Well if you come into a Church dressed scandalously, that’s kind of how Catholics are instructed by Church teaching to respond to such disorderly dsplays, with the exception of cracking jokes of course.I’m sorry this has happened to you.
I’m sure you’ve shared things here (such as the fact that you’re celibate) that the parishoners at your Church don’t know; but, that doesn’t excuse them judging you, nor does it make it right.
How scandelously does a person have to be dressed in order to be justly called a deviant? I’m assuming this man isn’t going into Mass wearing a fedora and lipstick.Well if you come into a Church dressed scandalously, that’s kind of how Catholics are instructed by Church teaching to respond to such disorderly dsplays, with the exception of cracking jokes of course.
That mother was actually not wrong to refuse to seat her child next to someone who scandalized the faith by appearing to say that homosexual behavior is ok, in a house of God, of all places.
Certain words have grossly overstated connotations. That’s the same reason you can no longer use the word “heretic” to describe someone who is behaving “heretically,” even though the Church Fathers used that term all the time; indeed, most Catholics in America are probably heretics, since, I believe a small majority of them tend to be liberal on social issues in contravention of Church teaching.How scandelously does a person have to be dressed in order to be justly called a deviant? I’m assuming this man isn’t going into Mass wearing a fedora and lipstick.
You didn’t answer the question. I didn’t get from his post that he was running around in sequins. He said that his overall appearance was effiminate and he was trying to combat that by changing his hair style and attire. That doesn’t automatically mean that his original clothes were at all inappropriate for Mass. So, are we allowed to call every guy in a turtle neck a deviant? What, pray tell, is the cutoff line? Too much hair gel? argyle socks? Pants made out of linen?Certain words have grossly overstated connotations. That’s the same reason you can no longer use the word “heretic” to describe someone who is behaving “heretically,” even though the Church Fathers used that term all the time; indeed, most Catholics in America are probably heretics, since, I believe a small majority of them tend to be liberal on social issues in contravention of Church teaching.
As to the particulars of his appearance, I can’t comment. But the point is, he admitted to dressing according to the flamboyant homosexual stereotype. And it’s not just homosexuals. Have you ever been in Mass during the summertime when heterosexual girls are wearing shorts hiked all the way up to their buttocks? It’s disturbing.
It’s bad enough girls are wearing those black spandex leggings in Church during the winter time.
This shouldn’t happen, and the only way you discourage that kind of behavior is by instructing the person against doing it, stigmatizing it and disassociating with it.
You are intentionally avoiding the use of common sense.You didn’t answer the question. I didn’t get from his post that he was running around in sequins. He said that his overall appearance was effiminate and he was trying to combat that by changing his hair style and attire. That doesn’t automatically mean that his original clothes were at all inappropriate for Mass. So, are we allowed to call every guy in a turtle neck a deviant? What, pray tell, is the cutoff line? Too much hair gel? argyle socks? Pants made out of linen?
Of course they want different things but their sexual identity seems to drive everything and determine how they define things. Homosexuals never say that is something they do, but something they are. Now, isn’t that truly dehumanising?That was on topic! They all want different things, because they are individuals, just like anyone. They are far more than their sexual identity, as many tend to forget.
My answer to the question is that they all want different things. My answer in not off topic just because I refused to throw out a nasty generalization.
mitex, I can understand what you are going through. Since I was a small child even wearing lace and ribbons I had a peculiar look that many many people thought I was a boy. As a teen and young adult I was "yes sir and excuse me sir and can I help you,sir"ed more times than I could begin to count. Any attempts to “feminize” my look resulted in me looking like a man dressed as a woman. Additionally my own discomfort and awkwardness in heels and dresses added to the problem. A lot of that was from injury to my psyche but a lot of it was simply just the way it was. After many years of healing, I actually embraced my femininity and still, that healed embrace on the inside didn’t change the fact that I am still very masculine in appearance. When I go to Church( or anywhere for that matter) the assumption is automatic- “lesbian”.It’s rather obvious I’m a homosexual/gay/same-sex attracted (to be sensitive to everyone’s terms). Let’s put it this way. I am stereotypical. Connect the dots from there.
People see me and they like to talk. Although I’m working on trying to overhaul the way I dress, act, and appear in public its very difficult and an expensive process. I have to buy more neutral clothing that is more… Less campy and flashy… I have to change my hairstyle.
I’m a target. So yes I do have a sign in some respects. And that leads to all the problems.
I would disregard everything this person says. They are a xenophobe and a bully. God made you the way you are for a reason. You have your own gifts to share. You aren’t engaging in deviant sexual behaviors. You’ve done nothing wrong by being yourself.Ok.
So what’s the lesson here?
You were angry and hurt because some mother said to her kids don’t sit next to him because he’s a devaint. Correct?
And you had your feelings hurt when a few made some smart cracks about the way you were dressed. Correct?
And here you are telling us you are a celibate homosexual who just wants to go to Church and be like everyone else. Correct?
The thing is, you are dressing up like a full blown, practicing homosexual, or as a typical ‘gay’. Stop dressing like a typical practicing gay, because, not being one, you are not typical. You are labelling yourself as something you are not. That’s what the gay lobby has done to you. It is they who have labelled you because they have encouraged gays to dress a certain way and to flaunt their homosexuality, their difference, in the faces of society. And society feels threatened and hurt, just like you do. Flaunting it in Church is flaunting something that is not catholic, so that’s worse!
So go buy a pair of jeans and a nice shirt and see what happens. Or even go buy a nice suit to use as your Sunday best. See how you get on then. If you wont, then perhaps you just want to continue to flaunt your gayness, which is the same as labelling yourself, or the same as putting a great big sign around your neck. Imagine if I went to Church and said to people “Hi, my name is John and I’m a practicing heterosexual male”! They’d throw me in the loony bin, wouldn’t they?
Excuse me, but the poster John is neither the descriptors you used. His counsel should not be disregarded. It took John several posts in an effort to draw out the reason from mitex for commenting among other things that attending Mass or going to Church makes him feel unsafe, clearly an exaggeration. If you think about it, it is rather odd that mitex would be getting the reaction or hearing comments from others in Church the things he claimed. This is not to justify the mother’s uncharitable remarks within his hearing range if indeed they were made while talking to her probably confused child.I would disregard everything this person says. They are a xenophobe and a bully. God made you the way you are for a reason. You have your own gifts to share. You aren’t engaging in deviant sexual behaviors. You’ve done nothing wrong by being yourself.
Mitex,The thing is, you are dressing up like a full blown, practicing homosexual, or as a typical ‘gay’. Stop dressing like a typical practicing gay, because, not being one, you are not typical. You are labelling yourself as something you are not. That’s what the gay lobby has done to you. It is they who have labelled you because they have encouraged gays to dress a certain way and to flaunt their homosexuality, their difference, in the faces of society. And society feels threatened and hurt, just like you do. Flaunting it in Church is flaunting something that is not catholic, so that’s worse!
I know you don’t see it that way. His advice was conform or you are brining it on yourself. That’s wrong. God made him the way he is. It is not for us to judge. Hes not sinning with homosexual acts. If people can’t embrace him they should have the decency to leave him alone.Excuse me, but the poster John is neither the descriptors you used. His counsel should not be disregarded. It took John several posts in an effort to draw out the reason from mitex for commenting among other things that attending Mass or going to Church makes him feel unsafe, clearly an exaggeration. If you think about it, it is rather odd that mitex would be getting the reaction or hearing comments from others in Church the things he claimed. This is not to justify the mother’s uncharitable remarks within his hearing range if indeed they were made while talking to her probably confused child.
Finally, mitex did concede that his manner of dress is flashy, campy with hairstyle to match, which would certainly draw attention anywhere, let alone in Church during Mass. The picture would be more clear if readers are given an idea of his manner of walking and speaking, and if he is wearing make up. (It is not that uncommon now to see young men working in the cosmetics or clothing department in stores, sometimes fully made-up, in flashy clothes, and carrying on in a way that attracts attention. Going overboard with self expression, sort of thing.) He (mitex) just said the reader can just connect the dots … Anyway, celibate or not, the subtext of what he said on his choice of apparel and outside appearance to Church draws enough undue attention, it seems. It would be not unlike a woman who goes up to receive Communion, for instance, in a seductive red hot low cut and short dress. In said setting, it is inappropriate and creates scandal.
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You can believe all that feel-good nonsense all you want, but just know that it’s not Catholicism. Catholicism has rules of behavior, like any religion.I know you don’t see it that way. His advice was conform or you are brining it on yourself. That’s wrong. God made him the way he is. It is not for us to judge. Hes not sinning with homosexual acts. If people can’t embrace him they should have the decency to leave him alone.
He’s not having homosexual sex. What rule is he breaking?You can believe all that feel-good nonsense all you want, but just know that it’s not Catholicism. Catholicism has rules of behavior, like any religion.
I’m sorry, I took the phrase “He’s not sinning with homosexual acts” from your last post to mean that you were referring to sexual acts. Was I mistaken?He’s not having homosexual sex. What rule is he breaking?
He’s not breaking that rule - He’s NOT engaging in homosexual acts. God made him effeminate - its not for you to judge. If you find his very being offensive it speaks more to your character than his. He knows the cards he’s been delt and doing his best by not sinning. You support his effort not seek to bash him over the head. If you do, you are a bully.I’m sorry, I took the phrase “He’s not sinning with homosexual acts” from your last post to mean that you were referring to sexual acts. Was I mistaken?
Secondly, the Mass is a celebration of Christ’s sacrifice, it is a very solemn occasion. When attending Mass, we are not to dress flamboyantly and draw attention to ourselves, because then it distracts the thoughts of others present from God, to you.
Look, I’m giving you the Catholic teaching. You can take it or leave it. Did you know that disrupting a celebration of the Mass is a mortal sin? Certain unusual forms of dress are implicitly disruptive. Period. He shouldn’t dress effeminately for the same reason a young woman should not wear a miniskirt during the Mass; for the same reason men should not wear muscle shirts during the Mass. It is DISTRACTING. This rule of conduct applies to ANYONE, not just homosexuals.He’s not breaking that rule - He’s NOT engaging in homosexual acts. God made him effeminate - its not for you to judge. If you find his very being offensive it speaks more to your character than his. He knows the cards he’s been delt and doing his best by not sinning. You support his effort not seek to bash him over the head. If you do, you are a bully.
Where did he say he was trying to disrupt the Mass?Look, I’m giving you the Catholic teaching. You can take it or leave it. Did you know that disrupting a celebration of the Mass is a mortal sin? Certain unusual forms of dress are implicitly disruptive. Period. He shouldn’t dress effeminately for the same reason a young woman should not wear a miniskirt during the Mass; for the same reason men should not wear muscle shirts during the Mass. It is DISTRACTING. This rule of conduct applies to ANYONE, not just homosexuals.
If you think that dressing conservatively is oppressive, you probably do not belong in a Catholic Mass until you can reform your behavior. mitex has expressed in several posts that he is willing to conform his attire to acceptable standards.
You don’t believe that people can be unintentionally disruptive? Don’t you think that wearing a t-shirt to a funeral is disruptive, regardless of whether or not the person meant to disrupt the service?Where did he say he was trying to disrupt the Mass?
I’ll pray for you.
I think it is more the observers problem. If you take the time to get to know him, he’s not some weird guy but “Bob” who’s trying to live a Catholic life.You don’t believe that people can be unintentionally disruptive? Don’t you think that wearing a t-shirt to a funeral is disruptive, whether or not the person meant to disrupt the service?
Let me ask you something…why is inappropriate to come to Mass wearing pajamas, tanktops, or undershirts, for example?