall not suffer for the iniquity of the father, nor the father suffer for the iniquity of the son. The righteousness of the righteous shall be upon himself, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon himself.
We all die a physical death. If the “soul who sins shall die”; this must be death of the soul.
Psalm Chapter 37: 20 But the wicked will perish: The LORD’s enemies will be like the beauty of the fields, they will vanish—vanish like smoke.
Psalms tell us, “the wicked will perish” and “vanish like smoke.”
Ecclesiastes Chapter 9:
5 For the living know that they will die,
but the dead know nothing;
they have no further reward,
and even the memory of them is forgotten.
6 Their love, their hate
and their jealousy have long since vanished;
never again will they have a part
in anything that happens under the sun.
7 Go, eat your food with gladness, and drink your wine with a joyful heart, for it is now that God favors what you do. 8 Always be clothed in white, and always anoint your head with oil. 9 Enjoy life with your wife, whom you love, all the days of this meaningless life that God has given you under the sun— all your meaningless days. For this is your lot in life and in your toilsome labor under the sun. **10 Whatever your hand finds to do, do it with all your might, for in the grave, [c] where you are going, there is neither working nor planning nor knowledge nor wisdom. **
Footnotes: (c) Ecclesiastes 9:10 Hebrew Sheol
**Ecclesiastes 12:7: ** and the dust returns to the ground it came from, and the spirit returns to God who gave it.
Psalm 88:
A song. A psalm of the Sons of Korah. For the director of music. According to mahalath leannoth. A maskil of Heman the Ezrahite.
1 O LORD, the God who saves me,
day and night I cry out before you.
2 May my prayer come before you;
turn your ear to my cry.
3 For my soul is full of trouble
and my life draws near the grave.
4 I am counted among those who go down to the pit;
I am like a man without strength.
5 I am set apart with the dead,
like the slain who lie in the grave,
whom you remember no more,
who are cut off from your care.
6 You have put me in the lowest pit,
in the darkest depths.
7 Your wrath lies heavily upon me;
you have overwhelmed me with all your waves.
Selah
Where is the threat of eternal torment in the Old Testament?
Anna
When I first read the Old Testament all the way through, I realized I had not read anything that threatened eternal torment of the lost? Genesis reveals the punishment of Adam and Eve’s disobedience to God, is “death.”
Genesis Chapter 2:17: but of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil you shall not eat, for in the day that you eat of it you shall surely die."
Genesis Chapter 3:19: By the sweat of your face you shall eat bread, till you return to the ground, for out of it you were taken; for you are dust, and to dust you shall return."
Consider Sodom and Gomorrah:
Genesis Chapter 19: 23 By the time Lot reached Zoar, the sun had risen over the land. 24 Then the LORD rained down burning sulfur on Sodom and Gomorrah—from the LORD out of the heavens.
25 Thus he overthrew those cities and the entire plain, including all those living in the cities—and also the vegetation in the land. 26 But Lot’s wife looked back, and she became a pillar of salt.
27 Early the next morning Abraham got up and returned to the place where he had stood before the LORD. 28 He looked down toward Sodom and Gomorrah, toward all the land of the plain, and he saw dense smoke rising from the land, like smoke from a furnace.
29 So when God destroyed the cities of the plain, he remembered Abraham, and he brought Lot out of the catastrophe that overthrew the cities where Lot had lived.
Sodom and Gomorrah were completely destroyed.
Jude Chapter 7: In a similar way, Sodom and Gomorrah and the surrounding towns gave themselves up to sexual immorality and perversion. They serve as an example of those who suffer the punishment of eternal fire.
The fires of Sodom and Gomorrah burned, until all was consumed. If they are to serve as an example of those who suffer the punishment of eternal fire; then “Eternal fire” must not be synonymous with “eternal torment.”
The fires are not still burning today, nor will they be burning for all eternity. It seems clear that eternal fire is not equivalent to eternal torment.
Malachi Chapter 4:
1 “Surely the day is coming; it will burn like a furnace. All the arrogant and every evildoer will be stubble, and that day that is coming will set them on fire,” says the LORD Almighty. “Not a root or a branch will be left to them. 2 But for you who revere my name, the sun of righteousness will rise with healing in its wings. And you will go out and leap like calves released from the stall. 3 Then you will trample down the wicked; they will be ashes under the soles of your feet on the day when I do these things,” says the LORD Almighty.
Malachi paints a very clear picture of destruction by fire, the annihilation of the wicked, who will be “stubble,” and who will be “ashes under the soles of your feet.” This is death/eternal destruction/annihilation.
Ezekiel Chapter 18: 4 Behold, all souls are mine; the soul of the father as well as the soul of the son is mine: the soul who sins shall die.
Ezekiel Chapter 18: 20 The soul who sins shall die. The son shall not suffer for the iniquity of the father, nor the father suffer for the iniquity of the son. The righteousness of the righteous shall be upon himself, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon himself.
We all die a physical death. If the “soul who sins shall die”; this must be death of the soul.
Psalm Chapter 37: 20 But the wicked will perish: The LORD’s enemies will be like the beauty of the fields, they will vanish—vanish like smoke.
Psalms tell us, “the wicked will perish” and “vanish like smoke.”
Ecclesiastes Chapter 9:
5 For the living know that they will die,
but the dead know nothing;
they have no further reward,
and even the memory of them is forgotten.
6 Their love, their hate
and their jealousy have long since vanished;
never again will they have a part
in anything that happens under the sun.
7 Go, eat your food with gladness, and drink your wine with a joyful heart, for it is now that God favors what you do. 8 Always be clothed in white, and always anoint your head with oil. 9 Enjoy life with your wife, whom you love, all the days of this meaningless life that God has given you under the sun— all your meaningless days. For this is your lot in life and in your toilsome labor under the sun. **10 Whatever your hand finds to do, do it with all your might, for in the grave, [c] where you are going, there is neither working nor planning nor knowledge nor wisdom. **
Footnotes: (c) Ecclesiastes 9:10 Hebrew Sheol
**Ecclesiastes 12:7: ** and the dust returns to the ground it came from, and the spirit returns to God who gave it.
Psalm 88:
A song. A psalm of the Sons of Korah. For the director of music. According to mahalath leannoth. A maskil of Heman the Ezrahite.
1 O LORD, the God who saves me,
day and night I cry out before you.
2 May my prayer come before you;
turn your ear to my cry.
3 For my soul is full of trouble
and my life draws near the grave.
4 I am counted among those who go down to the pit;
I am like a man without strength.
5 I am set apart with the dead,
like the slain who lie in the grave,
whom you remember no more,
who are cut off from your care.
6 You have put me in the lowest pit,
in the darkest depths.
7 Your wrath lies heavily upon me;
you have overwhelmed me with all your waves.
Selah
Where is the threat of eternal torment in the Old Testament?
Anna
U
Usbek_de_Perse
Guest
a foretaste of hell would being chained to a chair and being made to watch a weekend marathon of “Married with Children”.
A
Anna_Scott
Guest
Indeed, everyone seems to have their own definition of Hell.
I wanted to revive this thread with more discussion. Any comments on the definition of Hell, other than the above?
Anna
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