What is the best argument to promote the TLM?

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Isn’t that basically what Paul says in one of his epistles? That without the Resurrection, it is all utterly and completely meaningless, but with the Resurrection, it is all holy. You can’t have the Unbloody Sacrifice of the Mass without the Resurrection on Easter Sunday.
Most OF parish bulletins will advertise: Mass Times or Eucharist. Most EF parishes will advertise Holy Sacrifice of The Mass.
The Blessed Sacrament was started at the Last Supper and finished on the Cross. By His Resurrection He saved the world. At Mass we are recreating the unbloody Sacrafice. Protestants focus on the communal meal and Resurection and don’t have the Sacrament.
I should point out to you that I’m doing archival research for a history project; that means I get to back into old Catholic Church records in Southern PA. Five parishes, I’ve found their yearbooks for the 1920’s, which list Mass schedules. Guess what it usually says: First Mass/Low Mass and High Mass. Nothing about “Holy Sacrifice of the Mass” on the schedule. So that’s not a particularly fair claim.
 
I realize that is the difference between Traditional and Non Traditional Catholics.
What, that one group only sees what it wishes to see? On that, I think we are agreed.
The Novus Ordo is a more relaxed communal meal vibe than the TLM’s focus on Calvary. As both forms are legal you are free to choose where to spend your time and worship.
Relaxed? I stand, sit, stand again, kneel, walk, kneel again, walk again, kneel and stand; you call that relaxed?

Honestly, you are simply grasping at straws now.
 
I realize that is the difference between Traditional and Non Traditional Catholics. The Novus Ordo is a more relaxed communal meal vibe than the TLM’s focus on Calvary. As both forms are legal you are free to choose where to spend your time and worship.
Though I may have posted this already I think it bears stating again:

*What did the Vatican II Church officially declare about the Mass in reference to Pauline Rite Mass?"
Code:
"Hence, the Mass, the Lord's Supper, is at the same time and inseparably:

   1. A sacrifice in which the sacrifice of the cross is perpetuated
   2. a memorial of the death and resurrection of the Lord, who said "do this in memory of me" (Lk. 22:19).
   3. a sacred banquet in which, through the communion of the Body and Blood of the Lord, the People of God share the benefits of the Paschal Sacrifice, renew the New Covenant which God has made with man once for all through the Blood of Christ. *(Instruction on the Worship of the Eucharistic Mystery Eucharisticum Mysterium, #C1."
Also,

*In the foreword to the General Instruction on the Roman Missal states:
Code:
The Sacrificial character of the Mass was solemnly defined by the Council of Trent in accordance with the universal tradition of the Church (Session 22, Sep. 17, 1562). The Second Vatican Council has enunciated this same teaching once again, and made this highly significant comment: "At the Last Supper our Saviour instituted the Eucharistic Sacrifice of his Body and Blood. He did this in order to perpetuate the sacrifice of the cross until he should come again;"* (Constitution On the Sacred Liturgy #47).
So, it would seem that your opinion is trumped by the teachings of the Church Herself in it’s official writings.
 
Relaxed? I stand, sit, stand again, kneel, walk, kneel again, walk again, kneel and stand; you call that relaxed?
And no mention of prayer? Interesting.
What did the Vatican II Church officially declare about the Mass in reference to Pauline Rite Mass?"
Nothing since the Pauline Rite Mass wasn’t fabricated until four years after Vatican II ended. 😃
 
Malleus:First spread Devotion to the 15 Mystery Holy Rosary of the Blessed Virgin Mary - St Louis Marie De Montfort method as outlined in the " True Devotion to Mary." First and foremost.

Review the “Council of Trent” and “Quo Primum” by Pope St Pius the V and encourage others to understand why this Mass was Codified and why its use will always be Valid no matter what time period the Church enters.

Be steadfast in your faith IE a good example to others .

Remember this - the Early Church grew 40% per year despite being outlawed by the Roman Empire and a death sentense on the heads of every Christian.

But in 300 years - Rome became the Holy Roman Empire. The Canon of the TLM is the same since those days.

GOD’s Grace converts the non believer and it will help your fellow Catholics see the beauty in the Traditional Rites as well.

The Church has always been successful in every age with the TLM. Including ours. By the fruits shall you know.

pax
The Roman Canon as we know it is no older then 590, Pope St. Gregory I.
 
Fool?

Most OF parish bulletins will advertise: Mass Times or Eucharist. Most EF parishes will advertise Holy Sacrifice of The Mass.

The Blessed Sacrament was started at the Last Supper and finished on the Cross. By His Resurrection He saved the world. At Mass we are recreating the unbloody Sacrafice. Protestants focus on the communal meal and Resurection and don’t have the Sacrament.
You’re kidding! I didn’t have a clue…😃

Come on, by now you should know a bit of my background. I was there in the 40’s as a tot; there in the 50’s as an altar boy, in the seminary in the mid 60’s.

Protestants do a lot of things, and many of them not most of them. Depends on which end of the spectrum you stand. The early Mass was disjointed over two days; gradually filled out, and the OF is not a protestantization; it is a paring down of a lot of things that were tacked on over the centuries, and additions to the readings. We can all agree it was abrupt in its changes, not organically changed, and that it is going to see further work. And we can all agree that the Eastern liturgies focus more on the mystical side than does the EF. That doesn’t make the EF bad, nor the Eatern liturgies bad, and a lot of what is complained about concerning the OF has less to do with the OF than it does with the person saying it.

And considering that there are so few EF parishes in the world, I don’t think you really know what they advertise. I would hazard a bet that you might not have seen 2% of them - that would be about 10.
 
And no mention of prayer? Interesting.

Nothing since the Pauline Rite Mass wasn’t fabricated until four years after Vatican II ended. 😃
Excellent point - but the question is essentially the same - what did Vatican 2 say about the EF? It would appear the quote is accurately conveyed.
 
Protestants focus on the communal meal and Resurection and don’t have the Sacrament.
I have to clarify what I think is an urban legend here. This simply is not true. I was born bred and through and through Baptist. I know what I speak of when I speak at least of Baptist. While they have no conception of Sacramental theology, when Communion is being observed (as a symbol only), it is the Crucifixion that is the focal point: the suffering and death of our savior. I can still tell you the hymn we sang every time: At the Cross. “Alas and did my Savior bleed and did my Sovreign die. Would He devote that Sacred Head for sinners such as I?” There are many differences in Protestants, but it is a myth to think that the suffering of the cross is not a cental point.
 
Also,

*In the foreword to the General Instruction on the Roman Missal states:
Code:
The Sacrificial character of the Mass was solemnly defined by the Council of Trent in accordance with the universal tradition of the Church (Session 22, Sep. 17, 1562). The Second Vatican Council has enunciated this same teaching once again, and made this highly significant comment: "At the Last Supper our Saviour instituted the Eucharistic Sacrifice of his Body and Blood. He did this in order to perpetuate the sacrifice of the cross until he should come again;"* (Constitution On the Sacred Liturgy #47).
So, it would seem that your opinion is trumped by the teachings of the Church Herself in it’s official writings.
It seems you left out one small detail. The original General Instruction of the Roman Missal of the Mass of Paul VI contained a heretical definition of the Mass. Fully approved definition and fully heretical.

If we were to take the approach of many Catholics on this thread, and had lived at the time the first Instruction was promulgated, we would have had to accept the heretical instruction out of “obedience” and swallow it.

Only because of the outcry and outrage of Traditional Catholic faithful were the errors of this original instruction finally corrected and replaced by a second instruction, which you quoted above.

The first heretical instruction was telling as to what the architects of the Novus Ordo had in mind.
 
A reasonable person would look at what else was happening at the same time, to determine what the actual casuation was.

It is only the simplistic person who will buy into the post hoc, ergo propter hoc argument for causation.

The sacrament that is more telling than the reduction in the number of vocations is marriage; the fall-off of marriages and the surrounding issues are far more valid evidence of the causation than simply looking at the reduction in the number of ordinations.

Marriage has been impacted by a number of issues, including materialism (which took off after WW2, when we started the move to dual incomes and women moving into non-traditional jobs); the rise of ABC which started in 1930 and by the early 1960’s was fueled by the new form - the Pill; the almost instantaneous rejection of Humanae Vitae and the the following massive increase in the use of ABC; the sexual revolution which reached a fever pitch in the mid 1960s; the gradual move since the 1960s to later and later marriage; the change in civil laws which previously made criminal both ABC and “shacking up” and the massive increase in both categories since then; and the move to “no fault” divorce which lead to a mssive increase in divorces.

Those who obstinately confuse the reform intended by Vatican 2 with the dissent that followed after Vatican 2 and is nowhere prompted by the documents - or for that matter, the OF - are either too intellectually lazy to do any research, or they are approaching intellectual dishonesty.

Many of the same issues that impacted the sacrament of marriage have had an impact - direct or indirect - on other sacraments. The dissent that over-ran HV spread like wild fire; if the Vatican was (theoretically) so far off the mark on sexual issues and was to be ignored, then where else were they to be ignored? Where else were they simply a bunch of out-of-touch old people who simply “didn’t get it”?

It is not the alternatives which are within the OF which caused priests to so thoroughly ignore the rubrics; it was the expanding idea that whatever Rome said was irrelevant, and that relevance had to be applied at the local level.

Vatican 2 did not create the changes in society, nor do the documents support any of the craziness that has gone on since 1965. Nor was it a few priests, ordained after 1965, who gave us the chaos in the OF; it was priests who were ordained before Vatican 2, many of them well before it. Blaming the necessary reform of the Church - which according to this pope and the last one still has not been fully implemented - for the subsequent chaos is simply to ignore the multitude of issues impacting both the clergy and the people in the pews. Experimentation had already started in the Mass before we got the OF handed to us, and that at a time where the rubrics were more formal and complex and a time where authority was far more reaching and (supposedly) effective.

And any business which fires its leader over things which the leader has no control is a business which will fail shortly.
You would take the largest revolution in Church history and all of the statistics citing sharp decline after 1965, throw them out the window and then blame the crisis in the Church on “other factors”? The Church, via VCII, opened Herself up to the world at the exact worst time in human history to do so. The cultural revolution began in the late 60’s just as the innovators destroyed the Church’s defenses against it.

If a hurricane-proof building is stripped of it’s “hurricane-proofness” right before a hurricane, did the hurricane cause the building’s demise or did the stripping?

The ordination date of the priests makes no difference at all. Look at when the sex abuse crimes were committed. The vast majority were the late 60’s and after.

Also show me where the Vatican Council succeeded in any of its stated goals? It failed in all of them. Thus even judged by its own standards it was a dismal failure.
 
It seems you left out one small detail. The original General Instruction of the Roman Missal of the Mass of Paul VI contained a heretical definition of the Mass. Fully approved definition and fully heretical.

If we were to take the approach of many Catholics on this thread, and had lived at the time the first Instruction was promulgated, we would have had to accept the heretical instruction out of “obedience” and swallow it.

Only because of the outcry and outrage of Traditional Catholic faithful were the errors of this original instruction finally corrected and replaced by a second instruction, which you quoted above.

The first heretical instruction was telling as to what the architects of the Novus Ordo had in mind.
What was heretical about it? It seems rather important to identify what it was if you’re going to make the claim.
 
If a hurricane-proof building is stripped of it’s “hurricane-proofness” right before a hurricane, did the hurricane cause the building’s demise or did the stripping?
You can’t argue with logic like that!:rolleyes:
 
Only because of the outcry and outrage of Traditional Catholic faithful were the errors of this original instruction finally corrected and replaced by a second instruction, which you quoted above.

The first heretical instruction was telling as to what the architects of the Novus Ordo had in mind.
I think you’re referring to Cardinals Ottaviani and Bacci who pointed out the errors of the New Mass. The story is that the Pope changed his original definition but he didn’t make any adjustments to the text of the Mass which is what the criticism was about. In turn these two cardinals were criticized themselves for daring to stand up to the Pope.
 
Isn’t that basically what Paul says in one of his epistles? That without the Resurrection, it is all utterly and completely meaningless, but with the Resurrection, it is all holy. You can’t have the Unbloody Sacrifice of the Mass without the Resurrection on Easter Sunday.

I should point out to you that I’m doing archival research for a history project; that means I get to back into old Catholic Church records in Southern PA. Five parishes, I’ve found their yearbooks for the 1920’s, which list Mass schedules. Guess what it usually says: First Mass/Low Mass and High Mass. Nothing about “Holy Sacrifice of the Mass” on the schedule. So that’s not a particularly fair claim.
“Ockham” and others are simply expressing their opinions as if they are facts and they are not. Sadly they are all too often erroneous too. He also couches his opinions as if they are facts:
Obviously I wasn’t there, but I’m willing to guess the execution of our Redeemer was considerably different than the dinner the night before. If you were there wouldn’t you have been much more sombre, respectful, and reverent at the foot of the Cross than at the dinner table? Of course the two are inseparable. Why then does the new Mass and Protestant services diminish Calvary?
It doesn’t yet he offers it as a foregone conclusion. Amazing he cannot see his errors in thought.
 
I have been the main mover behind starting a TLM in my parish. We have a great group of people but we are struggling to grow.

What in your experience is the best argument to support the TLM?
What is TLM?

Thanks…
 
What is TLM?

Thanks…
Unofficially the EF Mass is called the “traditional latin mass” (sic) by some.

Known as the “Tridentine Mass” or the “Extraordinary Form of the Mass” or simply EF Mass.
 
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