What is the best argument to promote the TLM?

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malphono said:
And, BTW, saying “one rite” is a two-edged sword: it’s clearly your assumption that the “one rite” would be the Roman, because of size. Well, size isn’t everything, and I suspect the tone would change if that “one rite” ended-up to be, for example, Byzantine.
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Right on!

Or should I say, rite on?
 
mick321 said:
Absolutely.

Merely present evidence [or solemnly affirm] that since 0715 PDT today, you have assisted the Extraordinary Form of the Roman Liturgy - anywhere in the world - I will admit that I was wrong.

Furthermore, if you are big enough to assist the EF at Our Lady of Sorrows in Baton Rouge - during Easter Tritium - I will also thank you profusely for opening your heart and mind to our Holy Faith.

Your move, Sport.
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You are idiotic. What “proof” would you like me to provide? Also, if I were to open my "heart and mind to our Holy Faith" I wouldn’t do it at a chapel with priests who are not in full communion with the Church or who have no active ministry (fyi, Our Lady of Sorrows is an SSPX chapel). No, the Church where I attend has had the Latin Mass at 9:30 Sunday Mornings since the 1980s and guess what? That’s where I attended the EF.

Nice try at grasping at straws; however, two words come to mind…EPIC FAIL.
 
otjm said:
I would suspect that I have attended more of the EF Masses in a year than you have in a life time. Further, I have made no comments anywhere that indicate any preferance whatsoever. You are simply reaching; I find that happening fairly regularly when people are confronted with reality as opposed to their pipe dreams.

I grew up on the EF. I find nothing to disparage about it and would wish that all who want to attend would have the privilege and ability to do so. It is simply not available in the area I live and there seems little interest in getting it established.

I am privileged to live where the OF is said with reverence. The fact that I address others’ comments on their presumption that it is not reverent has nothing to do with what form I would prefer to attend; my preferences are irrelevant to that issue.

Nice try, but totally lacking in prescience.
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No dispute. From 1970 thru 2008, I attended the OF only. My assertion was that you were not like to attend the TLM. Certainly, it is possible to prove me wrong.

Merely present evidence [or solemnly affirm] that since 0715 PDT today, you have assisted the Extraordinary Form of the Roman Liturgy - anywhere in the world - and I will immediately admit that was in error on this assertion. Or not, as you wish.

BTW, are you still in the Tualatin area? If so, have you ever attended any of these Liturgies?

Our Lady of Fatima Church
503-246-6212
4530 SW Garden Home Road
Portland, OR 97219
Sunday 8:00am [TLM]
Sunday11:00am [TLM]
Monday 9:00am* [TLM]
Saturday 9:00am* [TLM]
8.7miles from Tualatin

St. Birgitta Parish
(503) 286-3929
11820 NW St. Helens Rd.
Portland, OR 97231
Sunday 8:00am [TLM]
21.4miles from Tualatin

Our Lady of Guadalupe Abbey
503-852-0107
9200 Northeast Abbey Road
Carlton, OR 97111
[NO LATIN MASS]
21.8miles from Tualatin

I agree. Nice try, indeed.
 
mick321 said:
No dispute. From 1970 thru 2008, I attended the OF only. My assertion was that you were not like to attend the TLM. Certainly, it is possible to prove me wrong.

Merely present evidence [or solemnly affirm] that since 0715 PDT today, you have assisted the Extraordinary Form of the Roman Liturgy - anywhere in the world - and I will immediately admit that was in error on this assertion. Or not, as you wish.
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Why does he have to prove that he’s attended the EF since 7:15 this morning? What if he belongs to a quite stable OF Parish, and wants to spend the triduum there; I’m very interested in attending the EF in person soon, but I’m not going to give up a holy day at either my home parish or at the parish I attend at college, since I love them both very much.
 
Timothysis said:
You are idiotic. What “proof” would you like me to provide? Also, if I were to open my "heart and mind to our Holy Faith" I wouldn’t do it at a chapel with priests who are not in full communion with the Church or who have no active ministry (fyi, Our Lady of Sorrows is an SSPX chapel). No, the Church where I attend has had the Latin Mass at 9:30 Sunday Mornings since the 1980s and guess what? That’s where I attended the EF.

Nice try at grasping at straws; however, two words come to mind…EPIC FAIL.
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Relax, Sport. I am familiar with St. Agnes as well as Our Lady of Sorrows. The choice is yours. No need to put yourself in an uncomfortable place for my amusement. I am prepared to take you at your word if you are prepared to give it.

Do you or do you not sir, solemnly affirm that since the hour of 0715 PDT today, you have assisted in the Extraordinary Form of the Roman Liturgy in a Catholic Church?

You need to call it. I can’t call it for you. It wouldn’t be fair, Friendo.
 
mick321 said:
Do you or do you not sir, solemnly affirm that since the hour of 0715 PDT today, you have assisted in the Extraordinary Form of the Roman Liturgy in a Catholic Church?
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None of my business, but it seems to me that Tim addressed the question fairly, and in reasonable charity.

In any case, what is this fixation with 07:15 PDT? :confused:
 
Ockham said:
A Novus Ordo can be said reverently. However, all things done with equal reverence and by the book, the NO is not as reverent as the TLM.
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Not true. :nope:

Personal (and erroneous) opinions such as “the NO is not as reverent as the TLM” should not be offered as if they are fact.
 
Lujack said:
If the Divine Liturgy of the Byzantine Church and the Latin Rite are equal, why have two? Why have the Dominican Rite? Why have Baroque architecture and Gothic architecture?
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First, the different Divine Liturgies are used by many different Eastern Catholic churches not just those within the Byzantine Rite. If memory serves there are about a dozen recensions or churches within the Byzantine Rite.

The two different forms or “rites” of the Mass for the Latin Rite are not analogous to different rites and churches on the Eastern side of the Catholic Church. Apples and oranges. You cannot compare them and make any sense.

The different Divine Liturgies, both forms of the Mass and other legitimate Catholic sacrificial liturgies ARE equal in the salvific grace they bestow upon us. Equal in the most important of ways, different in how they achieve that equality – the offering of Jesus Christ to God His Father for propitiation of our sins – past, present and future.
 
ChurchTorch said:
I’ve read his books. In no way is the EF objectively superior (or inferior for that matter) to the OF. You might **desperately **wish otherwise but it’s just not that way. I don’t even believe it’s possible for the Church to promulgate a sacrificial liturgy that is intrinsically and objectively superior to another approved sacrificial liturgy. Do different people prefer different liturgies? Of course. Does that make one of the other universally superior or inferior? Of course not.

What about the prayers at the foot of the altar? What’s your point?
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As I said, it’s great your opinion is not authoritative. As for desperation, given your tone I sense bit of it of nervousness about the EF on your part and it appears that you are the one behaving desperately. I’m quite content with the rapid growth of the EF and its efficacy and am aggressively helping its further proliferation, just as the Pope has directed. I attend it nearly daily now because for me and an ever-increasing number of others, it is more efficacious. It is spiritually superior for us. Accept it in a spirit of charity if it is not for you.

What exactly don’t you understand about the Prayers at the Foot of the Altar?
 
After the additions and subtractions of sacred and mundane elements, lets look at the texts.

Someone got a bit too creative with the blue pencil, there, methinks. Most audacious. Can’t see a good reason to dump the old text and create a new. I believe the older is more reverent. It seems more supplicatory (and there’s more of it!). The newer seems blander.
 
Layman said:
After the additions and subtractions of sacred and mundane elements, lets look at the texts.

Someone got a bit too creative with the blue pencil, there, methinks. Most audacious. Can’t see a good reason to dump the old text and create a new. I believe the older is more reverent. It seems more supplicatory (and there’s more of it!). The newer seems blander.
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There is really no discounting that when one clicks on the link you’ve provided. Great link!

I truly wish that my childhood parish still did the TLM when I was a boy; as an acolyte, I would have really enjoyed being as much more involved in the Mass as it seems that the acolytes are according to the TLM format. Just reading the text fills me with a profound sense of holiness…
 
In approximately three hours (Eastern time) it will be Holy Thursday. Maybe we should all refrain from these debates and put our focus on our Redeemer.
 
srp643 said:
As I said, it’s great your opinion is not authoritative. As for desperation, given your tone I sense bit of it of nervousness about the EF on your part and it appears that you are the one behaving desperately. I’m quite content with the rapid growth of the EF and its efficacy and am aggressively helping its further proliferation, just as the Pope has directed. I attend it nearly daily now because for me and an ever-increasing number of others, it is more efficacious. It is spiritually superior for us. Accept it in a spirit of charity if it is not for you.

What exactly don’t you understand about the Prayers at the Foot of the Altar?
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Not nervous, perhaps overly amused though.

I must admit that I am flabbergasted that some will offer the ridiculous premise that the EF is objectively superior to the OF as if it was a proven fact. It would be equally ridiculous for someone to suggest the reverse as well. Same with the Easter Divine Liturgies. To suggest any of the DLs is objectively superior or inferior to any of the Masses smacks terribly of not understanding the Church nor sacrificial liturgies.

Can we have our preferences, even our strong preferences for a given sacrificial liturgy? Of course. I suppose one could even be so bigoted towards a given sacrificial liturgy that they might not feel nourished. But the salvific grace is still there. To suggest one is superior or inferior to another without qualifiers is just wrong. Stunningly wrong.

I honestly don’t know if people who make such comments can’t think in a critical manner, if they feel they can “sneak” the premise in so they can “pyramid” on top or it or what. But in the end, to suggest the Church promulgates one sacrificial liturgy that is superior (or inferior) to another is way, way beyond the pale. DIFFERENT sacrificial liturgies? Yes. Superior and inferior ones? No way.
 
Layman said:
After the additions and subtractions of sacred and mundane elements, lets look at the texts.

Someone got a bit too creative with the blue pencil, there, methinks. Most audacious. Can’t see a good reason to dump the old text and create a new. I believe the older is more reverent. It seems more supplicatory (and there’s more of it!). The newer seems blander.
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:rotfl:

I remember the first time a “traditionalist” tried that “argument” on me in real life. “Just look!” he exclaimed. I could barely refrain from laughing. As if he (or I) was qualified to analyze the text and render an authoritative conclusion that one liturgy was superior to the other!! As far as I can tell he equated verbosity or word count with being superior.

Again to suggest the Church gives us superior and inferior sacrificial liturgies is really beyond the pale.

:rotfl:
 
Ha ha, yes! :rotfl:

I remember a time when “someone” on an “internet forum” tried to suggest to me that I could not believe the evidence of my own eyes, that a Church could not get sandbagged by a section of its own hierarchy and issue a new Mass so cut-down and different that Catholics could debate whether it’s actually valid or not. Not its minutiae, mind you, but validity. :rotfl:

I mean, all those beautiful, reverent old prayers? Give 'em the abbreviated version, tone down the supplicatory and propriatory elements, seize upon the option to do it in the local language and then wonder why people don’t take it as seriously any more.

[Note: this post contains sarcasm]
 
Here’s my car analogy for this subject:

When you were a child, Mom and Dad had a Volkswagon. After you graduated school and got a job you bought a Volkswagon, and then another when it was time because you thought it was the only car to have.

One day you get a phone call; old Uncle Joe who was all but forgotten in a seniors’ home miles away left you his Mercedes in his will.

Now that Volkswagon you’ve been driving all your life doesn’t seem adequate anymore. They are both cars, get you from A to B, but when was the last time you saw a Volkswagon in a parade?

If the point of the liturgy is to worship God then shouldn’t we do so in the best manner possible? However, if the point of the liturgy is a community gathering, celebration, if the focus is on each other instead of God then I guess whatever each parish thinks best will do.

Happy Triduum.
 
Ockham said:
Here’s my car analogy for this subject:

When you were a child, Mom and Dad had a Volkswagon. After you graduated school and got a job you bought a Volkswagon, and then another when it was time because you thought it was the only car to have.

One day you get a phone call; old Uncle Joe who was all but forgotten in a seniors’ home miles away left you his Mercedes in his will.

Now that Volkswagon you’ve been driving all your life doesn’t seem adequate anymore. They are both cars, get you from A to B, but when was the last time you saw a Volkswagon in a parade?

If the point of the liturgy is to worship God then shouldn’t we do so in the best manner possible? However, if the point of the liturgy is a community gathering, celebration, if the focus is on each other instead of God then I guess whatever each parish thinks best will do.

Happy Triduum.
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But we don’t accept your premise that the OF is a Volkswagen and the EF is a Mercedes. The EF is a great Mass, and ought to be offered at every parish, but that doesn’t mean that I have to accept that it is inherently superior to the OF. The Pope certainly doesn’t. Now, a reverently celebrated EF is superior to an irreverently celebrated, abuse-filled OF (and, since the EF currently lives in the bubble, like we talked about earlier, it is pretty much safe from abuses since the only ones celebrating it are those who had to work to do it), but the assumption that you make is that the OF is irreverent and abuse-filled by nature, when it is not.
 
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