What is penance?

[liberational]

I was priveledged to be guided to the link in Post #23 which led me to this: (Luke, xiii, 5): “except you do penance, you shall all likewise perish.” For any who might not get the verse number, it is: the Gospel of Luke, chapter 8, verse 5.

I’ve read Luke Chapter 8 verse 5, the scripture of which you speak is not present in verse 5 or any of the verses around there.

Could you please double check and if it is there, please indicate what Bible you are reading and indicate again, the Chapter and verse.

 

[Ad_Deum_1]

I was priveledged to be guided to the link in Post #23 which led me to this: (Luke, xiii, 5): “except you do penance, you shall all likewise perish.” For any who might not get the verse number, it is: the Gospel of Luke, chapter 8, verse 5.

That’s Luke chapter 13, verse 5. Easy mistake!

And it’s there - “No, I say to you; but except you do penance, you shall all likewise perish.”

The words of Christ written in the Bible (compiled by the Church) for all the doubters of Truth.

 

[liberational]

That’s Luke chapter 13, verse 5. Easy mistake!

And it’s there - “No, I say to you; but except you do penance, you shall all likewise perish.”

The words of Christ written in the Bible (compiled by the Church) for all the doubters of Truth.

The New American Bible: The Bible used by the United States Conference of Catholic Bishops.

What bible are you reading? A protestant Bible perhaps?

Luke 13 5

By no means! But I tell you, if you do not repent, you will all perish as they did!"

 

[allhers]

The New American Bible: The Bible used by the United States Conference of Catholic Bishops.

What bible are you reading? A protestant Bible perhaps?

Luke 13 5

By no means! But I tell you, if you do not repent, you will all perish as they did!"

liberational, no matter what Bible Ad_Deum is using, they are still saying the same thing.
Lets compare the two verses:
“No/, I say to you/; but except you do penance/, you shall all likewise perish.”

By no/ means! But I tell you/, if you do not repent/, you will all perish as they did

Looks like the same message to me.

 

[liberational]

Okay, lets compare the two verses:
“No/, I say to you/; but except you do penance/, you shall all likewise perish.”

By no/ means! But I tell you/, if you do not repent/, you will all perish as they did

Looks like the same message to me.

Yes, repent.

You can’t work for your salvation, doing acts of penance is nothing more than working for salvation.

No where in the Bible does it say we can earn our salvation, so clearly this scripture is not contradictory and is speaking only of repentance…repentance…not acts of penance.

If you stick to your claim, then you are suggesting that a Christian can earn his salvation through works…think about it long and hard before you respond…( it’s a no brainer)

I’d still like to know what Bible version it was taken from. I used the Bible most CATHOLICS use.

 

[Jesus_N_Cherie]

Yes, repent.

You can’t work for your salvation, doing acts of penance is nothing more than working for salvation.

No where in the Bible does it say we can earn our salvation, so clearly this scripture is not contradictory and is speaking only of repentance…repentance…not acts of penance.

If you stick to your claim, then you are suggesting that a Christian can earn his salvation through works…think about it long and hard before you respond…( it’s a no brainer)

I’d still like to know what Bible version it was taken from. I used the Bible most CATHOLICS use.

Actually, Liberation, very many devout Catholics use the Douay-Rheims translation which is an older translation by St. Jerome…I believe. Either way, we answered your question. It states it plain as day, clear cut, in either translation. You must now either accept the words of Jesus Christ, or deny them. They weren’t the words of men, but of Christ…Who will be your judge.

Are you now going to sabatoge the thread and question of the OP…myself…by claiming that the words of the CHRIST JESUS are not to be believed? If you would like to argue that point, please begin your own thread…preferably on another Forum…not a ROMAN CATHOLIC one. I asked the original question so that devout Roman Catholics could help me on my Faith question. That is what the Forum is for.

I am so curious. Why do you, and so many others who are anti-Catholic, come on to our ROMAN CATHOLIC forum, and try to steal the peace from those who are honestly trying to deepen our faith in the ONE HOLY and APOSTOLIC Church? Our Church and our Faith has come down directly from JESUS who intrusted His work to St. Peter…WHO IS CATHOLIC! Whatever denomination you are part of, it is a REBELLION against Christ’s Own Church and instructions for the souls of all men, throughout the world, of every generation that came after Christ.
No where in the Bible will you find where Christ said to rebell against Himself or the Apostles, or to break away from the Apostles and begin your own church. You don’t have the Apostles in your denomination. Your denomination rejected and rebelled against the teachings and traditions of the Apostles, who had been given the Keys to Heaven by Christ Jesus Himself!
Please, Liberation, be true to Jesus. Be true to His instructions for the souls of all men. Be true to your own soul.

If you are on this forum to learn about the Catholic Faith, then WELCOME, and learn to your hearts content by those on this Forum who are faithfull followers of the Holy Bible, and the ROMAN Catholic Church. Ask any questions without trying to discredit the Word of God, or the Catholic Faith. Most on this forum will do all that we possibly can…and God will do the rest…to answer your questions.
We are not perfect. As you can see in my prior post, I mistakenly read the Roman numeral X to be a 5 instead of a 10. Made all of the difference. But someone else was here to lovingly point out my mistake and fix it.
I am trying to act in Charity. Many times, when I feel that the Faith of Christ is under attack, it is hard to remember that all points can be made with Charity. I have failed in the past, but I am striving to go to recieve the Sacrament of Reconciliation where I will confess my sins, then I hope to do penance, ammend my ways, and recieve Jesus in Holy Communion today. I will then recieve the graces to do better in the future to practice more Charity.

God bless you.

 

[guanophore]

Graciously and generously responding to the needs of others, and accepting the ordinary difficulties of your life, is also a worthwhile penance/atonement to offer God.

This is very true. “Hatred stirs up strife,
but love covers all offenses.”

Being loving in the midst of strive will not only help cover our offenses, but those of others.Prov 10:12

1 Peter 4:8-11
8 Above all, maintain constant love for one another, for love covers a multitude of sins. 9 Be hospitable to one another without complaining. 10 Like good stewards of the manifold grace of God, serve one another with whatever gift each of you has received. 11 Whoever speaks must do so as one speaking the very words of God; whoever serves must do so with the strength that God supplies, so that God may be glorified in all things through Jesus Christ. To him belong the glory and the power forever and ever. Amen.

Loving acts are a means of God’s grace.

I think it is problematic, however, to use the word “atonement” for them because this confuses our separated brethren, who have been taught that only Jesus’ blood can atone for sins.

I think it is more useful to use the concept “reparation” or restitution, or even to “lead a life worthy of the manner in which we have been called” and to “produce works that befit repentance”.

When we join our sufferings to those of Christ, we are covering ourselves in the atoning work of His precious blood, but the concept of “offering it up” is very strange to many proetestants.

I don’t usually visit this section of CAF, though, so maybe protestants don’t either?

 

[Jesus_N_Cherie]

Faith is always present. Skepticism and cynicism enter into the equation when one looks at the uncensored history of the Church in relation to culture, politics and religion.

Liberation.
You have it backward. Culture, politics and religion are meant to be under the censorship of the ROMAN CATHOLIC CHURCH, which is the Church God instituted before He ascended to Heaven. Politics and culture are not able to rule Christ, Who created the world. And as you can see by the state of the world today, when the world tried to rule Christ, it found that it couldn’t…so it kicked Christ out of all decisions. The Roman Catholic Church is the absolute only voice for Christ in the politics of the World…and it is only used or accepted for humanitarian efforts if I am not mistaken.

 

[liberational]

I’m here because I am amazed at how many people do " all things Catholic" and are blissfully unaware as to why they do so, who implemented the action or why.

Many Catholics are just happy to do what they are told…never questioning or wondering why.

This thread has gone on for 5 pages and the best answer I have received was that some people saw some visions, so that’s why the Church claims that Mary and Christ want us to do acts of penance.

As far as your interpretation of Luke 13 5, you are actually wrong. In fact, you are so wrong that you won’t find that scripture as a defence for Christ and Mary telling people to carry out acts of penance.

Do you really believe that you just discovered this scripture and it’s justification for penance? Your interpretation is incorrect.

The scripture speaks of repentance, not works of penance.

 

[Jesus_N_Cherie]

This is very true. “Hatred stirs up strife,
but love covers all offenses.”

Being loving in the midst of strive will not only help cover our offenses, but those of others.Prov 10:12

1 Peter 4:8-11
8 Above all, maintain constant love for one another, for love covers a multitude of sins. 9 Be hospitable to one another without complaining. 10 Like good stewards of the manifold grace of God, serve one another with whatever gift each of you has received. 11 Whoever speaks must do so as one speaking the very words of God; whoever serves must do so with the strength that God supplies, so that God may be glorified in all things through Jesus Christ. To him belong the glory and the power forever and ever. Amen.

Loving acts are a means of God’s grace.

I think it is problematic, however, to use the word “atonement” for them because this confuses our separated brethren, who have been taught that only Jesus’ blood can atone for sins.

I think it is more useful to use the concept “reparation” or restitution, or even to “lead a life worthy of the manner in which we have been called” and to “produce works that befit repentance”.

When we join our sufferings to those of Christ, we are covering ourselves in the atoning work of His precious blood, but the concept of “offering it up” is very strange to many proetestants.

I don’t usually visit this section of CAF, though, so maybe protestants don’t either?

Although you addressed the answer to someone else on the thread, you are just confirming what I have realized more surely. Thank you very much.
But, if you will, Guano, answer me a question. It is being asked sincerely, not antagonistically, as I am confused on this point.
If there are protestants on this forum, who enter the threads, are we supposed to change our wording just for them?
For instance…I am the OP. I asked a question…and not on the Apologetics section…about what can a person do to do acts of penance. Another person…probably a protestant by his words, rather than ignore the thread and go along his merry way, joined the thread with the intent of discrediting the importance of penance. So, rather than being able to spend time concentrating on the original question being answered, the thread was sabotaged by having to defend where penance is spoken of in the Bible. And now, it will turn into a conversation about whether Christ really meant penance when He said penance…and then about whether or not the Bible is correct.
It is very difficult to act charitably towards this…though I am trying. So many times I come across an athiest or pagan who are anti Catholic, and it seems that the sole purpose for being on this forum is to steal our peace. That they want to spread dissension, and just attack everything that we believe. And they don’t even stay on the apologetics threads…which I could accept. Why do we have to accept them coming onto a thread asking a Chatechism question? How do I practice charity there when they are attacking and asking for proof of everything when that wasn’t even in the question of the OP? Do we have the ability to cease this practice among them?
I am not talking about people who are not of the Catholic Faith who come in and ask questions without attacking our beliefs. They are more than welcome to ask all questions in order to learn, if only to be more informed about what we believe. I am talking about the ones who attack our beliefs. How do we act in Charity under the circumstances of them coming just to cause dissension and steal our peace and sabatoge the threads? I confess that it makes me angry…so, how do I stop them from accomplishing their goal?
I would dearly love to hear an answer to this. It is distressing to me. I don’t go to their forums…of which I have heard there are many, and attack their beliefs. Why must they be allowed to do so to ours? What right have they to be invited in when the sole purpose of them being here is to attack?

 

[allhers]

With God, all things are possible.

 

[Jesus_N_Cherie]

I’m here because I am amazed at how many people do " all things Catholic" and are blissfully unaware as to why they do so, who implemented the action or why.

Many Catholics are just happy to do what they are told…never questioning or wondering why.

This thread has gone on for 5 pages and the best answer I have received was that some people saw some visions, so that’s why the Church claims that Mary and Christ want us to do acts of penance.

As far as your interpretation of Luke 13 5, you are actually wrong. In fact, you are so wrong that you won’t find that scripture as a defence for Christ and Mary telling people to carry out acts of penance.

Do you really believe that you just discovered this scripture and it’s justification for penance? Your interpretation is incorrect.

The scripture speaks of repentance, not works of penance.

Liberation, the CATHOLIC Church is where the Holy Scriptures come from. The words of Christ were spoken to the Apostles, who are the leaders of the Catholic Church. The Holy Scriptures were not put together until a few hundred years after the Passion and Resurrection of Christ Jesus. Even the OT wasn’t in book form until the Catholic Church put it together under the instruction of the HOLY SPIRIT. So, who do you think knows more about what Christ said and meant and taught? Protestants who have MAYBE been around for only 1/4 of the length of time since Christ died, or those who knew Him personally, and taught through detailed instruction all of the generations after themselves? I believe the Church. And the Church has always had the Most Blessed and Ever Virgin Mother of Christ as an extremely important part of our faith. That Christ said repent, means repent. How does one go about repenting? Ask the Church who has been given the answers through the Holy Spirit, Christ’s Life and Words, and tradition.

The apparitions you speak of have been very heavily intellectually, scientifically and faithfully studied throughout the years. It isn’t, as you probably think, someone just says “Mary appeared to me, and this is what she says” and it is accepted by the Church. If you believe that, you are highly mistaken. Mary has been appearing in Medjugoria, Croatia since 1981. The Church has not made any official pronouncement on these apparitions. The Church cannot take such a risk without being without a doubt, 100% sure that it is true. Therefore, many times it is a waiting game to see if what was said proves to be true. It also must be taken into consideration, especially at Lourdes and Fatima that the Blessed Mother appeared to children who were ignorant, and could not have made up the things that they were saying. The apparitions were also followed by a very unique miracle of the sun. In Lourdes, the young girl that the Blessed Mother appeared to was so ignorant that she was a teenager and still wasn’t able to remember the Catachism, so hadn’t yet made her First Communion. Yet, she remembered every word that the Blessed Mother told her to tell the priest. And she did so in great peril. The children at Fatima, and also Medjugoria have also held totally true to their words through great peril. Yet, the apparitions at Guadaloupe, Lourdes, Fatima and many others…along with inner locutions such as what St. Faustina experienced have been totally accepted by the Church.
My point is, things taught and practiced by the ROMAN Catholic Church are not without discernment. And the members of the faithful, though many times without the means to do all of the research, live and experience their faith without having to know all of the answers. It is called FAITH. We are taught enough to believe that the Catholic Church came directly from Christ Himself, and we follow. And the truth is, when we have the opportunity to do the research in the spirit of learning the Truth, we always find it in the Catholic Faith. The truth is, many great theologians of other denominations, when doing thier research on the history of Christianity find themselves led into the Catholic Church. The ones who study in the spirit of Truth will always be led to the fullness of Faith, which is recieved in the ROMAN Catholic Church.

 

[Jesus_N_Cherie]

I’m here because I am amazed at how many people do " all things Catholic" and are blissfully unaware as to why they do so, who implemented the action or why.

Many Catholics are just happy to do what they are told…never questioning or wondering why.

This thread has gone on for 5 pages and the best answer I have received was that some people saw some visions, so that’s why the Church claims that Mary and Christ want us to do acts of penance.

As far as your interpretation of Luke 13 5, you are actually wrong. In fact, you are so wrong that you won’t find that scripture as a defence for Christ and Mary telling people to carry out acts of penance.

Do you really believe that you just discovered this scripture and it’s justification for penance? Your interpretation is incorrect.

The scripture speaks of repentance, not works of penance.

So, Liberation, how do you repent? And how do you know that what you are doing is what Christ Jesus meant when He spoke the words of repentance?

 

[Bruno_Schulz]

**Someone said here:
Priests very kindly make “these things” (penance) very easy to do: A few Our Fathers or things like that.​

I’m afraid you tend to see that not right:

For one thing: If you pray – REALLY PRAY the Lords Prayer, it’s nothing at all “easy”, but it’s actually talking to God, and one of the words is AN FORGIVE US OUR SINS – AS WE FORGIVE THOSE WHO FAILED AGAINST US.
Again we ask to really find forgiveness before the Lord.

If we’d speak to an emperor, a king or a ruling president, what fuss would we would undertake and how carefully we’d weigh every word.
What a funny figure is a king or president compared to God.
“easy thing” ?

Yes, God in His overwhelming grace kind of made it “easy” to us to speak to him.
Can it be “easy” to speak to God?! Are we really worthy to speak to God. Are we at all aware who God is?

“A few Our Fathers or things like that”.

When Jesus went up the mountain to pray, it was face to face talk to the Father. When we are allowed to pray the Lords Prayer given to us by Jesus, it’s the highest the world has. The highest the world owns. The highest an must precious things you and I and everybody who believes in God, ever can have.

So: “Things like” the Lords Prayer is not at all penance itself. No! On the contrary, the “Our Fathers” prayers is the graceful granting of God to speak up to Him and promise penance in our deepest regret for what we’ve done. The prayer itself indeed is not at all penance, but here we have the chance to actually commit penance hereafter. Let’s not only promise to do penance, but do it in really loving God and our neighbour and next.
**

 

[Jesus_N_Cherie]

**Someone said here:
Priests very kindly make “these things” (penance) very easy to do: A few Our Fathers or things like that.​

I’m afraid you tend to see that not right:

For one thing: If you pray – REALLY PRAY the Lords Prayer, it’s nothing at all “easy”, but it’s actually talking to God, and one of the words is AN FORGIVE US OUR SINS – AS WE FORGIVE THOSE WHO FAILED AGAINST US.
Again we ask to really find forgiveness before the Lord.

If we’d speak to an emperor, a king or a ruling president, what fuss would we would undertake and how carefully we’d weigh every word.
What a funny figure is a king or president compared to God.
“easy thing” ?

Yes, God in His overwhelming grace kind of made it “easy” to us to speak to him.
Can it be “easy” to speak to God?! Are we really worthy to speak to God. Are we at all aware who God is?

“A few Our Fathers or things like that”.

When Jesus went up the mountain to pray, it was face to face talk to the Father. When we are allowed to pray the Lords Prayer given to us by Jesus, it’s the highest the world has. The highest the world owns. The highest an must precious things you and I and everybody who believes in God, ever can have.

So: “Things like” the Lords Prayer is not at all penance itself. No! On the contrary, the “Our Fathers” prayers is the graceful granting of God to speak up to Him and promise penance in our deepest regret for what we’ve done. The prayer itself indeed is not at all penance, but here we have the chance to actually commit penance hereafter. Let’s not only promise to do penance, but do it in really loving God and our neighbour and next.
**

Thank you. I will try to remember your words, and hopefully the Our Father prayer will mean so much more to me, and from me to the Eternal Father from now on. The words above made very much sense. Thank you for sharing them with me.

 

[Ad_Deum_1]

The New American Bible: The Bible used by the United States Conference of Catholic Bishops.

What bible are you reading? A protestant Bible perhaps?

Luke 13 5

By no means! But I tell you, if you do not repent, you will all perish as they did!"

Douay-Rheims Bible… translated from the Latin Vulgate. Quite far from a Protestant Bible… don’t you worry.

 

[chrisb]

Grace and Peace,

I’m not sure what penance is. Ultimately I see the devout involved in ‘repentance’ and through repentance God’s Mercy heals the wounds of sin and we enter into purity not because we have made satisfaction for sin but because God’s Grace and Mercy is therapeutic in the lives of the repentant.

 

[grandfather]

I

And where on this forum does it say that every thread is up for debate by anti-Catholics anyway?
I asked a simple question. If you didn’t have the answer, why did you join the thread? It was rude to try to bring dissension onto this thread!

Maybe when a question is opened or when a poster would like to have a discussion among Catholics it would be helpful to state that. It seemed obvious that this was Catholics talking to Catholics, but maybe that needs to be stated to avoid different parties getting involved who are looking for an argument.

Someone who has no experience or knowledge of the lives of the saints and the super natural interventions that have come through them in history, witnessed by countless extraordinary miracles, and the sacramental life of the Church will not be able to comprehend many things inherent to Catholic and Orthodox spirituality.

Communication is possible with these well intentioned people on certain levels, but you can not expect someone to understand.

So Lib, why not check out of this Catholic to Catholic thread and leave these people who are woefully ignorant of scripture to themselves? There are plenty of other threads where you can do battle.

 

[po18guy]

Thanks for the link, but it does not address the question…where is it found, or who decided, that Mary and Jesus want us to carry out acts of penance.

OK, try these:

newadvent.org/cathen/11618c.htm

newadvent.org/cathen/11618b.htm

And, bear with us, as these concepts are much older than all other faith traditions. Our faith is ancient, as it was revealed to us and given to us by the Ancient One. It is difficult to understand for all non-Catholics, most of whom have much newer and shallower theology.

However, the Catholic church has nothing to justify. Rather, all of the more recent faiths must justify their variance from original Christianity.

Christ’s peace.

 

[grandfather]

I

The scripture speaks of repentance, not works of penance.

Scripture says bring forth fruits of repentance. Fruits of repentance are penances. Penance is being sorry for your sins and that can be manifested in different ways. In the Old Testament they wore sack cloth and ashes, for example.

In the spiritual life people can advance, stand still, go backward. People can grow spiritually. Those who are more advanced can experience things others do not, or know things that others do not.

An analogy would be someone who studies any subject, math, a foreign language, philosophy or chemistry. In order to be able to take advanced courses or understand the subject matter at an advanced level you have to know the basics. So if someone studied math in the severnth grade and the teacher came in and gave a lesson in advanced calculus there would be no comprehension possible. Nevertheless the things learned in seventh grade math are valuable lessons. Suppose the seventh grader insisted though, that because he could not understand calculus that the principles of calculus are all false. His tools and methodologies leave him in disbelief that such things could be true. It all seems like jibberish and anyone who could accept calculus as a valid system of math must be blind.

Catholicism and Protestantism are different religions. they are similar, but different. Catholics believe there is more to religion than the Bible. The Bible is inspired by God, but God also speaks to us in other ways. The Holy Spirit is active in the Church and leads us into all truth until the end of time as Jesus promised in the Bible.

So when Protestants insist they do not understand something Catholics do, because they can’t find it in the Bible, the Catholic response is, “so what, who cares”. They wil ltry to point to where purgatory or penance, or the sacraments are found in scripture to accomodate Protestants or answer their questions, but Catholics don’t really care where it is in the Bible. That is a Protestant thing, part of their religion that is different from ours.
Sometimes it is no use trying to explain something, because they just won’t get it. They can’t.

We can still will one another’s good. We can pray for one another, but coming to agreement is impossible without the intervention of the Holy Spirit.