What is it that homosexuals really want?

[cargau]

I do not believe it is our job, or possible to love someone to heaven. Jesus sufficiently did that on the cross. He worked something out there. We need to look at that act and understand that even in our open mindedness even in our preaching even in our judging and negating of other humans what we understand as truth is not what God comprehends as truth.

One of the primary themes of Scripture is love of
God and love of neighbor. All of the prophets preached
this message and Jesus confirmed it in the law of
love. We are all working out our salvation in trembling as
St Paul wrote.

I am not advocating judging or condemnimg
anyone. At the same time we can never support
anyone who is steeped in sin. We must hate the sin
While loving the sinner.

And what better way is there to love than to love
someonecall the way to heaven. That is how I love
My wife and kids.

 

[PompousMaximus]

Lord knows why you answered a post addressed to someone else.

Never mind…

So what happened to the title of Cathar that was next to your name?

Did you ‘murder’ yourself?

Or maybe you’ve given up on the time travel and are now going to stay amongst us?

The one who has Cathar next to his name is I young John. And as far as the murdering goes I am perfectly alive and all types of heretical traditions can survive mass extinction. I do believe there was quite a lot of murdering early Christians if I remember correctly, so our roots have some similarities. And btw I agree with Lux you are some what of a bully.

Just a question. Why are you so worried about lobbyists, don’t you think Jesus will take care of it. Pray, Hope, and Don’t Worry - Pio

 

[PompousMaximus]

One of the primary themes of Scripture is love of
God and love of neighbor. All of the prophets preached
this message and Jesus confirmed it in the law of
love. We are all working out our salvation in trembling as
St Paul wrote.

I am not advocating judging or condemnimg
anyone. At the same time we can never support
anyone who is steeped in sin. We must hate the sin
While loving the sinner.

And what better way is there to love than to love
someonecall the way to heaven. That is how I love
My wife and kids.

But no matter how much you love someone it will not get them to heaven. I will always try to love my wife and family to heaven, but understand that I fall far short of what Jesus did for us on that cross, regardless.

I am glad you are not condemning anyone or judging God surely appreciates it.

 

[Deus_lo_vult]

But no matter how much you love someone it will not get them to heaven. I will always try to love my wife and family to heaven, but understand that I fall far short of what Jesus did for us on that cross, regardless.

I am glad you are not condemning anyone or judging God surely appreciates it.

Well, Catholics have always understood Christ’s offer of salvation to be a cooperative one, that is, Christians receive more or less unmerited grace, but they have to cooperate with that grace by doing good works; God will never force salvation upon us. Indeed, He does ask that we do what we can, in our capacity as humans, to earn it. One of the ways we cooperate in the divine plan is encouraging good deeds and discouraging evil ones.

Evil deeds can result in damnation, and the loving Christian does not wish that for anyone; but he does recognize that salvation does come at a cost.

 

[kbwall]

They want their disordered desires and actions to be mainstreamed, normalized, and approved of.

Pretty much this. Sadly, in today’s world, it is highly unacceptable to even acknowledge homosexuality as a sin. Even the attitude of “love the sinner, hate the sin” is becoming unpopular.

The other day, somebody told how cool it was that a certain church was gay friendly, and it had a rainbow Jesus fish. How disgusting. It’s alright to accept sinners, but not to actively encourage them. All under the banner of being “more tolerant”.

 

[InSearchofGrace]

The one who has Cathar next to his name is I young John. And as far as the murdering goes I am perfectly alive and all types of heretical traditions can survive mass extinction. I do believe there was quite a lot of murdering early Christians if I remember correctly, so our roots have some similarities. And btw I agree with Lux you are some what of a bully.

Just a question. Why are you so worried about lobbyists, don’t you think Jesus will take care of it. Pray, Hope, and Don’t Worry - Pio

So you identify with a heretical tradition that survived somehow? A heresy which has the tradition that is anti-Pope, against the trinitarian concept and the divinity of Jesus? And now, in the name of charity, will forsake truth and have tolerance for the agenda of homosexualists?

This forum attracts practicing and promoters of homosexuality (PPH) for a reason: to convince Catholics that Church teaching on homosexuality is error, even as Scripture, Tradition, and Natural Law unequivocally support the teaching that homosexual acts are sinful. The teaching will remain unchanged notwithstanding unrelenting arguments advanced by by PPH.

These group of people do not find serious issues with homosexuality being normalized and would go along with SS"M" and adoption of children by homosexual couples. The concern for this kind of lobbying should be everybody’s concern, not just John’s and those of many CAF members including myself.

The thread, which is about what homosexuals really want since they are not persecuted or discriminated, not in ways that Veritas and you might think, by Catholics who uphold their faith in this forum. Case in point is mitex in his posts – he has nothing to fear in the company of Catholics while attending Mass at Church. If he does not call attention with his choice of clothing and demeanor in a solemn setting, I doubt that he would hear anything or get stares from anyone. The goading of wellok is counterproductive.

Being a new member, with posts under 5 in the forum, you likely have not read the core of John’s beliefs. Don’t mistake his zeal to uphold Catholic teaching with bullying, a word like bigotry or homophobia, words invariably used as debate enders, rather than getting to the essence of the argument. In the words of wisdom by Bishop Sheen, Christian love bears evil but does not tolerate it. And that tolerance is a virtue of a man who lack convictions, words reflecting great insight by G.K. Chesterson.
,

 

[Deus_lo_vult]

Pretty much this. Sadly, in today’s world, it is highly unacceptable to even acknowledge homosexuality as a sin. Even the attitude of “love the sinner, hate the sin” is becoming unpopular.

The other day, somebody told how cool it was that a certain church was gay friendly, and it had a rainbow Jesus fish. How disgusting. It’s alright to accept sinners, but not to actively encourage them. All under the banner of being “more tolerant”.

It’s ironic, isn’t it? The word “tolerant” confesses the sin and weakness of homosexual behavior, because ‘tolerance’ doesn’t apply to something objectively good.

Tolerance in and of itself is not a virtue because it always depends upon context. Conversely, intolerance is not implicity evil; it can be quite a good attitude to have. I’m happy to say that I’m intolerant of murder, or dishonesty, for example. I think most other people would be as well.

 

[PompousMaximus]

Well, Catholics have always understood Christ’s offer of salvation to be a cooperative one, that is, Christians receive more or less unmerited grace, but they have to cooperate with that grace by doing good works; God will never force salvation upon us. Indeed, He does ask that we do what we can, in our capacity as humans, to earn it. One of the ways we cooperate in the divine plan is encouraging good deeds and discouraging evil ones.

Evil deeds can result in damnation, and the loving Christian does not wish that for anyone; but he does recognize that salvation does come at a cost.

wrong.

 

[Biblepoe]

To the OP:

What is it that they want that they don’t already have? Most the marriage benifits are due towards a family. So why do they want family benifits and what exactly do they want?

In general, they want the same protection under the law that heterosexuals have with their partners. Here is a list of the legal rights and benefits of civil marriage in the US from wikipedia:

Right to benefits while married:
employment assistance and transitional services for spouses of members being separated from military service; continued commissary privileges
per diem payment to spouse for federal civil service employees when relocating
Indian Health Service care for spouses of Native Americans (in some circumstances)
sponsor husband/wife for immigration benefits
Larger benefits under some programs if married, including:
veteran’s disability
Supplemental Security Income
disability payments for federal employees
medicaid
property tax exemption for homes of totally disabled veterans
income tax deductions, credits, rates exemption, and estimates
wages of an employee working for one’s spouse are exempt from federal unemployment tax[3]
Joint and family-related rights:
joint filing of bankruptcy permitted
joint parenting rights, such as access to children’s school records
family visitation rights for the spouse and non-biological children, such as to visit a spouse in a hospital or prison
next-of-kin status for emergency medical decisions or filing wrongful death claims
custodial rights to children, shared property, child support, and alimony after divorce
domestic violence intervention
access to “family only” services, such as reduced rate memberships to clubs & organizations or residency in certain neighborhoods
Preferential hiring for spouses of veterans in government jobs
Tax-free transfer of property between spouses (including on death) and exemption from “due-on-sale” clauses.
Special consideration to spouses of citizens and resident aliens
Threats against spouses of various federal employees is a federal crime
Right to continue living on land purchased from spouse by National Park Service when easement granted to spouse
Court notice of probate proceedings
Domestic violence protection orders
Existing homestead lease continuation of rights
Regulation of condominium sales to owner-occupants exemption
Funeral and bereavement leave
Joint adoption and foster care
Joint tax filing
Insurance licenses, coverage, eligibility, and benefits organization of mutual benefits society
Legal status with stepchildren
Making spousal medical decisions
Spousal non-resident tuition deferential waiver
Permission to make funeral arrangements for a deceased spouse, including burial or cremation
Right of survivorship of custodial trust
Right to change surname upon marriage
Right to enter into prenuptial agreement
Right to inheritance of property
Spousal privilege in court cases (the marital confidences privilege and the spousal testimonial privilege)
For those divorced or widowed, the right to many of ex- or late spouse’s benefits, including:
Social Security pension
veteran’s pensions, indemnity compensation for service-connected deaths, medical care, and nursing home care, right to burial in veterans’ cemeteries, educational assistance, and housing
survivor benefits for federal employees
survivor benefits for spouses of longshoremen, harbor workers, railroad workers
additional benefits to spouses of coal miners who die of black lung disease
$100,000 to spouse of any public safety officer killed in the line of duty
continuation of employer-sponsored health benefits
renewal and termination rights to spouse’s copyrights on death of spouse
continued water rights of spouse in some circumstances
payment of wages and workers compensation benefits after worker death
making, revoking, and objecting to post-mortem anatomical gifts

Obviously, there are many benefit to having one’s relationship legally considered a marriage.

 

[PompousMaximus]

So you identify with a heretical tradition that survived somehow? A heresy which has the tradition that is anti-Pope, against the trinitarian concept and the divinity of Jesus? And now, in the name of charity, will forsake truth and have tolerance for the agenda of homosexualists?

This forum attracts practicing and promoters of homosexuality (PPH) for a reason: to convince Catholics that Church teaching on homosexuality is error, even as Scripture, Tradition, and Natural Law unequivocally support the teaching that homosexual acts are sinful. The teaching will remain unchanged notwithstanding unrelenting arguments advanced by by PPH.

These group of people do not find serious issues with homosexuality being normalized and would go along with SS"M" and adoption of children by homosexual couples. The concern for this kind of lobbying should be everybody’s concern, not just John’s and those of many CAF members including myself.

The thread, which is about what homosexuals really want since they are not persecuted or discriminated, not in ways that Veritas and you might think, by Catholics who uphold their faith in this forum. Case in point is mitex in his posts – he has nothing to fear in the company of Catholics while attending Mass at Church. If he does not call attention with his choice of clothing and demeanor in a solemn setting, I doubt that he would hear anything or get stares from anyone. The goading of wellok is counterproductive.

Being a new member, with posts under 5 in the forum, you likely have not read the core of John’s beliefs. Don’t mistake his zeal to uphold Catholic teaching with bullying, a word like bigotry or homophobia, words invariably used as debate enders, rather than getting to the essence of the argument. In the words of wisdom by Bishop Sheen, Christian love bears evil but does not tolerate it. And that tolerance is a virtue of a man who lack convictions, words reflecting great insight by G.K. Chesterson.
,

But on a daily and I say daily basis I find in most Christian churches a general hatred of homosexuals. (Call it what you will)I am a Christian former Catholic and this forum helped to drive me away. It is the very zeal that did the driving. Your zeal, to say things thinking that our Lord and our God wants you to say it. It is no better than nationalism, mine is better than yours. It will fail every time. The zeal to end abortion is wonderful but your zeal to end all war… where is it? It is the same point that needs to be made with the anti-homosexual point of view. You sanctify all life, but if that person is not living their life as you think God wants them to, you publicly decry them. It is none of your business.

 

[Deus_lo_vult]

wrong.

How so? Because you say so? I’m speaking from a Catholic perspective; one with which you cannot claim any authority, apparently.

 

[Deus_lo_vult]

But on a daily and I say daily basis I find in most Christian churches a general hatred of homosexuals. (Call it what you will)I am a Christian former Catholic and this forum helped to drive me away. It is the very zeal that did the driving. Your zeal, to say things thinking that our Lord and our God wants you to say it. It is no better than nationalism, mine is better than yours. It will fail every time. The zeal to end abortion is wonderful but your zeal to end all war… where is it? It is the same point that needs to be made with the anti-homosexual point of view. You sanctify all life, but if that person is not living their life as you think God wants them to, you publicly decry them. It is none of your business.

Well, how do you respond to Catholics who say that what we believe/preach is none of YOUR business? It’s an endless, circular argument.

If no one should ever publicly criticize forms of behavior, that means we’re all entitled to go about our business without suffering anyone to utter a discouraging word. I sure hope you can remain consistent…by your standard our Catholic faith is none of your business and we shouldn’t be burdened by your negative criticisms.

 

[michelleds]

But on a daily and I say daily basis I find in most Christian churches a general hatred of homosexuals. (Call it what you will)I am a Christian former Catholic and this forum helped to drive me away. It is the very zeal that did the driving. Your zeal, to say things thinking that our Lord and our God wants you to say it. It is no better than nationalism, mine is better than yours. It will fail every time. The zeal to end abortion is wonderful but your zeal to end all war… where is it? It is the same point that needs to be made with the anti-homosexual point of view. You sanctify all life, but if that person is not living their life as you think God wants them to, you publicly decry them. It is none of your business.

Pompous much?

if this forum “drove you away” from the fullness of faith, then you’ve given the anonymous internet way more influence over your daily life than is healthy or normal.

“Hatred”? really? “hatred”? you’ve apparently never actually met “hatred” or you wouldn’t accuse the Catholic Church of a general hatred of homosexuals.

finally, have you heard the word or concept of “apostolate”? we don’t all have to constantly fight every single battle every single day. my sister in Christ can be fighting X while I’m fighting Y and we’re both doing good.

 

[PompousMaximus]

How so? Because you say so? I’m speaking from a Catholic perspective; one with which you cannot claim any authority, apparently.

Yes Catholic perspective but not a completely Christian perspective. and your perspective is definitely more narrow than what Christ’s vision for our Church on earth was.

I was Catholic for 31 years of my life. That was plenty. I do not mean disrespect but your authority is not God given just because you are Catholic.

 

[FaithBuild18]

They want their disordered desires and actions to be mainstreamed, normalized, and approved of.

This.

 

[PompousMaximus]

Pompous much?

if this forum “drove you away” from the fullness of faith, then you’ve given the anonymous internet way more influence over your daily life than is healthy or normal.

“Hatred”? really? “hatred”? you’ve apparently never actually met “hatred” or you wouldn’t accuse the Catholic Church of a general hatred of homosexuals.

finally, have you heard the word or concept of “apostolate”? we don’t all have to constantly fight every single battle every single day. my sister in Christ can be fighting X while I’m fighting Y and we’re both doing good.

I am pompous. Thats my name! Yes I have heard that word never cared what it meant. Christ is larger than the Catholic Church, therefore He exists outside of it, and fullness of Faith exists outside of it.

 

[Deus_lo_vult]

Yes Catholic perspective but not a completely Christian perspective. and your perspective is definitely more narrow than what Christ’s vision for our Church on earth was.

I was Catholic for 31 years of my life. That was plenty. I do not mean disrespect but your authority is not God given just because you are Catholic.

Of course it’s not MY authority; I teach according to that which has been handed down to me by the authority of the apostolic successors- the Magisterium, whose predecessors received their authority from God through the Holy Spirit, whom Christ promised would always remain with the Church. However, God’s Church is one, and undivided. It’s the fractional Christian churches that are failing Christ’s will (I’d hardly call it a vision, because the word vision implies that Christ’s will might not necessarily be fulfilled) I can quote you the Church Fathers if you have any doubts about the authentically Christian theological basis of my beliefs.

Your vision of what Christendom should emulate is interesting but it has no basis in any tradition of the first Christians.

 

[PompousMaximus]

Of course it’s not MY authority; I teach according to that which has been handed down to me by the authority of the apostolic successors- the Magisterium. However, God’s Church is one, and undivided. It’s the fractional Christian churches that are failing Christ’s will (I’d hardly call it a vision, because the word vision implies that Christ’s will might not necessarily be fulfilled) I can quote you the Church Fathers if you have any doubts about the authentically Christian theological basis.

Quote the church fathers then. Where does it say we should marginalize everyone who does not follow the life that we feel they should lead?

 

[PompousMaximus]

Of course it’s not MY authority; I teach according to that which has been handed down to me by the authority of the apostolic successors- the Magisterium, whose predecessors received their authority from God through the Holy Spirit, whom Christ promised would always remain with the Church. However, God’s Church is one, and undivided. It’s the fractional Christian churches that are failing Christ’s will (I’d hardly call it a vision, because the word vision implies that Christ’s will might not necessarily be fulfilled) I can quote you the Church Fathers if you have any doubts about the authentically Christian theological basis of my beliefs.

Your vision of what Christendom should emulate is interesting but it has no basis in any tradition of the first Christians.

And I have to point out of course Christ’s will for us will be fulfilled, but by him. Not us.

 

[mitex]

Can we just all agree that because I am celibate in accordance to the teachings of the Church and as long as I am not causing scandal I have the right to be accepted, affirmed, and nourished as a full member of the Church?