What is modest dressing?

[lizziebeth730]

misericordie:

This is a very relativistic question and subjective at that. The point everyone here is trying to make is that there IS such a thing as Imodesty, and we SEE it everywhere including in Mass. Modesty and chastity are mentioned you know inthe NEW Catechism of the Catholic Church. Decency in a person’s dress code does say much about the person, and their desperate NEED to attract attention to themselves. How can anyone NOT look in the afformentioned case, she is saying by her very inapropriate clothing, “hey everyone, look at ME.” There is such a thing as RIGHT and WRONG. As the Holy Father says, OBJECTIVE truth.

Well when I go to mass I generally wear khakis or linen capris unless its a blizzard, and then generally I’m in sweats cause I don’t think the Lord cares what I’m wearin when its comin down 3 inches an hour. At work I wear suits and skirts, but I wear sleeveless shirts under my blazer for when I’m sitting at my desk ( I have to walk 1.5 miles to the T, then another 5 blocks to my office so it gets hot) When I’m just at my apt, 9 times out of 10 I’m in my pajamas. If I’m goin out I get a little scandalous, black pants, halter tops tube tops, whatever, I’m generally goin out with the girls, and don’t really care. Everything is covered I don’t feel immodest. I think it depends on where your going. I certainly wouldnt wear a halter top to mass, unless I had a little sweater over it., but I’m not gonna wear a wool suit to church in the middle of a July heatwave, nor a halter top in the middle of January.

 

[misericordie]

redkim:

Doesn’t matter if it’s long dresses with long sleeves or simply dresses with sleeves. We’re not talking simply about being at Mass here…we’re talking daily life. To mandate such stuff is ridiculous.

Okay so according to this argument, all should be allowed, and i mean ALL? No rules, no morals, all? NOT. The NEW Catechism and the CHURCH talk about the Virtues of chastity and modesty, and lust still is one of the Seven Capital sins. Also, how sad and uncharitable that some people by their clothing, seek so much attention to themselves, almost like a me, me, me,me, me type of attitude, and of course, they(men or women) can be by their clothing a CAUSE of temptation to others, and this should NEVER be tolerated IN CHURCH.
I know many a real priests who will SAY this from the pulpit, and whoever in the Church who does not like objective truth in his parish, well, the priests says, “tough cookies.” COURAGE is a great Virtue in all Catholics, but more so in PRIESTS and Bishops. Mass is not the beach.

 

[thechrismyster]

an observation:
the people i’ve met who speak the loudest about modesty are usually the ones i’d least like to see dress immodestly.

the point of my last post is no one can make you lust. you have to perform that action and that thought. it begins and ends in your own mind, an impure mind will find impurity in the pure.
a pure mind will never have impure thoughts. other people are not responsible for my thoughts, I am. if carmen electra and pam anderson were wearing teeny bikinis at church in the pew in front of me, the impure thoughts i’d have (and oh yeah, i’d have them ) are on MY conscience and are MY fault, not theirs.
no one MAKES you sin. you choose that for yourself.
I think imposed modesty, whether by clergy or society, just masks the underlying problem in our culture. the lack of PERSONAL responsibility. only you are responsible for your dirty mind.
you can’t regulate morals, it only changes behavior, it doesn’t change underlying cause of the behavior.

work on yourself, and no one can make you sin. regardless of the situation.

people who are extremely puritanical fear their OWN response to sexual stimulus… so the seek to destroy all causes of their own occasions of sin. instead of working out thier underlying fear and hatred of sexuality and the human form that makes the issue such a big one to them.

my opinion.

 

[misericordie]

thechrismyster:

an observation:
the people i’ve met who speak the loudest about modesty are usually the ones i’d least like to see dress immodestly.

the point of my last post is no one can make you lust. you have to perform that action and that thought. it begins and ends in your own mind, an impure mind will find impurity in the pure.
a pure mind will never have impure thoughts. other people are not responsible for my thoughts, I am. if carmen electra and pam anderson were wearing teeny bikinis at church in the pew in front of me, the impure thoughts i’d have (and oh yeah, i’d have them ) are on MY conscience and are MY fault, not theirs.
no one MAKES you sin. you choose that for yourself.
I think imposed modesty, whether by clergy or society, just masks the underlying problem in our culture. the lack of PERSONAL responsibility. only you are responsible for your dirty mind.
you can’t regulate morals, it only changes behavior, it doesn’t change underlying cause of the behavior.

work on yourself, and no one can make you sin. regardless of the situation.

people who are extremely puritanical fear their OWN response to sexual stimulus… so the seek to destroy all causes of their own occasions of sin. instead of working out thier underlying fear and hatred of sexuality and the human form that makes the issue such a big one to them.

my opinion.

Ummmm, I hardly think Pam Anderson has been in ANY Mass lately??
Two points here MUST be corrected in your thesis: (1). Okay, so according to your argument what the CATHOLIC Church teaches on modesty, chastity etc. is in YOUR mind, puritanical?? Reason I ask is because no one here is saying that women and men must cover themselves up in a blanket where the ONLY thing visible would be the eyes. HOWEVER, taken from the Catholic Church’s teaching on human sexuality, we all are naturally inclined to evil(now don’t thin I just INVENTED this, please, the Church has explained this for almost 2000 years)because of the seed of ORIGINAL sin which in ALL human beings, we must therefore avoid not only leading others to sin, but avoid the near occassion of sin. I hardly beleive there is NOT ONE SINGLE human being who is not tempted. If you know one, let me know. Only a ROBOT would not be in the least, ever tempted, or maybe superman too. (2). The church has always TAUGHT that immodest dress is sinful, because there are parts of our bodies in our culture that are naturally to be covered, and only to be seen by our spouse, or a doctor etc. Don’t easily dismiss the posibility that there is the ability in another person to seduce and lead another to sin. The BIBLE is full of those examples. It really all boils down to: calling attention to themselves(the reason why anyone would be immodest) and thinking the world revolves around them, or maybe they did not get parental attention growing up, or maybe they lacked the father figure, etc.
Oh yes, and far from the puritans, Quakers, amish, or whatever, PLEASE refer to the CATHOLIC TEACHING on modest clothing etc. found in the NEW Catechism of the Catholic Church #1832, 2523-2524, “purity REQUIRES modest”: #2521, 2522, # 1832.
Pastors of parishes, please be couragous and point out immodest clothes(without pointing to anyone in specific in the pew) from the pulpits.

 

[Ana]

thechrismyster:

an observation:
the people i’ve met who speak the loudest about modesty are usually the ones i’d least like to see dress immodestly.

Is there really anyone you would like to see dressed immodestly?:tsktsk:

thechrismyster:

the point of my last post is no one can make you lust. you have to perform that action and that thought. it begins and ends in your own mind, an impure mind will find impurity in the pure.

You are right that No one can MAKE you lust, although they can try! It is true, one must consent.

thechrismyster:

a pure mind will never have impure thoughts.

But temptations always come in one form or another for every man and woman.

thechrismyster:

other people are not responsible for my thoughts, I am.

They are only sinful if you consent to them, and someone else certainly can be responsible if they put them there.

thechrismyster:

if carmen electra and pam anderson were wearing teeny bikinis at church in the pew in front of me, the impure thoughts i’d have (and oh yeah, i’d have them ) are on MY conscience and are MY fault, not theirs.
no one MAKES you sin.you choose that for yourself.

No one can MAKE you sin, BUT they certainly can tempt you and they are responsible for that. If you were in Church, I would think you were there to worship. So, if carmen and pam wearing teeny bikinis came and sat in front of you. I feel sorry for you, to have been visually assaulted in that way. Or perhaps you may have WELCOMED it? Either way, if you do not consent, you were not harmed, but if you did, these woman caused you to offend God. You are responsible for consenting, but they are also for tempting.

thechrismyster:

I think imposed modesty, whether by clergy or society, just masks the underlying problem in our culture. the lack of PERSONAL responsibility. only you are responsible for your dirty mind

Do I not have responsibility if I tempt my brother to sin?

thechrismyster:

you can’t regulate morals, it only changes behavior, it doesn’t change underlying cause of the behavior.

So demanding pam and carmen wear appropriate clothes to Church, may not help them, but it certainly has helped the poor guy sitting behind them.

thechrismyster:

work on yourself, and no one can make you sin. regardless of the situation.

Sweetheart, you have already said how easy it would be to make you sin… and I quote " and oh yeah, I’d have them "
Don’t put too much stock in your own ability to keep from sinning. We all NEED grace.

thechrismyster:

people who are extremely puritanical fear their OWN response to sexual stimulus… so the seek to destroy all causes of their own occasions of sin. instead of working out thier underlying fear and hatred of sexuality and the human form that makes the issue such a big one to them.

my opinion.

If you are referring to the Church’s view on sex and sexuality, you have just betrayed your ignorance of our Faith. You are waaaaaaaaay off!

 

[Ana]

BTW thechrismyster, having impure thoughts is not a sin. It is consenting to them by entertaining them or acting on them that is sinful.

God bless

 

[misericordie]

Ana:

Is there really anyone you would like to see dressed immodestly?:tsktsk:

You are right that No one can MAKE you lust, although they can try! It is true, one must consent.

But temptations always come in one form or another for every man and woman.

They are only sinful if you consent to them, and someone else certainly can be responsible if they put them there.

No one can MAKE you sin, BUT they certainly can tempt you and they are responsible for that. If you were in Church, I would think you were there to worship. So, if carmen and pam wearing teeny bikinis came and sat in front of you. I feel sorry for you, to have been visually assaulted in that way. Or perhaps you may have WELCOMED it? Either way, if you do not consent, you were not harmed, but if you did, these woman caused you to offend God. You are responsible for consenting, but they are also for tempting.

Do I not have responsibility if I tempt my brother to sin?

So demanding pam and carmen wear appropriate clothes to Church, may not help them, but it certainly has helped the poor guy sitting behind them.

Sweetheart, you have already said how easy it would be to make you sin… and I quote " and oh yeah, I’d have them "
Don’t put too much stock in your own ability to keep from sinning. We all NEED grace.

If you are referring to the Church’s view on sex and sexuality, you have just betrayed your ignorance of our Faith. You are waaaaaaaaay off!

AMEN!!!

 

[Charlemagne]

I didn’t vote because my answer is not on the list provided. Modest dress for women: loose fitting, skirts/dresses at least to the knee, pants/slacks okay, blouses tops should completely cover the stomach/hips, have sleeves to just above the elbows and cover the chest up to the Adams apple. Modest dress for men: loose fitting, pants/shorts to the knee, no “plumbers crack”, shirts completely cover the stomach/hips, sleeves to just above the elbows, chest compeltely covered. Oh, and for both sexes, no underwear showing. Generally, clothing should tend to conceal rather than reveal. The above applies to everyday life, and can be adjusted a little depending on the activity. Obviously for swimming, the above wouldn’t work. Women shouldn’t wear bikinis and men shouldn’t wear speedos. When I’m at the beach, unless I’m actually in the water or walking to or from the water, I tend to wear a loose fitting T-shirt.

 

[jennstall]

larry j:

Ladies the fashion designers are not going to make it easy to become modest in your dress…not unless you demand it.

I’d love to know where women shop that they can’t find modest clothing. I live in SoCali too and never have problems finding decent modest classically designed clothing at the department stores such as Macy’s or Robinsons. I don’t shop at the boutique shops such as Express. Ralph Lauren, Tommy Hilfiger, Liz Claiborne and Donna Karan are all big name designers who make beautiful and modest clothing and many of those designers wind up on the sales racks in the dept. stores and also at the outlet stores such as TJ Maxx, Marshalls, etc. Sometimes I even come across them at Goodwill.

Land’s End has been mentioned too as a great company for well-made modest clothing at reasonable prices and Sears now carries Land’s End for anyone who is uncomfortable buying clothing on the Internet.

Real fashion designers make clothing to last through every fashion trend across your lifetime adn those clothes will generally be modest. The junky “fashionable” staff sold at the mall stores will be lucky if they last several washings.

Jenn

 

[The_Rigbys]

jennstall:

Ralph Lauren, Tommy Hilfiger, Liz Claiborne and Donna Karan are all big name designers who make beautiful and modest clothing (…)

Land’s End has been mentioned too as a great company for well-made modest clothing at reasonable prices and Sears now carries Land’s End for anyone who is uncomfortable buying clothing on the Internet.

I’d love to wear classic designer outfits, but they just don’t seem practical for a mother at home with small children. My personal challenge is to find dresses, tops, and skirts that are easy-care, suitable for nursing a baby, and attractive enough to wear in public without looking like a stereotypical “homeschooling mom,” if you know what I mean. (To quote one of Envoy Magazine’s “Orthodox Catholic Pickup Lines”: “Sorry, but I couldn’t help but noticing how cute you look in that ankle-length, shapeless, plaid jumper.” )

Ideally, these clothes would also be made by workers who have adequate pay and working conditions. I have some doubts about Land’s End and Eddie Bauer. Despite their “All-American” image, I get the feeling that most of their clothes are made in 3rd world sweatshops. But I guess “Shopping and social justice” is a topic for another thread!

 

[jennstall]

I just did a quick google on where Land’s End clothing is manufactured:

“Chinos are being manufactured in Mexico, though company officials are looking at additional capacity in the Far East. Jeans will continue to be made in Mexico. Dress shirts and tailored pants will be made in the Dominican Republic and Costa Rica.”

I’d have to do more searching than I have time for tonight to check out conditions in those countries or in Land’s End’s manufacturing plants in particular, but maybe someone else knows.

 

[cowgirl]

if there are lustful thoughts in your head, they are YOUR problem (the person having them) not the person who dressed, perhaps, not up to your standards.

Exactly!!! I completely agree, and it so happens thats EXACTLY what the pope says in the “Theology of the Body”.

Rachel <><

 

[love4god]

Just be conscientious. Don’t purposely try to entice men. If you’re doing just that and a man has lustful thoughts, that’s his problem. Go grocery shopping in your shorts. Be comfortable, but try not to make it harder on those with frequent tempations. The dress/skirt issue is somewhat unimportant. It’s more about gender roles than about modesty. You can be immodest while wearing a long dress. You can’t ride a bike or horse back ride in a dress. I’ve tried it. There are people out there that are suicidal and lost, girls going for abortions and making the biggest mistakes of their lives, husbands murdering wives, Americans dying in Iraq, people selling their souls for money and deceiving nations …we’re worried about dresses and boys with baggy pants?! Let’s leave the young boys who want to look like thugs alone and focus on the bigger picture. What kind of society makes children feel that they have to have a certain image to be accepted? It’s what’s inside that matters most. There may be thugs on the street who deserve a better place in heaven than some of us. Let’s stand together on what matters most and not worry about the small trivial things. I believe that’s what Christ would do if He were here today.

 

[Toni]

firemnbob:

I voted for tasteful attire, but NOT in church. I once had a priest friend ask how I would dress for the President of the United States, and then, “now you are in front of Jesus, Body and Blood, Soul and Devinity.” think about that.

I agree tasteful is the key word. I have to wear dresses or skirts for work so in the summer I will throw on a pair of capris for Mass but I don’t own a lot of pants and shorts to church never!

 

[CD4]

Detroit Sue:

You have to be comfortable. However, I have built my summer wardrobe around dresses & skirts. I like them long! Much more comfortable than clingy clothes.

I do wear a lot of nice shorts, with short sleeved tops, but love to wear long skirts and overblouses. Very comfortable, and can be both dressy and/or casual…

**I am very short…under five feet, so I am having a lot of trouble finding capris that fit properly. So, I don’t wear those at all. The only pants I have are jeans…Haven’t been able to find any others that fit this year. **

 

[CD4]

<<<Most of my clothes are baggy now. I do this so I don’t look as skinny (I’m practically a skeleton.)>>>

**I hate to burst your bubble, but large, baggy clothes make skinny people look even skinnier. They HANG…The wearer looks lost in them. **

 

[jsk]

Tough question, depends so much on where you are, and what you are doing.

When you are in church, you are in a house of God, to worship. Modesty there is to dress in a way not to distract others in the congregation from the mass. The celebration of the mass should be the focus of all.

 

[misericordie]

love4god:

Just be conscientious. Don’t purposely try to entice men. If you’re doing just that and a man has lustful thoughts, that’s his problem. Go grocery shopping in your shorts. Be comfortable, but try not to make it harder on those with frequent tempations. The dress/skirt issue is somewhat unimportant. It’s more about gender roles than about modesty. You can be immodest while wearing a long dress. You can’t ride a bike or horse back ride in a dress. I’ve tried it. There are people out there that are suicidal and lost, girls going for abortions and making the biggest mistakes of their lives, husbands murdering wives, Americans dying in Iraq, people selling their souls for money and deceiving nations …we’re worried about dresses and boys with baggy pants?! Let’s leave the young boys who want to look like thugs alone and focus on the bigger picture. What kind of society makes children feel that they have to have a certain image to be accepted? It’s what’s inside that matters most. There may be thugs on the street who deserve a better place in heaven than some of us. Let’s stand together on what matters most and not worry about the small trivial things. I believe that’s what Christ would do if He were here today.

This seems to contradict what the NEW Catechism says about modest clothing and chasity, it it NOT just the problem of a guy looking lustfully as being HIS fault, there is a level of responsability: wman are to dress(and men) mdestly, and to vilate this is a grave sin and if it leads another to sin, it is the sin of scandal.

 

[anthony81OR]

Modest dressing. Ummm, a great issue, yet a controlversial one. To me, I don’t mind how a person dress anywhere but, just a reminder, there are perverts out there. Also, there are porn in the industry. Whenever it’s hot, I would wear shorts and t-shirt, with sandals on in church, even though, I was serving mass. When in mass, at least wear a t-shirt and shorts to mass. I agree you should wear appropriate attire because, you are worshipping a loving God. I think, God is happy that, you’re worshipping and praying in church. Ladies, never wear a just a bra and underwear, or a bathing suit when going to mass. Men, don’t wear underwear to mass either. It’s just plain wrong. It’s my opinion. Of course, I’m pretty much open minded.
Anthony

 

[larry_j]

Well, I tried the quote thing…couldn’t make it work…something to the effect of “we can’t make another sin” if men want to lust it is their fault not womens…something like that…

Lust is our personal responsibility…providing temptation to another is also our personal responsibility…(just guessin here but it sounds good…huh)?

I usually now use a method I employed back in my adolescents…whenever that was…I start with a string of Hail Marys and try to work my way through the temptation with rote (sp??) prayer.

It is just that it would be nice to be able to attend mass without saying 15,000 Hail Marys (humor flag a flying here ladies)… The masses I attend are not typically a problem…they just seeem to keep the temperature cool enough so sweaters are more appropriate… really I don’t know what they do…but the norms for church wear do seem to have changed over the last couple of years…more moderate…hmmmm maybe just better air conditioning…who knows???

Humbled and thankful.