What is it?

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ptisme said:
Which points can you do nothing with?
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I already commented on this earlier.
Again:
ptisme said:
I would say keep it simple:
  1. Ask God to forgive you.
  2. Pray for guidance then listen quietly
  3. Read the Word. New Testment probably better at first
  4. Know that you are one of Gods children and he will always love you and wants you to come home with him
  5. No Catholic can save you. It’s up to you to accept Christ into your life. Once you do that you will have peace
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Points 1, 2, 4, and 5.
 
Lucy107 said:
I deliberately use this form; it’s the assertive communication style, as opposed to an aggressive, passive, or passive-aggressive one.

The aim of making I-messages is to own whatever I say, take responsibility for whatever I feel and say, and not blame others.

Assertiveness isn’t selfishness. In fact, assertiveness is aimed to avoid selfishness.

That then requires a specific doctrinal conviction.
Such as that God loves me, wants to help me, cares about me. I don’t believe any of that.

In one sense, when being assertive, one is taking the whole existential and epistemic burden upon one’s own shoulders. “Letting go and letting God” goes straight against that.

One could “let go and let God” only if one is somehow convinced that God would, will, and does. I don’t have that conviction.
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One thing I’ve noticed:Christians in general seem to be a much more peaceful lot. This world down here is broken. This isn’t our home. Our home is with the father. That’s why hell is so miserable: we are so far from God who provides love. We will always be restless until we’ve come back to Him. You don’t have to have a halo around your head to seek Him out.
 
ptisme said:
One thing I’ve noticed:Christians in general seem to be a much more peaceful lot. This world down here is broken. This isn’t our home. Our home is with the father. That’s why hell is so miserable: we are so far from God who provides love. We will always be restless until we’ve come back to Him. You don’t have to have a halo around your head to seek Him out.
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How does this address anything I’ve said?
 
Lucy107 said:
Do you mean
“What is it that is holding you back from formally joining the Catholic Church?”
  • ?
In my experience, the Catholic Church isn’t particularly open or available to adults who have an interest in Catholicism.

I find that the Catholic Church is very well suited to be born and raised into it. But attempting to join it later is much more difficult.
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I didn’t have any problem. Neither did hundreds of members of this forum. What I would agree with you on, however, is this: In the Protestant churches, about all that is necessary to join a church is to walk down the aisle during an altar call or to fill out a card in the pew and drop it in the collection plate. That’s not much different from a Las Vegas wedding between two people who just met on Friday night.

Catholicism is different in that it views the commitment to joining (and to marriage, btw) as a life-time commitment. This takes preparation and consideration…not something to be rushed.
Sometimes, I feel almost the way a black person would who tries to join an all-white group. There’s the fear “I’m never really going to be one of them” hanging over me.
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When I attend mass, I’ve never had the feeling that I’m carrying a little sign over my head that says “Convert” on it.
I fear that the Catholic Church is such that someone who attempts to join as an adult will never be able to catch up with those who were born and raised in it. And that as such, such an adult will never experience the benefits that those do who were born and raised into it.
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If you read the books written by converts like Scott Hahn, Steven Ray or the accounts in Patrick Madrid’s “Surprised by Truth” volumes 1-3, you will discover that in many respects, your background might actually put you AHEAD of many Catholics - especially in the area of scripture study which Catholics are often not very good at. 👍
I am not opposed to joining the Catholic Church, but I don’t have the faith to ever catch up.
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Not true. You’ll do fine.
 
Randy_Carson said:
Catholicism is different in that it views the commitment to joining (and to marriage, btw) as a life-time commitment. This takes preparation and consideration…not something to be rushed.
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When I get replies like this:
PRmerger said:
I can see that I am in dialogue with someone who can’t understand the very basic principles of common sense.
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whereby this poster has a history of strawmaning my points – What exactly am I supposed to think?

And his example is just one of many. I’m not complaining, behavior like his is nothing special. It’s simply that based on behavior like his, I see no reason to rely that Catholics will be precise in their listening. Some are, some are not. I have to be prepared for the case that they aren’t.

I certainly find that I am being rushed, pushed, coerced under threat of character assasination, and that people aren’t nearly as open-minded and as willing to talk things over as they say they are.
When I attend mass, I’ve never had the feeling that I’m carrying a little sign over my head that says “Convert” on it.
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It seems to me that some posters here, especially Americans, underestimate culture-specific differences.

Being religious in America seems to be quite different than being religious in Europe.
Not true. You’ll do fine.
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And I’m just supposed to believe you can see the future??
 
PJM said:
My dear friend in Christ, thank you for your thoughtful response.🙂

I do hope you did not go to Catholic Confession. If so, it would not have been valid:o
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Thank you for your responses. No, it was not a Catholic Confession. Some Lutheran Pastors offer personal confessions. I went to my churchs Pastor for that.
PJM said:
Catholics do NOT believe that WORKS ALONE can result in salvation:thumbsup:
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It is my understanding that works are required along with faith??
PJM said:
Eph. 4: 1-7 “I therefore, a prisoner for the Lord, beg you to lead a life worthy of the calling to which you have been called, with all lowliness and meekness, with patience, forbearing one another in love, eager to maintain the unity of the Spirit in the bond of peace. There is one body [ONE CHURCH] and one Spirit, just as you were called to the one hope that belongs to your call, one Lord, one faith, [ONLY ONE SET OF TRUE FAITH BELIEFS] one baptism, one God and Father of us all, who is above all and through all and in all. But grace was given to each of us according to the measure of Christ’s gift
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We see one Church as all of Christendom.
PJM said:
As for Justification by faith alone:
This was a recent teaching given birth by Luther in the 16th Century, some 1,500 years AFTER the bible had been written; approved and used even by Luther himself. The changes were made in order to “sell” his new founded and invented faith, which he did quite successfully. BUT it’s not what the file teaches, nor what God demands.
It presumes that sins can’t exist after Baptism which is definitely NOT biblical. It also presumes to tell God how He will save his Created humanity. Impossible.
1John.1 Verses 8 to 10 If we say we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us. If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just, and will forgive our sins and cleanse us from all unrighteousness. If we say we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us.
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We do not believe that we are free of sin, but that Faith in Christ is what leads to our salvation. We sin and do ask forgiveness. We say those exact words during worship.

Thank you so much for taking the time to respond.
 
Why am I not Catholic? (at least yet)
The doctrine of justification and salvation. I think Lutheranism is the closest to what the Bible actually teaches.
I know Lutherans are accused of being soft on sin(and not just from Catholics) but that’s not the way it is. I also tend to be more monogeristic. (But not double predestination-NO)
and not OSAS, either. Lutherans believe it IS possible to fall away and lose heaven through unbelief.

Now let me say-there is much I think is wonderful and beautiful about the Catholic Church.
especially her strong pro-life/pro family witness and concern for the poor.
What I DON’T have a problem with that some protestants, do- are the following:
Purgatory- although not in quite the way the Catholics understand it. I believe there are hints in the Bible of a purging, or fire, for believers after death.
Mary and the saints.- Actually I think the Orthodox have the most balanced view of Mary-affording her the honor she deserves on the one hand while avoiding the completely ignoring her the way the Protestants do.
The communion of saints does make some sense to me, but it must be understood the the only mediator between man and God is Jesus. Mary as Mediatrix of all graces-NO NO NO.
Confession to a Priest- not a problem with it at all- but I do have a problem with the teaching that if you have committed a mortal sin- and that can be something that is easier to do than one might think-you may not go to heaven if you can’t make it to confession before you are killed in an accident, say. You are never sure if you have perfect contrition or not.
Also I have no problem with the apocryphal books. I’ve read 'em all. Not sure they are inspired Scripture but the above do not keep my from becoming Catholic. I could accept all the above but the doctrine of justification is what keeps me from converting.
So there you have it. There are other things too, but the understanding of the doctrine of justification and salvation are what are keeping me Lutheran-for now.
 
PJM said:
My friend how “should they know?” If WE don’t explain the truth to them?

In a prior post by “JoshuaNY” a doubt about the truth about Purgatory was brought up. I passed on explaining it at the time for fear of exceeding space limits. I’d like to address that issue here.🙂

Many none Catholics are taught “Justification” by Faith alone, or Faith through Grace, and fell confident of there Salvation having professed there belief in Christ as there “personal savior.”… This theology is a recent man-made innovation of Martin Luther in the 16th Century; and actually gives NO assurance of salvation because it attempts to TELL God how He will save them; rather than listen to HOW He chooses to do it.
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Lutherans do not profess “personal savior” as you put it. You mention it attempts to tell God how He will save us. It does the exact opposite. We put our Faith in God and He decides what happens to us. It is out of our hands. Yes we confess our sins, but we consider them wholly forgiven.
 
Vanny said:
Why am I not Catholic? (at least yet)
The doctrine of justification and salvation. I think Lutheranism is the closest to what the Bible actually teaches.
I know Lutherans are accused of being soft on sin(and not just from Catholics) but that’s not the way it is. I also tend to be more monogeristic. (But not double predestination-NO)
and not OSAS, either. Lutherans believe it IS possible to fall away and lose heaven through unbelief.

Now let me say-there is much I think is wonderful and beautiful about the Catholic Church.
especially her strong pro-life/pro family witness and concern for the poor.
What I DON’T have a problem with that some protestants, do- are the following:
Purgatory- although not in quite the way the Catholics understand it. I believe there are hints in the Bible of a purging, or fire, for believers after death.
Mary and the saints.- Actually I think the Orthodox have the most balanced view of Mary-affording her the honor she deserves on the one hand while avoiding the completely ignoring her the way the Protestants do.
The communion of saints does make some sense to me, but it must be understood the the only mediator between man and God is Jesus. Mary as Mediatrix of all graces-NO NO NO.
Confession to a Priest- not a problem with it at all- but I do have a problem with the teaching that if you have committed a mortal sin- and that can be something that is easier to do than one might think-you may not go to heaven if you can’t make it to confession before you are killed in an accident, say. You are never sure if you have perfect contrition or not.
Also I have no problem with the apocryphal books. I’ve read 'em all. Not sure they are inspired Scripture but the above do not keep my from becoming Catholic. I could accept all the above but the doctrine of justification is what keeps me from converting.
So there you have it. There are other things too, but the understanding of the doctrine of justification and salvation are what are keeping me Lutheran-for now.
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I would be willing to give you the Catholic view on each of these if you are interested. I’m surprised you didn’t mention papal succession and Papal authority. Is this also a stumbling block or did you just forget to include it? Peace.
 
ptisme said:
I would be willing to give you the Catholic view on each of these if you are interested. I’m surprised you didn’t mention papal succession and Papal authority. Is this also a stumbling block or did you just forget to include it? Peace.
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OOps forgot to include it-I like the Pope and respect him as the Bishop of Rome but right maybe my views are more Eastern orthodox on that one. Don’t believe in Papal Infallibily, no.
I love how he (and the last 3 Popes) have been reaching out to other churches, though.
I think he’s a wonderful man of God.
 
Vanny said:
OOps forgot to include it-I like the Pope and respect him as the Bishop of Rome but right maybe my views are more Eastern orthodox on that one. Don’t believe in Papal Infallibily, no.
I love how he (and the last 3 Popes) have been reaching out to other churches, though.
I think he’s a wonderful man of God.
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OK, I think it’s going to be important for us to cover the Pope/ Magisterium before going on to any other topics… Later today I’ll give you my pitch on this topic. Is that OK?
 
Hi ptisme I’ll give you the short answer as to what I already know- as I’m on my lunch break.
I already know that papal infallibility is a very limited doctrine.
For example, if the Pope says the sky is green or evolution is true, Catholics don’t have to believe him.
It is faith and morals only. And he can’t override what has already been set as doctrine-either.
But-at this point-not sure I agree with it.

I have know problem with Sacred Tradition, either, but :twocents:Scripture must take precedence.
 
Vanny said:
Hi ptisme I’ll give you the short answer as to what I already know- as I’m on my lunch break.
I already know that papal infallibility is a very limited doctrine.
For example, if the Pope says the sky is green or evolution is true, Catholics don’t have to believe him.
It is faith and morals only. And he can’t override what has already been set as doctrine-either.
But-at this point-not sure I agree with it.

I have know problem with Sacred Tradition, either, but :twocents:Scripture must take precedence.
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yes it’s OK
 
ptisme said:
They are. Show me where the bible says they are not?
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Our works cannot reconcile God or merit forgiveness of sins, grace, and justification, but that we obtain this only by faith when we believe that we are received into favor for Christ’s sake, who alone has been set forth the Mediator and Propitiation, 1 Tim. 2:5, in order that the Father may be reconciled through Him. 10] Whoever, therefore, trusts that by works he merits grace, despises the merit and grace of Christ, and seeks a way to God without Christ, by human strength, although Christ has said of Himself: I am the Way, the Truth, and the Life. John 14:6.

Ephesians 2
[6] And hath raised us up together, and hath made us sit together in the heavenly places, through Christ Jesus. [7] That he might shew in the ages to come the abundant riches of his grace, in his bounty towards us in Christ Jesus. [8] For by grace you are saved through faith, and that not of yourselves, for it is the gift of God; [9] Not of works, that no man may glory. [10] For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus in good works, which God hath prepared that we should walk in them.

Galations. 2: [16] But knowing that man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ; we also believe in Christ Jesus, that we may be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: because by the works of the law no flesh shall be justified
 
JoshuaNY said:
Our works cannot reconcile God or merit forgiveness of sins, grace, and justification, but that we obtain this only by faith when we believe that we are received into favor for Christ’s sake, who alone has been set forth the Mediator and Propitiation, 1 Tim. 2:5, in order that the Father may be reconciled through Him. 10] Whoever, therefore, trusts that by works he merits grace, despises the merit and grace of Christ, and seeks a way to God without Christ, by human strength, although Christ has said of Himself: I am the Way, the Truth, and the Life. John 14:6.

Ephesians 2
[6] And hath raised us up together, and hath made us sit together in the heavenly places, through Christ Jesus. [7] That he might shew in the ages to come the abundant riches of his grace, in his bounty towards us in Christ Jesus. [8] For by grace you are saved through faith, and that not of yourselves, for it is the gift of God; [9] Not of works, that no man may glory. [10] For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus in good works, which God hath prepared that we should walk in them.

Galations. 2: [16] But knowing that man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ; we also believe in Christ Jesus, that we may be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: because by the works of the law no flesh shall be justified
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First off, No where did you find any verse that says we are NOT justified by works. You found Grace and you found faith which Catholics believe as well. That Galatians quote is discussing “works of the Law”, not “good works”. Works of the Law refers to things like circumcision. Go back and read all of Chapter 2 and you will see what I mean. You can read more here: ewtn.com/library/ANSWERS/WORK-LAW.htm

Regarding Ephesians 2, this sums up the Catholic belief perfectly: Salvation is by grace. Faith and works are what justify and sanctify us.
 
Vanny said:
yes it’s OK
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OK, First off here’s what we believe re the Pope:
  1. We believe the Church consists of all Christians (alive and dead). The head of the church is Christ. (I believe we are in agreement here so I will leave this topic for now until we discuss Purgatory).
  2. God knows we are weak and tend to wonder. Whether it be the Patriarchs, the Judges or the Kings et al in the OT, he has always kept a human shepherd here on earth to tend to his flock. Why would he stop? This is where we will start.
  3. As the human representative of the Church on earth, the Pope has the power to speak from the chair of our first Pope: St. Peter. We call this speaking Ex Cathedra. This means that on matters of scripture and morals, the Pope (as our shepherd on earth) can speak infallibly. This hasn’t been done since 1950 so it’s rare. When the Pope speaks Ex Cathedra it MUST NOT contradict Sacred Scripture!
  4. We do not consider the Pope to be infallible! He is a human and as such can sin and say things that are incorrect, just as anyone else. We certainly know Peter was not perfect. The purpose of this office is to ensure the Church does not fall into error and false teaching. This for instance is the reason why Gay Marriage and abortion will never be accepted by the Catholic Church. It’s why the Catholic Church still teaches that birth control is immoral. All Christian churches were in unison on this until the sexual revolution in the early part of the last century. All right, on to specifics with scriptural quotes next:)
 
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