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dennisknapp
Guest
This is something I have always wondered. What is it with liberal Catholics and the “Spirit” of Vatican II?
Peace
Peace
What is it with liberal Catholics and the "Spirit" of Vatican II?
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M
MrS
Guest
They understand that to “participate fully” in the liturgy means that they should control, re-design, manipulate, and dictate what we know see as abuses-turned-norms.
Active participation, to them, is only visible,… not as it was intended - to be spiritual and reverent.
Active participation, to them, is only visible,… not as it was intended - to be spiritual and reverent.
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WanderAimlessly
Guest
If means that they think they are above the Pope and Magisterium when it comes to the Church.
PF
PF
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SummaTheo
Guest
:yup: :yup: :yup: Hit the nail on the head.
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ncjohn
Guest
With all due respect to both of you, these are the kinds of unkind and untrue statements that continue to fuel the division and inability of Catholics from both sides to even talk to each other much less work together.
While I don’t doubt that there may in fact be people who fit the descriptions that you are throwing out here with broad brushes, I know very few people that fit those charicatures. Most of the devoted Catholics who follow the visions proposed by V2 are exactly the opposite of what you are portraying here.
If anything, we are LESS concerned with the visible. Those I know primarily go by a “live and let live” on most of these issues, and only even get involved in the fray because “traditionalists” want to make an issue of portraying people as irreverent, impious, or “less Catholic” for holding hands during the Our Father or not wanting to go back to Latin masses for example. From “our” side, it is the “traditionalists” who are focused on the external and visible.
Further, the V2 people I know and associate with are pious, devout, and committed Catholics who are genuinely trying to live out the visions of V2. They are committed to the social justice issues while not sacrificing their prayer life. They are committed to living the gospel call to care for the “least of their brothers.”
As to thinking they are above the Pope or the Magesterium, I would suggest you take a look at some of the threads here and see to whom that might apply. It is traditionalists that try to say that holding hands or using the “orans” position are unacceptable, though the Pope and magesterium have taken no such position. It is traditionalists who are saying that “contemporary praise” music is unacceptable in Mass, though the Pope and Magesterium have taken no such position. It is traditionalists who are making claims that people are “not Catholic” because they struggle with some teachings, yet the teaching authority of the Church says exactly the opposite.
I am not going to tar all traditionalists with this brush, as it would be just as unfair as the statements made about V2 Catholics. Nor am I going to say that all V2 Catholics are in the same mold as what I have described from my experience. The fact is that we’re all frail, sinful human beings who need each other in the Body of Christ.
When it’s all said and done, we need the conservaitve to protect and defend the purity of the faith. We also need to “liberal” to help promote the vision of how to live out that faith. We need the prayers and devotion of both to be able to help each other carry our crosses and combine them into one cross that Jesus can help us all carry.
We need to always keep in mind that we are one Body with different gifts. Just as the eye cannot cast aside the ear, the traditionalist cannot cast aside the gifts of those committed to the beautiful vision put forth by V2. We are all brothers and sisters, children of the same loving God. This is one place where family bickering doesn’t belong.
Peace to all,
M
MSGirl
Guest
ncjohn,
I have been lurking on this forum for a long time. You have said exactly what I have been trying to put into words for a long time.
I have multiple sclerosis and it has played havoc with my cognitive ability in being able to put together a coherent sentence.
Thanks for the help!
Peace,
MSGirl
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netmilsmom
Guest
And so are you saying that this is exclusive to the V2 people? That traditionalists do not know how to “live the faith”?
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Dr.Bombay
Guest
Just what is this “beautifil vision” put forth by V2?
Something like…
and
So glad to see you’re jumping on the Holy Spirit inspired Latin/Gregorian Chant bandwagon, John. Perhaps if we can get more Catholics to do so, we’ll truly begin to see the “Spirit of Vatican II” being lived out in our parishes. :tiphat:
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ncjohn
Guest
netmil(name removed by moderator):
I have found however within the parish I no longer attend, that the trend is much more toward personal piety than social justice issues. In that parish, adoration and the rosary are abundantly practiced, which is wonderful. The entire peace and justice ministry however has been dismantled or neglected to a point where there is no longer any call there to anything outside ourselves.
There are a select few that are called to be “prayer warriors” as their almost exclusive calling, but that is not true for most of us. IMHO, the bulk of us are called to prayer as the avenue to discover what action God is calling us to. It can’t be just about me and Jesus. It has to be about us and Jesus.
As I said, it takes all of our gifts working together to be the Body of Christ. I’m not elevating one over the other in any way, and my point was that I find it hurtful when either side lapses into finger-pointing and divisiveness in feeling superior.
Peace,
Absolutely not saying that.
I have found however within the parish I no longer attend, that the trend is much more toward personal piety than social justice issues. In that parish, adoration and the rosary are abundantly practiced, which is wonderful. The entire peace and justice ministry however has been dismantled or neglected to a point where there is no longer any call there to anything outside ourselves.
There are a select few that are called to be “prayer warriors” as their almost exclusive calling, but that is not true for most of us. IMHO, the bulk of us are called to prayer as the avenue to discover what action God is calling us to. It can’t be just about me and Jesus. It has to be about us and Jesus.
As I said, it takes all of our gifts working together to be the Body of Christ. I’m not elevating one over the other in any way, and my point was that I find it hurtful when either side lapses into finger-pointing and divisiveness in feeling superior.
Peace,
D
Dr.Bombay
Guest
Perhaps that’s because in most parishes the “peace and justice ministry” is nothing but a cover that radicals use to promote the Democrat Party platform under the guise of Catholicism.
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Brendan
Guest
NCJohn
What is your parish doing to comply with this instruction from Vatican II.
This is the very directive that allows for a liturgy in the Vernacular
*SACROSANCTUM CONCILIUM *
What steps are taken at your parish to ensure this? What instruction is provided to comply with Vatican II?
What is your parish doing to comply with this instruction from Vatican II.
This is the very directive that allows for a liturgy in the Vernacular
*SACROSANCTUM CONCILIUM *
Vatican II SPECIFICALLY states that while the Liturgy may be allowed in the vernacular, the faithful should also know their responses in Latin as well.
What steps are taken at your parish to ensure this? What instruction is provided to comply with Vatican II?
T
Tantum_ergo
Guest
Another item: One poster says that “from my perspective, it is the traditionalists who are making the big deal of hand holding.” Now that may sound as though it is the traditionalists “over focusing” until you realize that the traditionalists in this case have been quite literally forced into a defensive position.
Whenever you get put into a “defensive” position, you are automatically in a “weaker” position.
The fact is that 40 years ago there was no, NO hand-holding at the Our Father. 30 years ago, it began to surface here and there. Twenty years ago it was a sizeable minority. Ten years ago it was a noticeable majority. And today, you can practically count on one hand the number of places that do NOT have it, or the number of people who have not been exposed to it in one of their parishes.
So it is now seen as an established–an, if you will, “traditional practice” for those who want to keep it.
Do you not see the irony in those who decry the traditionals’ stance, who want themselves the very same thing, what they have come to consider the “right rite”, the practices that make THEM feel comfortable. . .
yet turn around and in the same breath, castigate “trads” and complain that they are exclusionist, antiprogressive, and, of course, my favorite “anti-person”, elitist and COLD.
I don’t want to label people. I am sure there are plenty of older hand-holders, so it isn’t an “age thing”. I am sure there are plenty of married AND single, regular goers AND “christmas elves and easter bunnies”, rich and poor, Ph.Ds, and GEDs, men and women, who want “progress” just as there are plenty of people in the same categories who want “tradition”. What we do seem to have more of in the “progressive” category though is the PCC–politically correct Catholic, but this I feel is not related to the Church but to society as a whole. When one’s SCHOOLS, one’s COMMUNITIES, one’s coworkers, one’s newspapers, TV, and magazines ALL are bleating the PC message (which BTW like so many other things started out with a solid kernel of positivity but quickly morphed into an “US versus THEM” tightly knit schema whereby one group demonizes another group based on ONE thing by automatically assuming that the ONE thing is hand-in-glove with every moral evil in the world), it sure can trickle down into every facet of a person’s life, church included.
Have you noticed how few people can actually DISCUSS any given point in a balanced way?
People skim through words, assume the worst, “pick apart”, misinterpret, and finally just end up screaming, “you’re a XXXX bigot anyway” and to them, they have just WON THE ARGUMENT and YOU are pond scum.
How sad. One of the reasons I enjoy coming to the forums so much is that more people here DO tend to present things in a balanced way. However, there are still hot button issues where things can degenerate quickly.
I’ll tell you what, when the majority of us can actually DISCUSS things in a balanced way, can acknowledge error graciously, can accept “winning” graciously as well, and can see right through the PCC and follow JC (Someone who was NEVER politically correct Himself) even when it means that we have to give up something we think important and submit in OBEDIENCE TO GOD instead of showing that WE know BETTER than He does. . .then we will have a real unity, and when we do, the WORLD will start to see unity as well. It is a huge responsibility–and just think!! It starts with such LITTLE things. Obedience in little things leads to obedience in greater, and disobedience and pride in little things lead to diabolic disobedience and pride in greater.
Whenever you get put into a “defensive” position, you are automatically in a “weaker” position.
The fact is that 40 years ago there was no, NO hand-holding at the Our Father. 30 years ago, it began to surface here and there. Twenty years ago it was a sizeable minority. Ten years ago it was a noticeable majority. And today, you can practically count on one hand the number of places that do NOT have it, or the number of people who have not been exposed to it in one of their parishes.
So it is now seen as an established–an, if you will, “traditional practice” for those who want to keep it.
Do you not see the irony in those who decry the traditionals’ stance, who want themselves the very same thing, what they have come to consider the “right rite”, the practices that make THEM feel comfortable. . .
yet turn around and in the same breath, castigate “trads” and complain that they are exclusionist, antiprogressive, and, of course, my favorite “anti-person”, elitist and COLD.
I don’t want to label people. I am sure there are plenty of older hand-holders, so it isn’t an “age thing”. I am sure there are plenty of married AND single, regular goers AND “christmas elves and easter bunnies”, rich and poor, Ph.Ds, and GEDs, men and women, who want “progress” just as there are plenty of people in the same categories who want “tradition”. What we do seem to have more of in the “progressive” category though is the PCC–politically correct Catholic, but this I feel is not related to the Church but to society as a whole. When one’s SCHOOLS, one’s COMMUNITIES, one’s coworkers, one’s newspapers, TV, and magazines ALL are bleating the PC message (which BTW like so many other things started out with a solid kernel of positivity but quickly morphed into an “US versus THEM” tightly knit schema whereby one group demonizes another group based on ONE thing by automatically assuming that the ONE thing is hand-in-glove with every moral evil in the world), it sure can trickle down into every facet of a person’s life, church included.
Have you noticed how few people can actually DISCUSS any given point in a balanced way?
People skim through words, assume the worst, “pick apart”, misinterpret, and finally just end up screaming, “you’re a XXXX bigot anyway” and to them, they have just WON THE ARGUMENT and YOU are pond scum.
How sad. One of the reasons I enjoy coming to the forums so much is that more people here DO tend to present things in a balanced way. However, there are still hot button issues where things can degenerate quickly.
I’ll tell you what, when the majority of us can actually DISCUSS things in a balanced way, can acknowledge error graciously, can accept “winning” graciously as well, and can see right through the PCC and follow JC (Someone who was NEVER politically correct Himself) even when it means that we have to give up something we think important and submit in OBEDIENCE TO GOD instead of showing that WE know BETTER than He does. . .then we will have a real unity, and when we do, the WORLD will start to see unity as well. It is a huge responsibility–and just think!! It starts with such LITTLE things. Obedience in little things leads to obedience in greater, and disobedience and pride in little things lead to diabolic disobedience and pride in greater.
M
mjdonnelly
Guest
The problem is mostly with the education level of most Catholics today (present posters excluded of course) and the attitude that everyone’s opinion should be respected.
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netmilsmom
Guest
You are lapsing into finger-pointing and divisiveness yourself, perhaps without even knowing it.
You stated, " We also need to “liberal” to help promote the vision of how to live out that faith."
Why? Because in your experience, you have found what? That in a parish that you belonged to people put personal devotions above what you felt they should be concentrating on.
Maybe, you need to see other parishes where we feed the poor and clothe the naked, as well as have Divine Mercy Wednesdays, Rosaries before Mass and Prayer to St. Michael after. Where we support a school on the Indian Reservation in Northern MI, a parish in Slovakia and Eight Seminarians. We do the Rice Bowls, we do the Shoeboxes to the Needy. Our families on our own time (with many large homeschooling families) totally fixed a convent for a group of nuns moving to our area. I can’t list all the things that my parish does and yet we are more militant to the “Historically Catholic” than I have ever met.
By the same tolken, MY experience with the V2 Catholics was showing up for mass only when they had to, dropping kids off and coming back. Clucking at seniors who did their best to genuflect, but were (OMG!) in their way to get to their seats to socialize. We couldn’t get a volunteer to save our souls and unless we got a batch of donuts out, couldn’t get them to gather all in one place. The V2 Catholics in charge didn’t care that no one understood the sacraments as long as they had a good experience (I was told that at an education meeting), didn’t care that no one wanted the innovations (because that’s how it is or the Diocese said…) or knew that getting a new votive candle holder in the back to make a buck was much more important than those precious metal chalices.
You have a different experience than I. It’s amazing to me that the people who want the Historic Catholic in their mass are sometimes painted with a broad brush as well, but you very Christian, charitable modernists never see yourselves doing it.
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YinYangMom
Guest
May we please stop with the in-house bickering and just come together already…
We have enough trouble from the outside.
Y
YinYangMom
Guest
A group of us and the Fathers of our parish were having a discussion about Vatican II the other day and the way the priests explained the problem was that V2 was distributed to the bishops without any real instruction. Many of the priests were so used to doing things the ‘old way’ for so long they just instituted the changes without ever grasping themselves the purpose of the changes.
They say those priests delegated the task of incorporating the changes to these new lay positions who also did not understand the purpose and intent of the change. They interpreted the instructions their own way and ran with the changes.
The parishioners saw the changes, didn’t know whether they were right or not, and then took the visual messages further by implying doctrine changed as well.
On the other hand, the priests said there were other priests who recognized the value of V2 changes and properly instituted them within their parishes.
As a result, a whole heck of a lot of parishioners for 30 years have been given the wrong teachings, while quite a number received the proper ones.
The vatican learned, as with each revision to the GIRM they have instituted training sessions and documentation explaining why the changes were seen as necessary and what the changes really mean - eliminating the ‘interpretation’ aspect.
Can we please forgive the past administers of the faith and come together so we can focus on re-educating all Catholics to the true meaning of V2? The traditionalists have so much to offer the liberals in understanding the reverence and respect we lost by the abuses…the liberals have so much to offer the traditionalists in becoming true members of ‘family’ while expanding their service to social justice issues. (No, it’s not enough to turn in your money and pray devotions. We really do have to start getting out of our homes, our comfort zones and making the changes in our communities ourselves. Yes, I now there are many on each side who already do this, but we need to get everyone on the same page and both sides can lead by example.)
- - - stepping off the soapbox - - -
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netmilsmom
Guest
Another broad brush. In your experience, the traditionalists do not care about social issues, only turn in money and pray, sit on their couches and do nothing.
Amazing.
O
otm
Guest
Dr. Bombay:
Get off your high horse and read the Gospels. What part of “What you do to the least of these, you do to Me” don’t you get?
Furthermore, it is the liberals who want the government to do all the bending and lifting; doing it on the immediat local level with no support form the government is hardly what I have read in the Democratic Party platform; it seems to me it is a lot closer to Bush’s compassionate conservatism.
It takes guts and humilty to open you own wallet after you’ve paid your taxes, and buy a couple of cans of beans, or several punsd of rice, or a turkey or ham or other staples, and take it to the food bank at your church.
It takes even more humility to take a food basket out to a family. And then it takes humility to deal with the attitude some of theose people have when you deliver it; humility, because you expect them to be gracious and grateful when you bring it, and they act like they are insulted and imposed upon.
The humility part helps you to understand that the only thing they may have left is what little pride hasn’t been completely destroyed, and when they act that way, they are only responding out of the pain of having to admit they have nothing.
Your comments are exactly what ncjohn was saying about conservatives; thank you for proving the point so well.
That is just pure snot blowing, and you know it.
Get off your high horse and read the Gospels. What part of “What you do to the least of these, you do to Me” don’t you get?
Furthermore, it is the liberals who want the government to do all the bending and lifting; doing it on the immediat local level with no support form the government is hardly what I have read in the Democratic Party platform; it seems to me it is a lot closer to Bush’s compassionate conservatism.
It takes guts and humilty to open you own wallet after you’ve paid your taxes, and buy a couple of cans of beans, or several punsd of rice, or a turkey or ham or other staples, and take it to the food bank at your church.
It takes even more humility to take a food basket out to a family. And then it takes humility to deal with the attitude some of theose people have when you deliver it; humility, because you expect them to be gracious and grateful when you bring it, and they act like they are insulted and imposed upon.
The humility part helps you to understand that the only thing they may have left is what little pride hasn’t been completely destroyed, and when they act that way, they are only responding out of the pain of having to admit they have nothing.
Your comments are exactly what ncjohn was saying about conservatives; thank you for proving the point so well.
D
Dr.Bombay
Guest
Pardon me, but liberals have nothing to offer traditionalists in the area of social justice issues. All liberals have to offer in that area are a bunch of tired socialist nostrums like tax increases, redistribution of wealth and increased government programs and power. Which, BTW, completely and conveniently excuses Catholics and every other member of society from any personal responsibility to combat these issues. After all, if Big Government is going to solve all our social ills, why do we need to do anything.
Traditionalists can point to Rerum Novarum as a true exposition of Catholic teaching on social justice issues. Liberals ignore this encyclical, however, since it condemns most of the pet utopian ideas they’ve grown so fond of over the past 40 years.
O
otm
Guest
netmil(name removed by moderator):
What’s the matter - is your consicience giving you a poke?
It amazes me how you can twist what someone else says.
What’s the matter - is your consicience giving you a poke?
- Status