What is keeping Orthodox and Lutherans from unifying?

[Khalid]

Actually, I’m “stuck” on Apostolic Succession and the Teachings of the Catholic Church. I could believe with all my heart that the moon is made of green cheese too but that doesn’t make it so. God Bless, Memaw.

I didn’t say it makes it so: I did not use the word “knowledge” (which means justified true belief), but only “belief”, which need be neither true nor justified.

 

[cath4alltime]

No I didn’t, that’s a strong word to be putting into someone else’s mouth. Your thoughts not mine. What’s your problem?? I may disagree with someone but I NEVER condemn them. God Bless, Memaw

Yes you did imply, by your response I can see you do not know what imply means.

 

[cath4alltime]

Then why are you in the Western church? The story may be apocryphal, but, even if so, is too typical to resist. At one of the Anglican synods (that of Lambeth?), in the late 19th century around the time that Papal Infallibility was made a dogma, the Anglicans invited Orthodox to the synod, and one of the Anglican bishops asked the Orthodox priest or bishop, “What must we do to rid our church of all of the negative and unforeseen effects of Protestantism?”, to which the Orthodox replied, “To get rid of your Protestantism, you must first get rid of your Romanism”, the last thing the Anglican was expecting. But it is true that Protestants and Catholics share the same Latin theology, and disagree only on its interpretation, whereas the framework itself is not shared by Orthodox, which makes nonsense if Eastern interpretations are jammed in to a Latin (i.e. Augustinian) framework (cf. Augustine in Orthodoxy).

1. I am not an ECUSA Anglican 2) Our communion follows Orthodoxy much more the west 3) I get tired of the “you did it” silliness both sides were at fault no one was innocent in 1054

 

[Memaw]

Yes you did imply, by your response I can see you do not know what imply means.

Think what you want.

 

[Symphorian]

Show us some facts. I haven’t heard of that.God Bless, Memaw

(My reference is to the English Ordinariate - Personal Ordinariate OLOW).

I have lost the original reference but I know some former Anglicans who joined the Ordinariate. They started the Evangelium course on Ash Wednesday and were received into full Communion at Easter.

Also, in his homily at a Mass in Darlington, the Ordinary, Mgr Newton said:

“The journey you embarked upon on Ash Wednesday through the days of Lent to your reception into the full communion of the Catholic Church this evening is a model of the whole of your Christian life."

catholicherald.co.uk/news/2012/04/05/50-leave-anglicans-leave-their-parish-to-join-the-ordinariate/

 

[KP3243]

I have seen on the Journey Home that Anglicans who are not Catholic, seem to think they are Catholics by calling themselves Anglo-Catholics and they believe they are somehow in communion with Rome. It is bizarre and the Englishman who was the convert even said it probably doesn’t make sense to anyone else. Anyone know what that is about?

 

[GKC]

I have seen on the Journey Home that Anglicans who are not Catholic, seem to think they are Catholics by calling themselves Anglo-Catholics and they believe they are somehow in communion with Rome. It is bizarre and the Englishman who was the convert even said it probably doesn’t make sense to anyone else. Anyone know what that is about?

I’ve never met an Anglo-Catholic who thought he was in communion with Rome. Anglo-Catholic is a generic term for a certain portion of the Anglican spectrum (or circus), arising primarily from the Tractarian/Oxford Movement, and the slightly later Ritualists. It is Catholicism (not RC), in the Anglican tradition.

GKC

Anglicanus-Catholicus

 

[KP3243]

I’ve never met an Anglo-Catholic who thought he was in communion with Rome. Anglo-Catholic is a generic term for a certain portion of the Anglican spectrum (or circus), arising primarily from the Tractarian/Oxford Movement, and the slightly later Ritualists. It is Catholicism (not RC), in the Anglican tradition.

GKC

Anglicanus-Catholicus

What do you mean it is Catholicism in the Anglican tradition? That is very confusing to people.

 

[GKC]

What do you mean it is Catholicism in the Anglican tradition? That is very confusing to people.

Anglicans can do that, yes.

It means that to be Catholic, to that sort of Anglican, does not mean to be in communion with Rome, but to possess apostolic succession. Thus, in this view, RCs, Orthodox, PNCCs, certain Old Catholics, and Anglicans all are Catholic. No one expects you to agree.

And yes, I’m familiar with Apostolicae Curae. Very familiar.

GKC

 

[Memaw]

(My reference is to the English Ordinariate - Personal Ordinariate OLOW).

I have lost the original reference but I know some former Anglicans who joined the Ordinariate. They started the Evangelium course on Ash Wednesday and were received into full Communion at Easter.

Also, in his homily at a Mass in Darlington, the Ordinary, Mgr Newton said:

“The journey you embarked upon on Ash Wednesday through the days of Lent to your reception into the full communion of the Catholic Church this evening is a model of the whole of your Christian life."

catholicherald.co.uk/news/2012/04/05/50-leave-anglicans-leave-their-parish-to-join-the-ordinariate/

I have a strong feeling there’s more to it than that.God Bless, Memaw

 

[BernadetteM]

(My reference is to the English Ordinariate - Personal Ordinariate OLOW).

I have lost the original reference but I know some former Anglicans who joined the Ordinariate. They started the Evangelium course on Ash Wednesday and were received into full Communion at Easter.

Also, in his homily at a Mass in Darlington, the Ordinary, Mgr Newton said:

“The journey you embarked upon on Ash Wednesday through the days of Lent to your reception into the full communion of the Catholic Church this evening is a model of the whole of your Christian life."

catholicherald.co.uk/news/2012/04/05/50-leave-anglicans-leave-their-parish-to-join-the-ordinariate/

From my understanding, those former Anglicans had been going through the teachings of the Catholic Church for a much longer time. However, Rome wanted them to use a particular curriculum before being received into the Church in addition to what they had already been taught.

The Ordinariate of the Chair of Peter from my own experience, although I converted 17 years ago, attending a group going into the Ordinariate had around a year of being taught what the Church teaches and what one must accept to become Catholic. This is also true as far as I know of the other groups/parishes who are now in the Ordinariate.

In regards to some priests who were ordained more quickly in England, that appears to be an exception and if someone actually knows the official facts please let us know. In the US all the priests who have been ordained went through months of courses before ordination.

Yours in the Hearts of Jesus and Mary

Bernadette

 

[jimkhong]

Anglicans can do that, yes.

It means that to be Catholic, to that sort of Anglican, does not mean to be in communion with Rome, but to possess apostolic succession. Thus, in this view, RCs, Orthodox, PNCCs, certain Old Catholics, and Anglicans all are Catholic. No one expects you to agree.

And yes, I’m familiar with Apostolicae Curae. Very familiar.

GKC

I am glad you see the funny side of it.

What does being in communion mean to Anglo-Catholics and Anglicans in general? I don’t mean in the touchy-feely emotional sense, I mean in the legal-juridicial, intercommunion, which-magesterium-do-you-use and which-authority-you-recognise-to-adjudicate-your-appeal sense. I hope you understand what I mean.

I have met an Evengelical Anglican pastor who sees himself more in communion with the Congregationalist pastor down the road than with his High-Church Bishop of London. I have attended bells-and-smells/kneeling-at-communion-rails Anglican High Mass with the RC Order of Mass (prayers for the Archbishop of Canterbury and Ecumenical Patriarch being the only addition).

I know there is the broad church and the national church characters of the CoE but I suspect there is a fundamental difference between the Catholic-Orthodox and the Anglican understanding of what being in communion is.

 

[Nine_Two]

I know there is the broad church and the national church characters of the CoE but I suspect there is a fundamental difference between the Catholic-Orthodox and the Anglican understanding of what being in communion is.

I think it depends on what part of the Anglican spectrum you’re talking about. For most Anglicans I think you are absolutely right, but I think Anglo-Catholics see Communion as something based on history and orthodoxy. It is because of the former that they tend to stay with the unorthodox elements of Anglicanism.

 

[GKC]

I am glad you see the funny side of it.

What does being in communion mean to Anglo-Catholics and Anglicans in general? I don’t mean in the touchy-feely emotional sense, I mean in the legal-juridicial, intercommunion, which-magesterium-do-you-use and which-authority-you-recognise-to-adjudicate-your-appeal sense. I hope you understand what I mean.

I have met an Evengelical Anglican pastor who sees himself more in communion with the Congregationalist pastor down the road than with his High-Church Bishop of London. I have attended bells-and-smells/kneeling-at-communion-rails Anglican High Mass with the RC Order of Mass (prayers for the Archbishop of Canterbury and Ecumenical Patriarch being the only addition).

I know there is the broad church and the national church characters of the CoE but I suspect there is a fundamental difference between the Catholic-Orthodox and the Anglican understanding of what being in communion is.

I have found Anglicanism to be amusing, for years. Among other things.

I never try to make generalizations about Anglicans. But I think you are referring more to identifying with rather than being in communion with. The entire range of Anglicanism is technically in communion with itself (with the exception of those Anglicans who have stated they are, for one reason or another, in broken or impaired communion, over the most recent enormities of, say, TEC, to include those who are no longer part of the official Anglican Communion). To be in communion is a mutual recognition of orders, sacraments, etc. Your Evangelical Anglican may find the eccelesiology, or perhaps polity, of his Congregationalist brother more in conformity to his beliefs. But unless he appeals to that Congregationalist to ordain his deacon to the priesthood, he’s in communion with His Grace of London.

Anglicanism is a most elastic, nay, motley, concept. Whether its concept of communion differs from that of the RC/Orthodox, I could not say. But that was not my point, above.

GKC

 

[GKC]

I think it depends on what part of the Anglican spectrum you’re talking about. For most Anglicans I think you are absolutely right, but I think Anglo-Catholics see Communion as something based on history and orthodoxy. It is because of the former that they tend to stay with the unorthodox elements of Anglicanism.

Unless, of course, they leave.

Broad spectrum, them Anglicans.

GKC

*posterus traditus Anglicanus
*

 

[jimkhong]

I have found Anglicanism to be amusing, for years. Among other things.

I never try to make generalizations about Anglicans. But I think you are referring more to identifying with rather than being in communion with. The entire range of Anglicanism is technically in communion with itself (with the exception of those Anglicans who have stated they are, for one reason or another, in broken or impaired communion, over the most recent enormities of, say, TEC, to include those who are no longer part of the official Anglican Communion). To be in communion is a mutual recognition of orders, sacraments, etc. Your Evangelical Anglican may find the eccelesiology, or perhaps polity, of his Congregationalist brother more in conformity to his beliefs. But unless he appeals to that Congregationalist to ordain his deacon to the priesthood, he’s in communion with His Grace of London.

Anglicanism is a most elastic, nay, motley, concept. Whether its concept of communion differs from that of the RC/Orthodox, I could not say. But that was not my point, above.

GKC

I believe the Anglicans has some sort of magisterium concept. Is it enforced? Taking the example of the Evangelical Anglican pastor for instance, isn’t it incumbent on the bishop to continually evaluate whether his priests are still teaching the Christian faith as understood by Anglicans? Or is it the case that nothing can be done even if he deviates because he has the benefits of the parish and the Parish Council has not objected?

 

[GKC]

I believe the Anglicans has some sort of magisterium concept. Is it enforced? Taking the example of the Evangelical Anglican pastor for instance, isn’t it incumbent on the bishop to continually evaluate whether his priests are still teaching the Christian faith as understood by Anglicans? Or is it the case that nothing can be done even if he deviates because he has the benefits of the parish and the Parish Council has not objected?

It is more the case that there is no formal analogue of the magisterium, in Anglicanism in general. In extreme circumstances, a diocesan ordinary may step in to put to rights, say, a priest who is claiming to be both Wiccan and Anglican, or perhaps Buddhist and Anglican (both examples were in the news over the past 10 years). Or said ordinary may find nothing outre in such things.

Anglicanism will usually nod to the formal creeds, a varying number of the first 7 Councils, and some concept of Scripture. What that necessarily might mean, beyond the words recited at Mass, or how that might be enforced, I cannot say.

As you may guess, other Anglicans may have a different take on the matter.

GKC

 

[jimkhong]

As you may guess, other Anglicans may have a different take on the matter.

GKC

How right!! There are just so many different opinions in the Anglican communion on not just this, but sometimes rather fundamental things. Any so the rest of us continue to wonder what Anglicanism is.

What happened to Durham then after his infamous Christmas and Easter homilies? Was there any formal inquiry or investigation process?

 

[GKC]

How right!! There are just so many different opinions in the Anglican communion on not just this, but sometimes rather fundamental things. Any so the rest of us continue to wonder what Anglicanism is.

What happened to Durham then after his infamous Christmas and Easter homilies? Was there any formal inquiry or investigation process?

Not to my knowledge. But I do not follow the Anglican Communion or the CoE closely. You might consider whether words, of similar import, of the gracious Catherine, who holds the office of Presiding Bishop in the Episcopal Church, have occasioned any disciplinary rumblings. The answer is no.

GKC

 

[jimkhong]

Thanks GKC

G’night.