What is Oral Tradition

[JaneFrances]

First of all, Eve was not born, she was created from one of Adam’s rib. Second, Eve did sin. The Immaculate Conception not only states Mary was born without sin, but she never sinned. Well, I have some bad news and some good news. Good news first. Christ died for the ungodly. Bad news, based on Catholicism’s teaching Mary was not ungodly, therefore she has no Savior. Third, more good news. Good thing is that Catholicism is wrong and Mary is saved and blessed amongst all women!

You obviously have no idea of what “Catholicism’s teaching” is! You have entirely misrepresented the Catholic doctrine, whereby making your arguement null.

Mary, by virtue of her humanity, was in need of a Savior.

Mary’s Savior is Jesus Christ.

Mary was saved by her Divine Son from the moment of her creation in her mother’s womb.

She is the New Eve. She is the tabernacle of the Word made Flesh. She is the Mother of God.

Mary, in her canticle of praise to her God, sings “My being proclaims the greatness of the Lord, my spirit finds joy in God my savior, For he has looked upon his servant in her lowliness; all ages to come shall call me blessed. God who is mighty has done great things for me, holy is his name.” (Luke 1:46-49)

Mary needed a Savior. Christ is her Savior, lest she could not say, “my spirit finds joy in God my savior.” He saved her the moment he created her.

Salvation comes differently to different people, but always by grace.

By grace, Mary was saved from falling into the pit, we are pulled from it.

 

[ALLFORHIM]

You obviously have no idea of what “Catholicism’s teaching” is! You have entirely misrepresented the Catholic doctrine, whereby making your arguement null.

Mary, by virtue of her humanity, was in need of a Savior.

Mary’s Savior is Jesus Christ.

Mary was saved by her Divine Son from the moment of her creation in her mother’s womb.

She is the New Eve. She is the tabernacle of the Word made Flesh. She is the Mother of God.

Mary, in her canticle of praise to her God, sings “My being proclaims the greatness of the Lord, my spirit finds joy in God my savior, For he has looked upon his servant in her lowliness; all ages to come shall call me blessed. God who is mighty has done great things for me, holy is his name.” (Luke 1:46-49)

Mary needed a Savior. Christ is her Savior, lest she could not say, “my spirit finds joy in God my savior.” He saved her the moment he created her.

Salvation comes differently to different people, but always by grace.

By grace, Mary was saved from falling into the pit, we are pulled from it.

Hi,

I think that is what he said. What you just said all boils down to what he said.

 

[Randy_Carson]

Scripture:
Romans 3:23f or all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God,

Immaculate Conception:
Mary never sinned.

Paul wrote:

"As it is written: “There is no one righteous, not even one;” (Romans 3:10)

“In the days of Herod, King of Judea, there was a priest named Zechariah of the priestly division of Abijah; his wife was from the daughters of Aaron, and her name was Elizabeth. Both were righteous in the eyes of God, observing all the commandments and ordinances of the Lord blamelessly.” (Luke 1:2)

From this second passage we see that some are righteous even though Paul quoted an OT passage stating that no one is righteous.

Further, Zechariah and Elizabeth observed the law blamelessly. You know how Paul spoke of people who tried to live by the Law, yet this couple had managed to do so. How? BLAMELESSLY.

This may blow your non-Catholic mind, but were they sinless in the sight of God? Remember, their son, John was the “greatest born of woman” and pretty important to the coming of the Christ. Wouldn’t it stand to reason that John’s parents were righteous people?

Mary may have been the only one conceived without the stain of original sin, but she may not have been the only one who was sinless for life.

 

[JaneFrances]

Originally Posted by Lampo
Gen. 3:15 - we see from the very beginning that God gives Mary a unique role in salvation history. God says “I will put enmity between you and the woman, between your seed and her seed.” This refers to Jesus (the “emnity”) and Mary (the “woman”). The phrase “her seed” (spermatos) is not seen elsewhere in Scripture.

You have missed the point.

The Genesis Messianic prophecy does not specify YOU! It specifies “the woman.”

Let’s read it:

I will put enmity between you and the womanand between your offspring and hers, He will strike at your head, while you strike at his heel. Gen. 3:15

This is the very first mention of Christ in Sacred Scripture!

Let’s look at it, line by line:

“I will put enmity”. . .Enmity means deep-seated, mutual hatred as in the case of vowed opponents.

“between you and the woman”. . .God is addressing Satan here. Satan is “you.” “The woman” is Mary.

“and between your offspring and hers”. . .Satan’s offspring is sin and death. Mary’s offspring is Jesus Christ, the Savior of the world.

“He will strike at your head”. . .Christ will strike at the head of sin and death, conquering it with the blow.

“while you strike at his heel”. . .The evil one can not prevail as his feeble attempts to strike at the heel of God are no match for God’s glorious power over sin and death.

Thus, from this first Messianic promise, God has revealed his plan for Mary as the woman who brings forth the Savior. Her deep-seated antagonism with the evil one is by virtue of her perfect cooperation with the plan of the Father.

 

[JaneFrances]

Hi,

I think that is what he said. What you just said all boils down to what he said.

Great! Then, we all agree! You aren’t far from the true Faith after all. This is good news, indeed.

 

[ALLFORHIM]

Paul wrote:

"As it is written: “There is no one righteous, not even one;” (Romans 3:10)

“In the days of Herod, King of Judea, there was a priest named Zechariah of the priestly division of Abijah; his wife was from the daughters of Aaron, and her name was Elizabeth. Both were righteous in the eyes of God, observing all the commandments and ordinances of the Lord blamelessly.” (Luke 1:2)

From this second passage we see that some are righteous even though Paul quoted an OT passage stating that no one is righteous.

Further, Zechariah and Elizabeth observed the law blamelessly. You know how Paul spoke of people who tried to live by the Law, yet this couple had managed to do so. How? BLAMELESSLY.

This may blow your non-Catholic mind, but were they sinless in the sight of God? Remember, their son, John was the “greatest born of woman” and pretty important to the coming of the Christ. Wouldn’t it stand to reason that John’s parents were righteous people?

Mary may have been the only one conceived without the stain of original sin, but she may not have been the only one who was sinless for life.

Hi,
In the OT that was how you were considered righteous by following the Law because that is what God gave them. Therefore they were following God–hence righteousness.

In the NT–Jesus fullfilled the Law so we now can only become righteous by faith in Christ.(Read the rest of Romans) Paul is saying no one can follow the Law. He was trying to make the point to the Jews because they did not believe who Christ was. They figured they had the Law so they were as good as gold. Paul was making the point that is not true anymore. The Law is useful because it tells us what sin is. But Paul was telling them they could no longer be saved by following the Law. Can you imagine what a difficult belief that was for them. No wonder they didnt believe.

 

[HailMary]

Hi,
In the OT that was how you were considered righteous by following the Law because that is what God gave them. Therefore they were following God–hence righteousness.

In the NT–Jesus fullfilled the Law so we now can only become righteous by faith in Christ.(Read the rest of Romans) Paul is saying no one can follow the Law. He was trying to make the point to the Jews because they did not believe who Christ was. They figured they had the Law so they were as good as gold. Paul was making the point that is not true anymore. The Law is useful because it tells us what sin is. But Paul was telling them they could no longer be saved by following the Law. Can you imagine what a difficult belief that was for them. No wonder they didnt believe.

So St. Paul is writing a letter to the Jews? Hmmm, wasn’t this letter for the for the Christians?

 

[MariaG]

First of all, Eve was not born, she was created from one of Adam’s rib. Second, Eve did sin. The Immaculate Conception not only states Mary was born without sin, but she never sinned. Well, I have some bad news and some good news. Good news first. Christ died for the ungodly. Bad news, based on Catholicism’s teaching Mary was not ungodly, therefore she has no Savior. Third, more good news. Good thing is that Catholicism is wrong and Mary is saved and blessed amongst all women!

Umm, the Scripture specifically excludes Him and Him only and that is why He didn’t need a savior, but even your church teaches Mary needed a savior.

Of course. God could do anything he wants, well not anything, he cannot lie. However, he could have created me sinless … hmmm … I like the sound of that. Another Immaculate Conception. But once again a sinless person doesn’t need a savior because he dies for the ungodly.

Yet by your own admission, the Catholic church teaches that Mary needed a savior. Since we teach this, yet you seem to imply that Mary would not need a savoir, which completely contradicts Catholic teachings, clearly you are missing something and do not understand the teachings of the Catholic church.

You obviously have no idea of what “Catholicism’s teaching” is! You have entirely misrepresented the Catholic doctrine, whereby making your arguement null.

Mary, by virtue of her humanity, was in need of a Savior.

Mary’s Savior is Jesus Christ.

Mary was saved by her Divine Son from the moment of her creation in her mother’s womb.

She is the New Eve. She is the tabernacle of the Word made Flesh. She is the Mother of God.

Mary, in her canticle of praise to her God, sings “My being proclaims the greatness of the Lord, my spirit finds joy in God my savior, For he has looked upon his servant in her lowliness; all ages to come shall call me blessed. God who is mighty has done great things for me, holy is his name.” (Luke 1:46-49)

Mary needed a Savior. Christ is her Savior, lest she could not say, “my spirit finds joy in God my savior.” He saved her the moment he created her.

Salvation comes differently to different people, but always by grace.

By grace, Mary was saved from falling into the pit, we are pulled from it.

Hi,

I think that is what he said. What you just said all boils down to what he said.

No, that is not what he said. He is saying that IF Mary were sinless, she would not have needed a savoir. This is NOT Catholic teachings. Until you can understand that Mary COMPLETELY needed a savoir, and COULD have been sinless at the same time, you do not understand the teaching of the Catholic Church.

Respectfully,
Maria

 

[ALLFORHIM]

So St. Paul is writing a letter to the Jews? Hmmm, wasn’t this letter for the for the Christians?

It was for both.

 

[ALLFORHIM]

Yet by your own admission, the Catholic church teaches that Mary needed a savior. Since we teach this, yet you seem to imply that Mary would not need a savoir, which completely contradicts Catholic teachings, clearly you are missing something and do not understand the teachings of the Catholic church.

No, that is not what he said. He is saying that IF Mary were sinless, she would not have needed a savoir. This is NOT Catholic teachings. Until you can understand that Mary COMPLETELY needed a savoir, and COULD have been sinless at the same time, you do not understand the teaching of the Catholic Church.

Respectfully,
Maria

Hi,
I guess I dont get it then because someone who is sinless doesnt need to be saved from their sin because they dont have any. Why would she need a Savior. Jesus specifically came to save us from our sin. So if Mary was sinless Mary did not need saving.:whacky: Scriptually that doesnt make sense.

 

[JaneFrances]

It was for both.

Indeed. And, as the Blessed Mother was a Jewish woman, we believe she obeyed God’s Law perfectly, by virtue of grace. And upon the Angel’s annoucement, the Blessed Mother became the first Christian, saying “yes” to her Savior and Son, Jesus Christ. Thus, she was saved from sin by her adherence to the Law as a Jew and saved by her Son, by her relationship with Him and obedience to the Father.

 

[ALLFORHIM]

Indeed. And, as the Blessed Mother was a Jewish woman, we believe she obeyed God’s Law perfectly, by virtue of grace. And upon the Angel’s annoucement, the Blessed Mother became the first Christian, saying “yes” to her Savior and Son, Jesus Christ. Thus, she was saved from sin by her adherence to the Law as a Jew and saved by her Son, by her relationship with Him and obedience to the Father.

That makes better sense to me. I believe that is why God chose her because He saw how faithful she was.

 

[JaneFrances]

Hi,
I guess I dont get it then because someone who is sinless doesnt need to be saved from their sin because they dont have any. Why would she need a Savior. Jesus specifically came to save us from our sin. So if Mary was sinless Mary did not need saving.:whacky: Scriptually that doesnt make sense.

Let’s go back to the pit:

Mary was saved from falling into it. We are pulled out of it. We are all saved.

It is also like someone saying, “I have been saved from the sins of drunkenness and fornication.”

Someone else responds, “But you never drink and you are still pure and a virgin, how can this be?”

As human beings, with temptations, we are all in need of salvation. Mary was saved, by grace, being filled with grace, from all sin. She never fell. We are saved, by grace when we fall.

 

[HailMary]

It was for both.

This is a fundamental misunderstanding of the bible. When most people speak of “context” they usually mean the verses following and preceding the text under study, or they mean, the chapter, or something of that nature. That is not context.

The context of the bible is the CHURCH! And not just any church, the Apostolic Church. It was given to the Church, not to anyone else.

The bible is like a love letter from Christ to His Spouse, that that Spouse is ONE Church, otherwise you make Christ a bigamist because He can have but one wife.

So no, it was not for both. Paul’s audience in Romans did not include non-Christians, he was specifically addressing those who professed their faith in Christ. Lets not try to stretch the text into something it is not.

That being said, the Church has the duty to bring the Gospel (not just the bible) to the world.

Matt 28:19

Go, therefore, and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the holy Spirit,

 

[ALLFORHIM]

This is a fundamental misunderstanding of the bible. When most people speak of “context” they usually mean the verses following and preceding the text under study, or they mean, the chapter, or something of that nature. That is not context.

The context of the bible is the CHURCH! And not just any church, the Apostolic Church. It was given to the Church, not to anyone else.

The bible is like a love letter from Christ to His Spouse, that that Spouse is ONE Church, otherwise you make Christ a bigamist because He can have but one wife.

So no, it was not for both. Paul’s audience in Romans did not include non-Christians, he was specifically addressing those who professed their faith in Christ. Lets not try to stretch the text into something it is not.

That being said, the Church has the duty to bring the Gospel (not just the bible) to the world.

Matt 28:19

Hi,
I think you might want to read Romans all the way through. If you have and still feel this way then well I dont know what to tell you. I think many people here would disagree with you.

 

[HailMary]

Hi,
I think you might want to read Romans all the way through. If you have and still feel this way then well I dont know what to tell you.** I think many people here would disagree with you**.

I’m sure there are (many people who would disagree with me), just as they are many who disagree that Jesus Christ established the Sacrament of Confession and other crystal clear teachings.

 

[ALLFORHIM]

I’m sure there are just as they are many who disagree that Jesus Christ established the Sacrament of Confession and other crystal clear teachings.

Hi,

Im sorry I dont understand what you are saying. I think it is because maybe you left out a few words from your sentence

 

[kbmorri]

Can you guys answer a simple question with a simple answer? I don’t need pages of quotes from your Catechism or links to pages of explanation about Oral Tradition from an apologetic website. I just want a one sentence answer that tells me exactly what Oral Tradition is.

 

[kbmorri]

Thus is the problem with protestants. You think it is easy and cut and dry. Everone can understand right? This is why there are so many denominations of protestants because anyone can derive at their own interpritation of the Bible.The Catholic Church has Bishops,Cardinals,and the Pope dedicating their entire life to worshiping God and passing down His teachings. They don’t have the distractions of family, jobs, etc. to keep them from their duties which is to pass down what God put in place and not to be pulled by what the popular thing is that day like abortion, contraception, gay marriages. We are not perfect but the teaching of Christ passed down to the Apostles IS. Your argument… like reformation?

 

[kbmorri]

So how do you figure out what the text he quoted means? Do you get it by osmosis? Please explain?