What is it with liberal Catholics and the "Spirit" of Vatican II?

[YinYangMom]

netmil(name removed by moderator):

Another broad brush. In your experience, the traditionalists do not care about social issues, only turn in money and pray, sit on their couches and do nothing.

Amazing.

Maybe I need to point out that people on this forum **are **the choir - from both sides of the fence, Traditionalists and Liberals. Those of us here are already doing what is required of us, and so we have the time to debate issues here with each other.

But those who are not here on these boards - they are the ones I’m referring to for the most part. I think we can acknowledge that much. How many Catholics are there in the U.S.? How many Catholics are active participants of this board? There are many, many more we here need to reach out to.

What I’d like to see is for those of us here to find a way to appreciate each others’ contributions to Catholicism in the U.S. - find a united front that we can take out to our respective parishes/diocese so we can bring the reverence for the Church back to the liberal parishes as well as a well-deserved appreciation toward the Traditionalists for preserving the spirit and from whom we can learn the nuances of showing respect, and take the animosity toward liberals out of the traditional parishes so that they can appreciate some of the ways they’ve learned to put forth Jesus’ call for social justice in the U.S.

I am not speaking about extremes on either end here. And I’m not specifically addressing one person here on the boards from either side of the fence. I am trying to encourage using the resources we have here with the forums to begin the peach here so that we can carry that peace out to the various communities. The bickering here saddens me because it just feels we’re growing further apart instead of closer together and I know Jesus doesn’t want that. He wants us to find a way to live together, respect each other and praise His name.

As for the topic of the thread, as a liberal I’m the first to admit we messed up big time back when V2 was first put forth, but we’ve grown up since then and we are ripe for the reversion necessary. You Traditionalist can do much more good through us if you’d quit condemning us for past behaviors and show us through charity and kindness the way back to the center. I’m not talking about the traditionalists who have always been against V2 or who want to go back to the way it was before. I’m talking about those who understand the value of the pre-V2 disciplines which were meant to be preserved through V2 but were not.

 

[YinYangMom]

palmas85:

If they really wanted to help out why not go all the way. Invite some homeless in to your own home. Use your grocery money, not excess, but your funds to provides food for a poor family. You do without so that they might have. Pay someone elses health care costs, electric bill or rent. Pay out of your own pocket for some kids to attend a good Catholic School etc.

And do it all completely anonymously. No groups, no meetings, no committees, no trophys or plaques, no mention at all, and nobody knowing that you did it, except you, God and maybe the ones you helped.

Hmm… and I know many liberal Catholics who do just that. Who open their homes during Thanksgiving season to those without food or homes, who also drop food off to the Church for the food pantry (can’t very well go up to a stranger’s house and leave bags of groceries there anonymously…people would think it’s poisoned). Several I know, as well as myself, have paid outstanding health bills at the local hospitals, and yeah, it’s been out of my family’s budget. And yes, we’ve done it anonymously to the recipient. Many of these things have to be coordinated and verified by the agencies involved though for legal reasons (not tax, legal).

 

[YinYangMom]

Eileen T:

Whenever I have commented on some innovation in the Liturgy I have been referred to Vatican II. I would then ask where this particular thing was mentioned as I couldn’t remember having read it. If I disagreed and actually quoted from a particular document, the reply I almost aways received was “Well it’s the SPIRIT of Vatican II”

To me refering to the ‘Spirit’ of V2 rather than to the Documents themselves was an excuse to ignore them and make whatever changes they wanted.

I suspect that the ‘Spirit’ of V2 is the one whose name is ‘LEGION’

And that is precisely where the liberals went wrong. They looked to the Spirit, interpreted it their own way and ran with it. The priests in the parish were not instructed by Rome through the Bishops as to what that Spirit really is, and they had a hard enough time grasping the changes themselves that they left a void which the laity filled - to excess.

 

[Eileen_T]

A few years ago we had a Parish Priest who I strongly suspect never bothered to read the Instructions on the Liturgy from Rome

He decided to replace the Creed with other prayers on Sunday (eg a Prayer for Vocations etc) After 3 weeks of this I gave him the GIRM regarding the Creed at Mass. He did not appreciate it.

He also tried getting everybody to join him in the Great Doxology and other things.

Thank God I have shifted to a Parish that has a Latin Mass every Sunday and a priest who is not afraid to teach with authority. He is a holy man who is in love with God.

 

[JSmitty2005]

otm:

Then you might want to let someone like Archbishop Chaput know about that, since he says that it is neither required nor condemned, and suggests that those who wish to hold hands should do so, and those who wish to not do so should not be required to. Particularly, since he seems to always know what the Vatican is saying, including their condemnations.

Okay, this is word for word what a priest told me on AIM:

“The Our Father is only a preparation for Communion. It is not a sign of unity, which it is being taken to be. The genuine sign of unity during the Mass is Communion itself, which holding hands during the Our Father anticipates. It’s like putting the cart before the horse. Also, the sign of reconciliation takes place at the sign of peace, which comes after the Our Father, and again, we are expessing unity before peace and reconciliation have taken place.
It is liturgically misplaced. Of course, it makes people “feel good” which of course is what it’s all about these days. It’s true there is no “official” condemnation of the practice, but that doesn’t mean that it isn’t wrong liturgically.”

 

[SFH]

When people can’t justify their position by what the document says, they tend to argue that their position is justified by the “spirit” of the document. For example, when pro-abortion advocates were unable to find any support in the text of the Constitution for their position, they argued that the “spirit” of the Constitution or a “penumbra” of rights emanated from the document and justified their position.

Similarly, when liturgists were unable to find any statement in Vatican II mandating the elimination of Latin from the liturgy (in fact, the only mandate with respect to Latin that ever came out of Vatican II was that Latin be maintained in the liturgy and the laity taught their parts), they argued that the “spirit” of Vatican II required the elimination of Latin. Sadly, they made the same argument with respect to Gregorian chant, classic Catholic hymns, the veneration of saints, the Sacrament of Confession, etc.

The good news is that they’re all dying off and us young pups comin’ up want to recover our lost heritage. I’d give the current liturgy and music another 50 years max.

dennisknapp:

This is something I have always wondered. What is it with liberal Catholics and the “Spirit” of Vatican II?

Peace

 

[JSmitty2005]

SFH:

The good news is that they’re all dying off and us young pups comin’ up want to recover our lost heritage. I’d give the current liturgy and music another 50 years max.

That’s right, us youngins hunger for true Catholicism and not these modernized protestantized ‘reforms.’

 

[ncjohn]

Confiteor:

Maybe we all need to make an attempt, given our particular talents, to make our presence known in both areas…If you’re a spirit of Vatican II Catholic, read the VII documents and you will see Latin is called for in the Mass. Read the Notitiae on the GIRM and you will find holding hands at the Our Father has been condemned by the Vatican. Likewise, if we never miss a daily Mass, pray the Rosary daily, frequent Confession,use NFP, etc but never offer aid to those in need, then we don’t really “get” the Gospel either.

Confiteor, I almost 100% agree with you here. Much of what you say is the point that I, along with several others here have tried to make. The constant references to V2 documents by people who have not read them continues to cause great confusion. I admit I have not read 100% of them, but I’ve read the majority.

One thing I would like to correct though, since I continue to see it mentioned and misquoted, is your reference to the Notitiae as condemning hand holding. Here is the text of the Notitiae:

QUERY 2: In some places there is a current practice whereby those taking part in the Mass **replace the giving of the sign of peace at the deacon’s invitation by holding hands ** during the singing of the Lord’s Prayer. Is this acceptable? REPLY: The prolonged holding of hands is of itself a sign of communion rather than of peace. Further, it is a liturgical gesture introduced spontaneously but on personal initiative; it is not in the rubrics. Nor is there any clear explanation of why the sign of peace at the invitation: should be supplanted in order to bring a different gesture with less meaning into another part of the Mass: the sign of peace is filled with meaning, graciousness, and Christian inspiration. Any substitution for it must be repudiated: Not 11 (1975) 226.

It is very clear from this that what was being condemned, 30 years ago, was the practice of substituting holding hands for the sign of peace, and NOT the holding hands in and of itself.

By the way, I’ve seen a couple mentions of Latin being called for in the Mass, but I’ve not noticed any mention of where in the GIRM this is taken into account or called for. Can someone enlighten me on that one so I can look into it further? Most of the parishes I’m familiar with use it on some regular to sproradic basis, but I had never heard of any general call for it to be used on any specific basis.

When it’s all said and done though, as many here have said, it’s time to combine our talents, our energies, and our gifts for the building up of the Kingdom. There is no superiority in any part of the Body and it takes all of our gifts for the Body to function as it should.

Peace to all,

 

[netmilsmom]

YinYangMom:

What I’d like to see is for those of us here to find a way to appreciate each others’ contributions to Catholicism in the U.S. - find a united front that we can take out to our respective parishes/diocese so we can bring the reverence for the Church back to the liberal parishes as well as a well-deserved appreciation toward the Traditionalists for preserving the spirit and from whom we can learn the nuances of showing respect, and take the animosity toward liberals out of the traditional parishes so that they can appreciate some of the ways they’ve learned to put forth Jesus’ call for social justice in the U.S.

Really, do you believe that Catholics in the past never “fed the hungry” or “clothed the naked”? Is it really your opinion that before V2 we only thought of ourselves and we needed the “liberals” to show us Jesus’ call for “social justice”? Where exactly did the nuns and priests who worked in the innercities and third world countries come into that equation and the parishes that supported them?
I don’t know, maybe you don’t understand that in the past, Catholic women were raising large families. My Grandmother had babies in her home for 24 years. (she actually died before her last child was out of the house) The only way that she could help with Social Injustice was to throw money at it.
One of the “pluses” of having no vocations and birth control is that people have the time and position to work for Social Justice, or at least what liberals think we should be working on.

As for the topic of the thread, as a liberal I’m the first to admit we messed up big time back when V2 was first put forth, but we’ve grown up since then and we are ripe for the reversion necessary. You Traditionalist can do much more good through us if you’d quit condemning us for past behaviors and show us through charity and kindness the way back to the center. I’m not talking about the traditionalists who have always been against V2 or who want to go back to the way it was before. I’m talking about those who understand the value of the pre-V2 disciplines which were meant to be preserved through V2 but were not.

And how about the Moderists who are continuing to push their agenda’s today? We get clucked at, laughed at and called less than Christian by these people. We should find the common ground, as long as it is the ground they stand on.

 

[JSmitty2005]

Another thing that I just thought of that was never supposed to be abandoned (but somehow was) is abstaining from meat on Fridays. The only thing that was changed is that now we’re given an option to abstain from meat or perform some sort of charitable deed. Penance, however, is contrary to the happy, feel-good ‘spirit of the council.’

 

[ncjohn]

palmas85:

Sad to say, most of the social justice types that I have run into, and believe me I run into a lot, seem more concerned with their own feelings than in doing anuthing positive. Helping out at a food line, delivering pre packaged meals to the elderly or giving a couple of dollars to a homeless person doesn’t really make any difference in the scheme of things. Sitting around in a committee deciding how to help the poor is usually a big waste of time.

If they really wanted to help out why not go all the way. Invite some homeless in to your own home. Use your grocery money, not excess, but your funds to provides food for a poor family. You do without so that they might have. Pay someone elses health care costs, electric bill or rent. Pay out of your own pocket for some kids to attend a good Catholic School etc.

And do it all completely anonymously. No groups, no meetings, no committees, no trophys or plaques, no mention at all, and nobody knowing that you did it, except you, God and maybe the ones you helped.

Then my opinion of the majority of the Social Justice crowd will change, and maybe just maybe some good will actually be acomplished.

Actually Palmas, yeah, we do those things. I’m not going to sit here and brag or try to make myself seem holy or anything since I’m just doing what the gospel calls me to do.

And believe it or not, even helping do prepackaged meals, or helping in a food line, or giving a few dollars to some homeless person does help. Do you not do any of these things, or feel any of them to be worth your time? I had read you for having a much bigger heart than that.

No, none of us are going to change the world, but any of us can change the world for one or two people. It’s kind of the “Pay it forward” concept. Further, when you do it you model it for others by being the face of Christ, just as St Francis did. It takes all of us doing our part to make a change. We aren’t allowed to just sit back and figure that “someone else” will take care of it.

Peace,

 

[netmilsmom]

ncjohn:

QUERY 2: In some places there is a current practice whereby those taking part in the Mass **replace the giving of the sign of peace at the deacon’s invitation by holding hands ** during the singing of the Lord’s Prayer. Is this acceptable? REPLY: The prolonged holding of hands is of itself a sign of communion rather than of peace. Further, it is a liturgical gesture introduced spontaneously but on personal initiative; it is not in the rubrics. Nor is there any clear explanation of why the sign of peace at the invitation: should be supplanted in order to bring a different gesture with less meaning into another part of the Mass: the sign of peace is filled with meaning, graciousness, and Christian inspiration. Any substitution for it must be repudiated: Not 11 (1975) 226.

It is very clear from this that what was being condemned, 30 years ago, was the practice of substituting holding hands for the sign of peace, and NOT the holding hands in and of itself.

It is very clear to me, as well as Jimmy Akin who also quotes this line, that prolonged holding of hands is a sign of communion and therefore not appropriate in the liturgy. ( In 1975, Holding Hands to pray was so foreign in the Mass that it was being used to REPLACE something). It has been stated by the Vatican that the focus should be Vertical and not Horizontal.
If it is not in the liturgy, it is not to be added to the liturgy. Holding Hands, waving arms, laying prostrate, none are appropriate for the liturgy.
Personally, I would have less of a problem with this innovation if anyone could show me a Vatican document directing the laity to hold hands at any time.
And I also have to add a Big Thank YOU Dear Lord that I am now in a parish that does not add innovations to the liturgy.

 

[ncjohn]

netmil(name removed by moderator):

And how about the Moderists who are continuing to push their agenda’s today? We get clucked at, laughed at and called less than Christian by these people. We should find the common ground, as long as it is the ground they stand on.

Net, can I make a final closing comments from my side?

First, I apologize personally for apparently not being clear in what I said to a point where you took my meaning to be that I felt like traditionalists in general don’t contribute to social justice. I know that that is not true and tried to make it clear that it was only a trend I have seen in my local circumstances. From everything you’ve told me about your parish, it seems like a model parish, much as I consider mine to be, and I was certainly not trying to imply that there aren’t many parishes like that. My only comment was that “in general” there seems to be a trend toward the traditionalists returning more to personal piety and back to the idea of the religious and missionaries doing the social justice work the way it was pre-V2 (as you noted at the beginning of your post). I have seen that mentioned within the “conservative” literature also, so since it confirmed my own experience, I considered it at least a reasonable conclusion. I would hope we’ve had enough discussions for you to know I harbor no sense of superiority and seek only unity of effort from all sides.

I also want to say I agree with the part of your post I quoted above, but since YinYangMom’s plea was to help bring the whole thing back to the center, I’m not sure you were really being fair in acting like she is part of some “modernist” movement trying to destroy the Church. If anything, I see her as also trying to bring us all together in the actual meaning of V2.

Unquestionably some of us are too focused on personal piety; unquestionably some of us are too focused on social action at the expense of prayer life. If we are to live out the full gospel however we need to learn from each other so we can have “both/and” instead of “either/or.” We *must * be one Body for a house divided against itself cannot stand.

Having said all I can imagine I have to say on the issue, I wish you all peace and look forward to working with you for unity.

 

[JOHNYJ]

A Chill, thats what you shoud feel when ever some one uses those words.They are code for an aberant interpretation of Vatican II. Most times the spirit and actuality have nothing to do with each other. Always question any attempt to impose a " spiritof Vat. II idea "

 

[netmilsmom]

ncjohn:

And believe it or not, even helping do prepackaged meals, or helping in a food line, or giving a few dollars to some homeless person does help. Do you not do any of these things, or feel any of them to be worth your time? I had read you for having a much bigger heart than that.

I have two nephews. Born three months apart in 1978.
I raised one.

The older one has a wife and two kids. He works at a Gas Station.
He has 525.00 a month in rent given by the government.
He has 375.00 a month in Food Stamps
All of their health care is Medicaid.
Their older child spent a month in the NICU. They never paid a dime for it.

The younger one (who I raised) has a wife and three boys.
He bought a house at 20 by working three jobs (manager of a movie theatre, cleaning that theater and delivering pizzas) He continues two of them today so his wife can stay home with the boys.
Their middle son spent a month in the NICU. He is five and they are still paying on it today.
They eat hotdogs, meatloaf and Mac & Cheese while the other family is eating Chicken Voila.

The older nephew complains about everything. We gave him a 1993 Grand Am two years ago. He moaned that he had to sink 1800.00 into it.

We gave the other my old van. It had problems too. We have heard nothing but gratitude.

Maybe what the problem is “enabling” instead of “helping”.
Being an selfish traditionalist, I did the home visits, soup kitchens, stuffing gift boxes before kids and will again with them to teach them that giving is not as important as receiving.

But we at some point have to “Teach them to fish.” so they can feed themselves. Otherwise, we just have angry, resentful, hungry people staring at the Lake looking for their meal.

 

[JSmitty2005]

JOHNYJ:

A Chill, thats what you shoud feel when ever some one uses those words.They are code for an aberant interpretation of Vatican II. Most times the spirit and actuality have nothing to do with each other. Always question any attempt to impose a " spiritof Vat. II idea "

You hit the nail on the head!

 

[netmilsmom]

netmil(name removed by moderator):

             *And how about the Moderists who are continuing to push their agenda's today? We get clucked at, laughed at and called less than Christian by these people. We should find the common ground, as long as it is the ground they stand on.*

ncjohn:

I also want to say I agree with the part of your post I quoted above, but since YinYangMom’s plea was to help bring the whole thing back to the center, I’m not sure you were really being fair in acting like she is part of some “modernist” movement trying to destroy the Church. If anything, I see her as also trying to bring us all together in the actual meaning of V2.

I’m sorry John but where in the post above did I state that this lady is part of the modernist movement trying to destroy the church?

Her statement was

YinYangMom:

You Traditionalist can do much more good through us if you’d quit condemning us for past behaviors and show us through charity and kindness the way back to the center

I was stating that traditionalists are not looking at the past but living it today. Note I did not use the word, “you”.

 

[robertaf]

ncjohn:

With all due respect to both of you, these are the kinds of unkind and untrue statements that continue to fuel the division and inability of Catholics from both sides to even talk to each other much less work together.

While I don’t doubt that there may in fact be people who fit the descriptions that you are throwing out here with broad brushes, I know very few people that fit those charicatures. Most of the devoted Catholics who follow the visions proposed by V2 are exactly the opposite of what you are portraying here.

If anything, we are LESS concerned with the visible. Those I know primarily go by a “live and let live” on most of these issues, and only even get involved in the fray because “traditionalists” want to make an issue of portraying people as irreverent, impious, or “less Catholic” for holding hands during the Our Father or not wanting to go back to Latin masses for example. From “our” side, it is the “traditionalists” who are focused on the external and visible.

Further, the V2 people I know and associate with are pious, devout, and committed Catholics who are genuinely trying to live out the visions of V2. They are committed to the social justice issues while not sacrificing their prayer life. They are committed to living the gospel call to care for the “least of their brothers.”

As to thinking they are above the Pope or the Magesterium, I would suggest you take a look at some of the threads here and see to whom that might apply. It is traditionalists that try to say that holding hands or using the “orans” position are unacceptable, though the Pope and magesterium have taken no such position. It is traditionalists who are saying that “contemporary praise” music is unacceptable in Mass, though the Pope and Magesterium have taken no such position. It is traditionalists who are making claims that people are “not Catholic” because they struggle with some teachings, yet the teaching authority of the Church says exactly the opposite.

I am not going to tar all traditionalists with this brush, as it would be just as unfair as the statements made about V2 Catholics. Nor am I going to say that all V2 Catholics are in the same mold as what I have described from my experience. The fact is that we’re all frail, sinful human beings who need each other in the Body of Christ.

When it’s all said and done, we need the conservaitve to protect and defend the purity of the faith. We also need to “liberal” to help promote the vision of how to live out that faith. We need the prayers and devotion of both to be able to help each other carry our crosses and combine them into one cross that Jesus can help us all carry.

We need to always keep in mind that we are one Body with different gifts. Just as the eye cannot cast aside the ear, the traditionalist cannot cast aside the gifts of those committed to the beautiful vision put forth by V2. We are all brothers and sisters, children of the same loving God. This is one place where family bickering doesn’t belong.

Peace to all,

I think this is an excellent post and I agree with you completely.

However, I would suggest you hold your peace, my friend.
There are some here who are so passionate in their belief that they are right, they will do everything possible to put you on the defensive.

Some of them are too young to know what the Pre Vatican II Church was all about. A few are just sour grapes. They can’t get everything they want so the attack the folks who enjoy the present kind of worship.

I am hanging around less and less to witness this stuff.

 

[Dr.Bombay]

ncjohn:

As someone who is left of center on religious views while being right of center on political views, I’m not sure what you are talking about here, as it appears your mixing religious references to traditionalists and political references to liberals. I am addressing the gospel call to take care of the “least of our brothers” and am not addressing any politics or government involvement whatsoever. I am addressing our own individual responsibility to do more than just say “I’ll pray for you” as the way we take care of those brothers. Do I understand you to deny this call?

Negative. I do not deny this call. Of course we have an individual responsibility. What we don’t have is a responsibility to join committees or advocate government taking money from one class of people and giving it to another. Also, prayer is an important component. As much time as I spend around religious people, when confronted with a problem, sometimes the last thing we think to do is pray. Without prayer, nothing we do will succeed ultimately.

ncjohn:

As to traditionalists and Rerum Novarum, I fail to see where it fits in with anything you are talking about. RN specifically addressed as its main points: equitable distribution of property and goods; requiring employers to pay just wages; challenging the rich to give to the poor; support for the rights of unionization; and organizing the state to provide for the poor. All of these contradict the things you state in the next quoted paragraph.

Yes, RN addressed all those things. I’m not sure where I was contradicted since I never claimed it didn’t. RN also condemned usury, unchecked capitalism, government intrusion into the family, class warfare and many other things that a careful reader should be able to see for themselves.

RN also advocates private ownership of property, which socialism assuredly does not…

ncjohn:

BTW, I’m sure you’re aware that JP2 suggested that the ideal form of government would be a modified socialism. It would seem to indicate that a “Sovereign Roman Pontiff” supported some kind of redistribution of wealth…

Reference, please? This sounds like an article in National Review about 15 years ago that ignorantly accused JPII of being “the last socialist.” RN specifically condemned socialism by name. JP lived under socialism of the Nazi and Communist kind. He knows its evils. Perhaps what he advocated was not socialism at all, but something that appears to you to be socialism?

ncjohn:

Be all that as it may, the whole point of my posts was the need for us to work together and stop the divisiveness. I have made no claims that traditionalists don’t get involved in social ministries or that they are uncaring; I only commented on my own experience that I have seen a trend back to the pre-V2 vision where personal piety was paramount and “others” (usually the missionaries and religious) did the physical labor of taking care of the poor.

I know that the V2 documents call for us to join the two. Maybe I’m wrong that Catholics as a whole believe the Church’s teaching in this regard. I’m sure it’s true that many Catholics don’t know the Church’s teaching and that it isn’t really being preached in a lot of places. Thus we have ongoing misunderstandings from both sides about V2 is about and where we’re supposed to be going.

I am also sure that we don’t overcome this by calling each other names or playing superiority games. If we’re going to help bring “thy kingdom come on earth as it is in heaven” to reality, it’s going to take all of us–praying and working together.

Anyone want to join that team?

Peace,

Sure. I’m there.

 

[Dr.Bombay]

otm:

I don’t live in a fantasy world. I just go quietly about working with the social justice group at our church. Your comment about the peace and justice ministry being a cover for radicals is just bull. You paint with a broad brush those who quitely give time, talent and treasure to support the poor. Interestingly, some fo the greates supprot we get is from well to do capitalist Rebulicans. I don’t need your knee-jerk tripe about it being a cover designed to promote the Democratic platform. Rather than a cover for radical politics, it is an implementation of the Gospel commands.

and you might want to read what the Sovereign Pontiffs =- the current one and the last one - have had to say about about capitalism, and about redistribution of wealth. If you had bothered to read, you would know that they have both said that there is an enormous inequality of distribution of wealth, and they have had a good bit to say about accumulation of wealth. Rerum Novarum is not the only writing on the subject.

I don’t, however, use the work I do, nor do the others who work in it whom I have contact with, for a platform for big government, or a cover for promoting the Democratic platform. We just work on getting affordable housing for the poor; food on the table; useable clothing; health emergency funds…

But being that you so soundly and roundly reject the work that the peace and justice groups do, you wouldn’t know of any of that; you just sit in your chair issuing political diatribes about that which you have no experience. some day, you might wnat to get your hands dirty doing something for the poor.

It seems I’m in the presence of a saint. You’ve been gifted with the charisms of reading hearts and bi-locution. Wow! You know all I ever do is sit in my chair issuing diatribes. Can you tell me what I’m wearing? Come on. It’s something pretty.

Attacking unfettered capitalism is quite different than advocating socialism. But then, you know that don’t you? You’re just being disingenous. Nice try.

One more thing…pacifism has never been taught by the Church. It’s been my experience (note: ANECDOTAL) that many peace and justice types advocate total disarmament and claim any spending on the military is immoral. Radicals.