What is it with liberal Catholics and the "Spirit" of Vatican II?

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NCJohn,
You just lost me.
You started off so good, too.

The fact is, the Church should be taking care of the Poor, the orphans and widows, not the Government.

If Catholics would tithe 10% and give alms that would happen.

I, by the way, do not consider myself a Liberal in either my Faith or my politics. I consider myself very Conservative, politically and very Orthodox in my Religion. Yes, indeed I believe in Vatican II and I am even one of those “crazy” Charismaniacs.

I do believe Holy Mother Church is Big, Universal, Diverse and Generous.

We have many worship forms in our Church, and we reach all kinds of folks. That is our commission.

NCJohn, it was only a week ago Father taught on giving to Caesar that which is Caesars and to God that which is Gods.
Jesus taught clearly in the Gospels that we Christians must take care of the poor.
 
Dr. Bombay:
One more thing…pacifism has never been taught by the Church. It’s been my experience (note: ANECDOTAL) that many peace and justice types advocate total disarmament and claim any spending on the military is immoral. Radicals. :rolleyes:
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Pacificism has never been taught by the Church. Catholics are not traditionally pacifists, we are warriors. This is another liberal idea that was brought in by the infamous ‘spirit of vatican ii’ which was anything but holy. All I have to say on the issue of war is this:

“War is an ugly thing, but not the ugliest of things. The decayed and degraded state of moral and patriotic feeling which thinks that nothing is worth war is much worse. The person who has nothing for which he is willing to fight, nothing which is more important than his own personal safety, is a miserable creature and has no chance of being free unless made and kept so by the exertions of better men than himself.” -John Stuart Mill
 
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robertaf:
NCJohn,
You just lost me.
You started off so good, too.

The fact is, the Church should be taking care of the Poor, the orphans and widows, not the Government.

If Catholics would tithe 10% and give alms that would happen.

I, by the way, do not consider myself a Liberal in either my Faith or my politics. I consider myself very Conservative, politically and very Orthodox in my Religion. Yes, indeed I believe in Vatican II and I am even one of those “crazy” Charismaniacs.

I do believe Holy Mother Church is Big, Universal, Diverse and Generous.

We have many worship forms in our Church, and we reach all kinds of folks. That is our commission.

NCJohn, it was only a week ago Father taught on giving to Caesar that which is Caesars and to God that which is Gods.
Jesus taught clearly in the Gospels that we Christians must take care of the poor.
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Yikes! :bigyikes:
I don’t think I ever said anything different than what you’re saying here Roberta. I have been talking about personal responsibilities to the poor according to our gospel calling, and thought I specifically stated in my one response that I was not in any way addressing political or government policies.

I consider myself a mainstream Catholic. I believe there is room for those who feel more traditional, just as there is room for those who enjoy their NO masses in the vernacular, and yes, even holding hands. I believe in charity toward all, with no attempt to force anyone’s personal preferences on any other person. My greatest wish would be for each parish to have enough priests and enough masses to accomodate everyone’s preference and allow each of us to be able to “sample” the beauties of each other’s preferences.

If we can just figure out how to get past the labeling, demonizing and suspicion so we could all work together…I know…I’m sounding like a broken record, but a guy can dream, can’t he?

Peace,
 
I don’t understand what some of you don’t understand about obedience. We are to be obedient to the Church, the Church isn’t supposed to be obedient to us and cater to our preferences!
 
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ncjohn:
Yikes! :bigyikes:
I don’t think I ever said anything different than what you’re saying here Roberta. I have been talking about personal responsibilities to the poor according to our gospel calling, and thought I specifically stated in my one response that I was not in any way addressing political or government policies.

I consider myself a mainstream Catholic. I believe there is room for those who feel more traditional, just as there is room for those who enjoy their NO masses in the vernacular, and yes, even holding hands. I believe in charity toward all, with no attempt to force anyone’s personal preferences on any other person. My greatest wish would be for each parish to have enough priests and enough masses to accomodate everyone’s preference and allow each of us to be able to “sample” the beauties of each other’s preferences.

If we can just figure out how to get past the labeling, demonizing and suspicion so we could all work together…I know…I’m sounding like a broken record, but a guy can dream, can’t he?

Peace,
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Whew,
Ok, I am back in your camp again.

But let me warn you, no, I said NO FAN CLUBS .😉
 
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robertaf:
However, I would suggest you hold your peace, my friend.
There are some here who are so passionate in their belief that they are right, they will do everything possible to put you on the defensive.
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Phew!
Boy are you absolutely right about these type of people.
I’m glad I don’t have to deal with those modernists anymore.🙂

It’s all perspective, isn’t it?
 
netmil(name removed by moderator):
Phew!
Boy are you absolutely right about these type of people.
I’m glad I don’t have to deal with those modernists anymore.🙂

It’s all perspective, isn’t it?
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I am sure we made peace with one another.
I did not mean you but you must admit that what I said is true of some folks.
I do my best to always promote a parish having a Latin Mass along with the other types.
I try to point out that I am in a Diocese and Parish where we do not have much conflict, if any. I have not seen any.
I am truly trying to meet you half way. I will meet you further if that will help.
However, not everyone is like you here. That is the truth.
I also doubt if everyone who loves the “Spirit” of Vatican II is willing to meet you half way. I know people can get hard nosed.
I do not think we need to nor will anything be accomplished by being that way. Neither, from what I read, does our friend, John.
 
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ncjohn:
Actually Palmas, yeah, we do those things. I’m not going to sit here and brag or try to make myself seem holy or anything since I’m just doing what the gospel calls me to do.

And believe it or not, even helping do prepackaged meals, or helping in a food line, or giving a few dollars to some homeless person does help. Do you not do any of these things, or feel any of them to be worth your time? I had read you for having a much bigger heart than that. :confused:

No, none of us are going to change the world, but any of us can change the world for one or two people. It’s kind of the “Pay it forward” concept. Further, when you do it you model it for others by being the face of Christ, just as St Francis did. It takes all of us doing our part to make a change. We aren’t allowed to just sit back and figure that “someone else” will take care of it.

Peace,
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The fact that you responded to the post at all shows that it hit a nerve, as it was supposed to do. Many, I won’t say most, but many people pay lip service to the whole social justice thing, and only do things that other people can see, comment on and heap praise upon. A real ego boost, pretty easy to do and without any real sacrifice.

I don’t know how many times I’ve heard the same praising speeches extolling the selfless devotion and adhering to Catholic ideals that so and so has shown in the pursuit of justice and concern for the poor, the homeless, the destitute, the victims etc. And then so and so, with marked piety and proper humility of course, 👍 soaks up the praise and gratitude. How many would do the same things in the manner I suggested? Privately, with no one seeing or knowing. I’ll bet not many and in fact too too few.

My personal feelings on this issue run very high. As a young boy, due to family situations I would rather not go into, my Mother sisters and I often found ourselves on the street with no where to turn, no where to go, no hope, no nothing… No one helped us except total strangers, people we had never seen before or after. They helped us without a thought of re payment, praise or recognition. To me they represent the epitome of what helping the downtrodden is all about.

When charity is done only in the public view and in search of self fulfillment it totally loses any real substantive value. That was the point of the post.

If anyone was offended by my post I apologize, but that is just the way I see it.

And as to whether I ever have or have not helped anyone, I feel that is between God, them and I. No one else needs to know. 🙂
 
In the Catholic News forum there is a post entitled:
Redemptorist says “ghetto” piety sidelining social justice.

In my lifetime, I have seen that the people who would fall into the “ghetto piety” category, most often than not, are there to help their neighbor in times of need, and do it without calling attention to themselves. They are not out “proclaiming social justice”, but are quietly doing it.

Walking_Home
 
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Walking_Home:
In the Catholic News forum there is a post entitled:
Redemptorist says “ghetto” piety sidelining social justice.

In my lifetime, I have seen that the people who would fall into the “ghetto piety” category, most often than not, are there to help their neighbor in times of need, and do it without calling attention to themselves. They are not out “proclaiming social justice”, but are quietly doing it.

Walking_Home
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I do not know the term “ghetto peity”. I grew up in the poor area of South Central Los Angeles, and know a little bit about the ghetto but do not know the term that you speak of. There are many unsung saints out on the streets, both Catholic and Protestant. When folks minister down there, they don’t ask what church you go to. That is the truth of it. There are also folks who do not go to any Church that ministers, even when they don’t know they are serving God, they just serve those who needs it.

If you want to know the real truth, the non-Catholic Christians do a better job out there than the Catholics do. They do, even in thier own parishes.
I am a lung cancer survivor and my husband is a five way heart bi-pass patient. Neither of us had a single Catholic from our former parish come near us during our surgeries and convelecense. During the surgery for my husband, I had the Pastor from the Vineyard church sitting and praying with me. Folks from the Lutheran Church visited him and brought him flowers. Not a single Catholic from our Parish.
When I had my surgery, Father came to see me and so did the Deacon. They didn’t bother to let the Parish know I was sick. I had visits from the local non-denominational Church.
No one in our parish bothered to see if my 75 year old husband needed help with me.

I learned a lot from that. I learned what Jesus expects of his people. It is all great and good that we have the true Religion. There are times though, when we need to look at ourselves.

When is the last time anyone has visited the sick in the hospital? Checked to see what the family might need? Pray with them when they are frightened? Watch their little ones while they go visit?

Talk is cheap. I doubt if it impresses our Lord.
 
Mz. Roberaf,

What the Redemptorist priest was referring to as “ghetto piety” was the return of older forms of piety or devotionalism. He saw these as a threat to social justice.

As I stated previously, what I saw in the people who practiced these older forms of devotionalism (rosary, etc), it was part of their life with Christ in helping when ever they could.

I am sorry that you had such a bad experience with the Catholic community from you church when you and your husband were ill.

Walking_Home
 
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Walking_Home:
Mz. Roberaf,

What the Redemptorist priest was referring to as “ghetto piety” was the return of older forms of piety or devotionalism. He saw these as a threat to social justice.

As I stated previously, what I saw in the people who practiced these older forms of devotionalism (rosary, etc), it was part of their life with Christ in helping when ever they could.

I am sorry that you had such a bad experience with the Catholic community from you church when you and your husband were ill.

Walking_Home
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I recently began taking on these devotions and practices poo-poo’d by the “Spirit of Vatican II” folks. They were discouraged while I was growing up and made you feel silly if you wanted to practice them. How Catholic and Christ-like is it to feel persecuted by other Catholics for wanting to pray a Rosary, or wanting to show reverence, or have a procession, or adoration, benediction, etc?

Now that I have plowed ahead with the help of an orthodox parish to initiate these things into my life, the graces have flowed. I have never given as much money and time to the Church and the needy as I have since I began this orthodox journey back in May. That’s when I realized that without the devotions and prayer time it gave meaning to Psalm 127:1…

"Unless the LORD build the house, they labor in vain who build. "

Even Mother Theresa took hours of her day for prayer and adoration - without exception. Who could have more work to do than what was on her plate? Any day she could have said there is no time for adoration, or the Rosary because all these people suffer around me, but she kept her discipline and gave the Lord and Blessed Mother their due. It was through the graces of God and the intercession of the BVM that Blessed Mother Theresa was so good at what she did. What greater example of social justice can we have than her and yet she was highly reverent, highly orthodox, and highly prayerful.

Then again, how Christ-like was it for Mother Theresa to get eye-rolls from “Spirit of Vatican II” folks who felt threatened by her example. If I had a dime for every time I saw or read put-downs of her example by other Catholics, I could retire.

When I think of “Spirit of Vatican II” I think of all those people who tried to strip Catholicism of those things that fueled it, in lieu of “feel-good” practices devoid of real sacrifice and discipline required for devotions. Kum-bah-yah time replaced silence in adoration. Of course as long as people get to sing and hold hands constantly, you never have to dive deep into the abyss of the heart where interior change really takes place.
 
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robertaf:
I am sure we made peace with one another.
I did not mean you but you must admit that what I said is true of some folks.
I do my best to always promote a parish having a Latin Mass along with the other types.
I try to point out that I am in a Diocese and Parish where we do not have much conflict, if any. I have not seen any.
I am truly trying to meet you half way. I will meet you further if that will help.
However, not everyone is like you here. That is the truth.
I also doubt if everyone who loves the “Spirit” of Vatican II is willing to meet you half way. I know people can get hard nosed.
I do not think we need to nor will anything be accomplished by being that way. Neither, from what I read, does our friend, John.
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And we have made peace Roberta (and none of this is about you) but what I am trying to point out to John and YinYangMom is with all the sweet Christianity being shown here, they have no idea how insulting they are being.

I think that this is part of the problem.

You know one group of people and I know another.

All the “modernists”, “liberals” what ever you want to call them here are backhandedly stating that if you are into historically Catholic devotions, you therefore are not as into “social issues” as they are.

This is the Christian superiority complex I constantly ran into in the churches of this area.
It’s a “You may be a great Catholic but ‘I’ am a great Christian”
(you may know the Divine Mercy Chaplet, but ‘I’ pray like Jesus,
It’s a one upsmanship)

It put one on the defensive to state ALL the Christian things you do while they patronizingly smile.
I have no need to defend my Christianity, but in all good taste, people need to realize exactly what they are saying.
 
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robertaf:
If you want to know the real truth, the non-Catholic Christians do a better job out there than the Catholics do. They do, even in thier own parishes.
I am a lung cancer survivor and my husband is a five way heart bi-pass patient. Neither of us had a single Catholic from our former parish come near us during our surgeries and convelecense. During the surgery for my husband, I had the Pastor from the Vineyard church sitting and praying with me. Folks from the Lutheran Church visited him and brought him flowers. Not a single Catholic from our Parish.
When I had my surgery, Father came to see me and so did the Deacon. They didn’t bother to let the Parish know I was sick. I had visits from the local non-denominational Church.
No one in our parish bothered to see if my 75 year old husband needed help with me.

I learned a lot from that. I learned what Jesus expects of his people. It is all great and good that we have the true Religion. There are times though, when we need to look at ourselves.

When is the last time anyone has visited the sick in the hospital? Checked to see what the family might need? Pray with them when they are frightened? Watch their little ones while they go visit?

Talk is cheap. I doubt if it impresses our Lord.
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Honestly Roberta, Your Catholic Community sucked and I hope you wrote them a letter when you left.

You would be a perfect addition to our Visitation Committee! These are the people who visit the sick, at home and at the hospital, help the families, clean houses while people are in the hospital, make meals when they come home. (it’s not my calling, i’m the other end, the baby welcoming committee. We catch them as they come in.)

See, this is what a parish can do when they get back to the basics and forgo all that Birth Control garbage. Do you know who does the majortity of this??? Homeschooling families! With more than four kids! We traditional Catholic families can be da bomb!
 
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ncjohn:
Confiteor, I almost 100% agree with you here. Much of what you say is the point that I, along with several others here have tried to make. The constant references to V2 documents by people who have not read them continues to cause great confusion. I admit I have not read 100% of them, but I’ve read the majority.

One thing I would like to correct though, since I continue to see it mentioned and misquoted, is your reference to the Notitiae as condemning hand holding. Here is the text of the Notitiae:

QUERY 2: In some places there is a current practice whereby those taking part in the Mass **replace the giving of the sign of peace at the deacon’s invitation by holding hands ** during the singing of the Lord’s Prayer. Is this acceptable? REPLY: The prolonged holding of hands is of itself a sign of communion rather than of peace. Further, it is a liturgical gesture introduced spontaneously but on personal initiative; it is not in the rubrics. Nor is there any clear explanation of why the sign of peace at the invitation: should be supplanted in order to bring a different gesture with less meaning into another part of the Mass: the sign of peace is filled with meaning, graciousness, and Christian inspiration. Any substitution for it must be repudiated: Not 11 (1975) 226.

It is very clear from this that what was being condemned, 30 years ago, was the practice of substituting holding hands for the sign of peace, and NOT the holding hands in and of itself.

By the way, I’ve seen a couple mentions of Latin being called for in the Mass, but I’ve not noticed any mention of where in the GIRM this is taken into account or called for. Can someone enlighten me on that one so I can look into it further? Most of the parishes I’m familiar with use it on some regular to sproradic basis, but I had never heard of any general call for it to be used on any specific basis.

When it’s all said and done though, as many here have said, it’s time to combine our talents, our energies, and our gifts for the building up of the Kingdom. There is no superiority in any part of the Body and it takes all of our gifts for the Body to function as it should.

Peace to all,
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Dear otm and ncjohn,

For some Catholics, hand holding seems to be symbolic of something that is important to them. It is not, however, meant to be part of the liturgy. John, you mention having read the GIRM and earlier, most of the VII docs. Very impressive! But the GIRM clearly specifies that no additions to the liturgical rite may be added by the laity or the clergy. This includes hand holding which is both an “innovation” and can be alienating and divisive. Given all the other issues in the Church, it is not surprising that pastors and bishops have refrained from discouraging the gesture, but nonetheless, it is out of sync with what we’re supposed to be about at this part of the Mass. Also, the bishops in submitting US adaptations to mass postures for approval deliberately opted to try for approval of the orans position at the Our Father in order to avoid people continuing the hand holding posture. (This request does not appear to have been approved.)

See:

ewtn.com/library/Liturgy/zlitur10.htm

catholicculture.org/docs/doc_view.cfm?recnum=1175

www.litpress.org/PDFs/girm7.pdf

Since you’ve read the Vatican II documents (presumably the one The Constitution on the Liiturgy as well), you read that it meant to preserve Latin: From Sacramentum Concilium :
“Particular law remaining in force, the use of the Latin language is to be preserved in the Latin rites.” (36)

&
“Nevertheless steps should be taken so that the faithful may also be able to say or to sing together in Latin those parts of the Ordinary of the Mass which pertain to them.” (54)

Likewise, if you reread the GIRM, you will see it DOES mention the use of Latin. See section 41:
www.nccbuscc.org/liturgy/current/GIRM.pdf
 
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palmas85:
And as to whether I ever have or have not helped anyone, I feel that is between God, them and I. No one else needs to know. 🙂
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AMEN!!!
 
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Lux_et_veritas:
When I think of “Spirit of Vatican II” I think of all those people who tried to strip Catholicism of those things that fueled it, in lieu of “feel-good” practices devoid of real sacrifice and discipline required for devotions. Kum-bah-yah time replaced silence in adoration. Of course as long as people get to sing and hold hands constantly, you never have to dive deep into the abyss of the heart where interior change really takes place.
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Hi Diane,

I’m not sure where you ran into these things, but it is not something I’ve personally run into before. None of the people I have been associated with throughout the country have ever “pooh-poohed” devotional practices at all. We say rosaries; we are there at adoration; we do Lectio Divina. In short, we are fully cognizant that we need both to be “refreshed” and to spend time just resting in the arms of the living God if we are to be able to discern where He would have us go and have the strength to go there.

It makes me so sad when I hear things like what you are saying here and what I’ve heard from Netmil(name removed by moderator). While Net apparently feels I’m being “superior” and insulting here, I have tried to do exactly the opposite and to make it clear that it takes all of our gifts and that it takes both prayer and action to do God’s will. I can also see though that when you have had the kinds of experiences you describe that it’s going to color one’s perceptions and make one suspicious. As YinYangMom said, there have been some things that have been taken too far, and we as a whole need to be brought gently back to the center.

My only purpose in being at this forum is to promote unity and to try to bring Catholics together in bringing about the “kingdom.” If I have truly said something contrary to that–and not just been “misheard”–then I sincerely apologize as that has never been my intent. I think any review of my posts will show nothing but an attempt to bring people together while giving them some space to communicate with God in their own ways. None of us are “superior” as we are all sinners eternally in need of God’s love and forgiveness, as well as the forgiveness of each other. :o

If I have somehow made someone’s cross heavier rather helping to carry it, I beg their forgiveness and offer myself to that service.

Peace,
 
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ncjohn:
. While Net apparently feels I’m being “superior” and insulting here, I have tried to do exactly the opposite and to make it clear that it takes all of our gifts and that it takes both prayer and action to do God’s will.
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ncjohn:
When it’s all said and done, we need the conservaitve to protect and defend the purity of the faith. We also need to “liberal” to help promote the vision of how to live out that faith
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I’m saying that you don’t see that you are belittling us.

Because “we” are into Historically Catholic devotions we are not walking the Christian walk. We “need” you to show us the way.

We don’t.
 
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