What is the best argument to promote the TLM?

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**But we don’t accept your premise that the OF is a Volkswagen and the EF is a Mercedes. ** The EF is a great Mass, and ought to be offered at every parish, but that doesn’t mean that I have to accept that it is inherently superior to the OF. The Pope certainly doesn’t. Now, a reverently celebrated EF is superior to an irreverently celebrated, abuse-filled OF (and, since the EF currently lives in the bubble, like we talked about earlier, it is pretty much safe from abuses since the only ones celebrating it are those who had to work to do it), but the assumption that you make is that the OF is irreverent and abuse-filled by nature, when it is not.
That’s exactly the point. People offer a flawed premise (EF superior to the OF) as if it’s a fact and it’s not. You make some other good points as well. The EF is largely abuse-free today because it’s celebrated in tiny number by those very sensitive to liturgical abuses (and good for them!) and not because of its rubrics.

But two things really blow me away. First, that some here feel they have the authority to publicly conclude that the EF is superior to the OF. NOT that they prefer the EF to the OF or that they personally are better nourished by the EF, but that the EF is objectively superior to the OF. Talk about stunning hubris!

There is also the issue of believing the Holy See would promulgate an inferior sacrificial liturgy. I don’t think it’s even possible for the Church to promulgate a sacrificial liturgy that is inherently inferior to another. That just boggles the mind.

Yet some will still try to make the claims and they’ll remain frustrated when people discount their comments.
 
Here’s my car analogy for this subject:

When you were a child, Mom and Dad had a Volkswagon. After you graduated school and got a job you bought a Volkswagon, and then another when it was time because you thought it was the only car to have.

One day you get a phone call; old Uncle Joe who was all but forgotten in a seniors’ home miles away left you his Mercedes in his will.

Now that Volkswagon you’ve been driving all your life doesn’t seem adequate anymore. They are both cars, get you from A to B, but when was the last time you saw a Volkswagon in a parade?

If the point of the liturgy is to worship God then shouldn’t we do so in the best manner possible? However, if the point of the liturgy is a community gathering, celebration, if the focus is on each other instead of God then I guess whatever each parish thinks best will do.

Happy Triduum.
Gee, let me extend that analogy.

After receiving the call about Uncle Joe you jump into your Volkswagen Phaeton W-12 ($102,000) and drive to the seniors’ home. In the parking lot you see your Uncle Joe’s 14 year old Mercedes-Benz 190E. It’s got 275K miles on it and it runs poorly but it’s still Uncle Joe’s old car and it means a lot to you.
 
That’s exactly the point. People offer a flawed premise (EF superior to the OF) as if it’s a fact and it’s not.
You can tell me you prefer the Novus Ordo but to suggest it is just as reverent is absurd. It’s the NO crowd here that gets into a nutty and makes this into a superiority contest. Put the two side by side. One has more prayers, genuflections, signs of the Cross, silence and rubics designed to honour the Lord. There is more Catholic theology in the Usus Antiquor. It is therefore, more reverent.

My answer to the OP’s question stands: the current state of the Church. Lex orandi, lex credendi. A man-focused, watered down liturgy produces the same in its attendees. Watch the debate when Communion in the hand is defended. No theological reasons, all personal perference from the Me generation.

It is indeed the structure of the NO with its options and openness that invites abuse. To have a liturgical form prone to abuse should make all of us question its purpose. No where in the documents of V2 was a new Mass called for.

If you can offer evidence as to how the NO is just as reverent as the UA I’d be happy to see it. Otherwise this counter argument is nothing more than personal preference and ad homenin attacks.
 
You can tell me you prefer the Novus Ordo but to suggest it is just as reverent is absurd…
So YOU say. Neither the Pope nor the Church agrees with you. I think that’s why so many “traditionalists” get so frustrated and angry. They make the ridiculous comment of “the EF is more reverent than the OF” and they cannot comprehend not only why people don’t agree with them but also why the same people really don’t take seriously.

If someone approached me at either of my parishes and claimed that “the EF is more reverent than the OF” I would likely grin, politely excuse myself and walk away. That person has just telegraphed something very unbecoming about themselves. Ignorance of the Mass.
 
You can tell me you prefer the Novus Ordo but to suggest it is just as reverent is absurd. It’s the NO crowd here that gets into a nutty and makes this into a superiority contest. Put the two side by side. One has more prayers, genuflections, signs of the Cross, silence and rubics designed to honour the Lord. There is more Catholic theology in the Usus Antiquor. It is therefore, more reverent.
So YOU say. Neither the Pope nor the Church agrees with you. I think that’s why so many “traditionalists” get so frustrated and angry. They make the ridiculous comment of “the EF is more reverent than the OF” and they cannot comprehend not only why people not only don’t agree with them but also why the same people really don’t take them seriously.

Your comment “There is more Catholic theology in the Usus Antiquor. It is therefore, more reverent.” is neither valid nor relevant nor logical. Just more personal opinion.
My answer to the OP’s question stands: the current state of the Church. Lex orandi, lex credendi. ** A man-focused, watered down liturgy** produces the same in its attendees. Watch the debate when Communion in the hand is defended. No theological reasons, all personal perference from the Me generation.
Another personal (and erroneous) opinion.
**It is indeed the structure of the NO with its options and openness that invites abuse. ** To have a liturgical form prone to abuse should make all of us question its purpose. No where in the documents of V2 was a new Mass called for.
Another personal (and erroneous) opinion.
If you can offer evidence as to how the NO is just as reverent as the UA I’d be happy to see it. Otherwise this counter argument is nothing more than personal preference and ad homenin attacks.
No man the burden of proof is on you for making the absurd claim that the EF is superior to the OF. All you have given is personal preference and ad homenin attacks. The “proof” offered on posting #131 was painfully lacking.

If someone approached me at either of my parishes and claimed that “the EF is more reverent than the OF” I would likely grin, politely excuse myself and walk away. That person has just telegraphed something very unbecoming about themselves. Ignorance of the Mass.
 
If someone approached me at either of my parishes and claimed that “the EF is more reverent than the OF” I would likely grin, politely excuse myself and walk away. That person has just telegraphed something very unbecoming about themselves. Ignorance of the Mass.
Then walk your talk here…walk away. I’m not frustrated or angry, yet keep getting accused of it by you and other NO fans. Ignorance is quite the charge coming from someone who can’t prove their point.
 
No dispute. From 1970 thru 2008, I attended the OF only. My assertion was that you were not like to attend the TLM. Certainly, it is possible to prove me wrong.

Merely present evidence [or solemnly affirm] that since 0715 PDT today, you have assisted the Extraordinary Form of the Roman Liturgy - anywhere in the world - and I will immediately admit that was in error on this assertion. Or not, as you wish.

BTW, are you still in the Tualatin area? If so, have you ever attended any of these Liturgies?

Our Lady of Fatima Church
503-246-6212
4530 SW Garden Home Road
Portland, OR 97219
Sunday 8:00am [TLM]
Sunday11:00am [TLM]
Monday 9:00am* [TLM]
Saturday 9:00am* [TLM]
8.7miles from Tualatin

St. Birgitta Parish
(503) 286-3929
11820 NW St. Helens Rd.
Portland, OR 97231
Sunday 8:00am [TLM]
21.4miles from Tualatin

Our Lady of Guadalupe Abbey
503-852-0107
9200 Northeast Abbey Road
Carlton, OR 97111
[NO LATIN MASS]
21.8miles from Tualatin

I agree. Nice try, indeed.
Our Lady of Fatima is SSPX. That should answer that question in and of itself, as I follow the Magisterium.

St Birgittas is about a 40 to 45 minute drive from my home; I have been there on several occasions. Our Lady of Guadalupe Abbey normally has the OF in English and I attend there about once a month (family related issues) and have attended Midnight Mass there since 1971, and before that in the late 60’s. Interestingly on their website, they have the text of the Abbot Peter’s homily for Midnight Mass, but the picture is of the Mass on Christmas day. Midnight Mass is SRO, OF, English.

The EF is not reasonably available in Oregon at all; I know there was one celebrated occasionally in Eugene, but I am not sure it is still available. The whole issue is relatively quiet.

For some time we had the OF in Latin at St Patrick’s in Portland on Saturday evening with Schola Cantora (or perhaps it was Cantora Ecclesia) singing the Mass. I always made a point to take our RCIA class to Mass there; while it was not the EF it certainly brought the pomp and circumstance that can be the OF to the front.

If that answers your question to your satisfaction, then we have resolved that. If it doesn’t, then I would suggest that the issue is yours, not mine.
 
I agree the message of fatima doesn’t get any stronger.

And if you pray the Rosary daily. The clarity of the message becomes stronger and stronger.
 
The Catholic Church bears the four marks: one, holy, catholic (universal) and apostolic. Let’s use that as the measure for the two forms.

One: The UA is the Mass our Church offered for centuries. It connects us with the saints and holds the Truth.

Holy: The UA reserves the sanctuary for the priest and his assistants. The NO has a flury of laity entering the sanctuary, the tabernacle may not be there, there are fewer genuflections and signs of the Cross, and unconsecrated hands distribute Communion in the hand to those standing

catholic (universal) This should almost be self-explanatory. The UA is the same everywhere it is said. The NO is like a box of chocolates.

Apostolic: The UA developed slowly, organically over centures. The NO was written by Annibale Bugnini who was later semi-exiled to Iran and is not recognized by the Church.

You’d think that the man who gave us this new Mass would be a saint by now. Yet, most Catholics don’t know the name nor the circumstances surrounding his creation. The greatest liturgical change in the Church’s history and yet no sainthood, devotion, church named after him, or other special form of recognition. I wonder why?

*"Even the Protestant reformers recognized the connection between Church teaching and the Mass. Luther felt that by overthrowing the Mass, he would overthrow the papacy. He and other Protestant reformers made it a point to eradicate the idea of sacrifice from their “reformed” liturgies. Altars and crucifixes were removed, and Scripture readings and sermons replaced the concept of the Real Presence of Christ in the Blessed Sacrament. This was done gradually, so that Catholics, who, after all, were going to the same churches and often had the same pastors, were hardly aware that they were little by little becoming Protestants.

Since the early 1960’s, many of these same changes were gradually introduced into Catholic churches. Then in 1969, the Mass was rewritten by a Vatican commission assisted by six Protestant theologians. No references to the Mass as a sacrifice remain in the new liturgy, which is defined as “the memorial of the Lord” and closely resembles a Protestant service. The New Mass is not an expression of the traditional Catholic Faith but of a new ecumenical religion".

Because of the hallowed sacredness of the Roman Rite and to protect it, Pope St. Pius V codified the Traditional Latin Mass using the strongest language in the proclamation Quo Primum in 1570. It says in part:

"At no time in the future can a priest, whether secular or order priest, ever be forced to use any other way of saying Mass. And in order once and for all to preclude any scruples of conscience and fear of ecclesiastical penalties and censures, we declare herewith that it is by virtue of our Apostolic authority that we decree and prescribe that this present order and decree of ours is to last in perpetuity, and never at a future date can it be revoked or amended legally. . . .

“And if, nevertheless, anyone would dare attempt any action contrary to this order of ours, handed down for all times, let him know that he has incurred the wrath of Almighty God, and of the Blessed Apostles Peter and Paul.”

Despite such a forcible proclamation, the new rite was introduced in 1969. For what reason would the pope ever change the Mass and what are the differences? The use of the vernacular as opposed to Latin in this rite represents a minor difference between the two Masses compared with the other changes. A total of 35 prayers or about 70% of the Tridentine Mass was replaced or discarded. *
queenofangelscatholicchurch.org/LatinMass
 
Our Lady of Fatima is SSPX. That should answer that question in and of itself, as I follow the Magisterium.

St Birgittas is about a 40 to 45 minute drive from my home; I have been there on several occasions. Our Lady of Guadalupe Abbey normally has the OF in English and I attend there about once a month (family related issues) and have attended Midnight Mass there since 1971, and before that in the late 60’s. Interestingly on their website, they have the text of the Abbot Peter’s homily for Midnight Mass, but the picture is of the Mass on Christmas day. Midnight Mass is SRO, OF, English.

The EF is not reasonably available in Oregon at all; I know there was one celebrated occasionally in Eugene, but I am not sure it is still available. The whole issue is relatively quiet.

For some time we had the OF in Latin at St Patrick’s in Portland on Saturday evening with Schola Cantora (or perhaps it was Cantora Ecclesia) singing the Mass. I always made a point to take our RCIA class to Mass there; while it was not the EF it certainly brought the pomp and circumstance that can be the OF to the front.

If that answers your question to your satisfaction, then we have resolved that. If it doesn’t, then I would suggest that the issue is yours, not mine.
In case you did not know, Cantores in Ecclesia still sings High Mass in Latin (Ordinary Form) at St. Stephen in NE Portland most Saturday Vigils. I liked St. Patrick a little better, but there is one thing the same, you always roast in the summer (no AC), heh. They are at Holy Rosary tonight for Holy Thursday.

cantoresinecclesia.org/pages/main_pages/st_stephens.html
 
Our Lord asks…When the son of man returns, do you think he will find Faith on earth?

The statement he makes is as follows. “Even the Elect would be decieved {at that time] if it were possible”.

I honestly see no-choice in this matter. The only question is when? And what are we waiting for?
 
Then walk your talk here…walk away. I’m not frustrated or angry, yet keep getting accused of it by you and other NO fans. Ignorance is quite the charge coming from someone who can’t prove their point.
Seems to be the case, indeed.
 
In case you did not know, Cantores in Ecclesia still sings High Mass in Latin (Ordinary Form) at St. Stephen in NE Portland most Saturday Vigils. I liked St. Patrick a little better, but there is one thing the same, you always roast in the summer (no AC), heh. They are at Holy Rosary tonight for Holy Thursday.

cantoresinecclesia.org/pages/main_pages/st_stephens.html
I thought they were (permanently) ensconced at Holy Rosary? Do they split between the two parishes, and if they do, is there a regular pattern? Saturday night at St Stephen and Sunday at Holy Rosary?
 
I thought they were (permanently) ensconced at Holy Rosary? Do they split between the two parishes, and if they do, is there a regular pattern? Saturday night at St Stephen and Sunday at Holy Rosary?
Hi otjm. No.

Its just a men’s schola made up of Cantores guys that sings at the 11:00 Mass at Holy Rosary on Sunday mornings. The main home for the choir is St. Stephen. My daughter sings in the choir and was just commenting on how seldom she gets to Holy Rosary anymore, but she’ll be there tonight.
 
Hi otjm. No.

Its just a men’s schola made up of Cantores guys that sings at the 11:00 Mass at Holy Rosary on Sunday mornings. The main home for the choir is St. Stephen. My daughter sings in the choir and was just commenting on how seldom she gets to Holy Rosary anymore, but she’ll be there tonight.
Aha. Well, perhaps we can start over by going to St Stephens. I will check it out. Thanks for the info!
 
Relax, Sport. I am familiar with St. Agnes as well as Our Lady of Sorrows. The choice is yours. No need to put yourself in an uncomfortable place for my amusement. I am prepared to take you at your word if you are prepared to give it.

Do you or do you not sir, solemnly affirm that since the hour of 0715 PDT today, you have assisted in the Extraordinary Form of the Roman Liturgy in a Catholic Church?

You need to call it. I can’t call it for you. It wouldn’t be fair, Friendo.
If you wish to be amused, then amuse yourself because I’m not going to play your infantile games.
None of my business, but it seems to me that Tim addressed the question fairly, and in reasonable charity.
 
Then walk your talk here…walk away. I’m not frustrated or angry, yet keep getting accused of it by you and other NO fans. Ignorance is quite the charge coming from someone who can’t prove their point.
Not sure what the “no” is but I will state this in no uncertain terms.

I LOVE BOTH the OF and the EF Masses. Please don’t try to set-up the false zero-sum game of only being able to like one OR the other. That’s nothing more than ignorant nonsense.

As far as “proving points” you have not done so. You have offered your personal opinion. When it gets rejected you get frustrated and angry.

You’d better warm up to a truth sooner rather than later or you’re going to feel even more frustration and anger. That truth is that we attend the Mass to be at the foot of Calvary where Jesus Christ is offered to his Father for our sins. The salvific grace flowing from that event and the subsequent rendering of His Body, Blood, Soul and Divinity sacramentally present in the Blessed Sacrament is equal no matter what sort of valid Catholic sacrificial liturgy is employed. The different liturgies might go about being the means by which this miracle is realized in different ways, but the result is the same.

To suggest one of those valid sacrificial liturgies is objectively and intrinsically “better” or even “more reverent” in this context is not only ridiculous, it’s downright offensive.
 
You can tell me you prefer the Novus Ordo but to suggest it is just as reverent is absurd. It’s the NO crowd here that gets into a nutty and makes this into a superiority contest. Put the two side by side. One has more prayers, genuflections, signs of the Cross, silence and rubics designed to honour the Lord. There is more Catholic theology in the Usus Antiquor. It is therefore, more reverent.
You can keep insisting that, but it doesn’t make it so. In fact, the Pope’s statements seem quite clearly to imply the opposite, that both are equally efficacious.
My answer to the OP’s question stands: the current state of the Church. Lex orandi, lex credendi. A man-focused, watered down liturgy produces the same in its attendees. Watch the debate when Communion in the hand is defended. No theological reasons, all personal perference from the Me generation.
This is even weaker; what took place took place because of reasons outside the Ordinary Form.
It is indeed the structure of the NO with its options and openness that invites abuse. To have a liturgical form prone to abuse should make all of us question its purpose. No where in the documents of V2 was a new Mass called for.
You talk about options and openness making it prone to abuse, but I don’t agree. The abuses that happen happen because the people involved go off-book and pick their own options. The same spirit that leads to improvisation in the OF leads to improvisation in the EF. And, I should note, that even before Vatican II, some parishes in the United States were celebrating Mass versus populum and distributing communion in the hand. Both of those were way off-reservation at the time, but they happened anyway, almost a decade before the OF was introduced.
If you can offer evidence as to how the NO is just as reverent as the UA I’d be happy to see it. Otherwise this counter argument is nothing more than personal preference and ad homenin attacks.
Actually, this whole tangent is well off-topic, except in that it proves a point. Why do you want to get bogged down in this morass of a debate when your goal is simply to get people to accept the addition of an EF Mass? This isn’t what you want at the parish council. In fact, it would be incredibly counterproductive.

And, by your argument, it would be unnecessary. You have argued that the EF is clearly more reverent, clearly superior. So all you need to do is get it added to the parish and let nature take its course, as people drift to the more reverent Mass.

As to this:
You’ve made that quite clear. Carry on.
You don’t own this thread or this forum. It isn’t your personal soap box, and I’ll continue to respond here as much as I please, seeing as I’m not breaking any rules and I’m not trolling. I have just as much right to continue responding here as you do.
 
You can keep insisting that, but it doesn’t make it so. In fact, the Pope’s statements seem quite clearly to imply the opposite, that both are equally efficacious.

This is even weaker; what took place took place because of reasons outside the Ordinary Form.

You talk about options and openness making it prone to abuse, but I don’t agree. The abuses that happen happen because the people involved go off-book and pick their own options. The same spirit that leads to improvisation in the OF leads to improvisation in the EF. And, I should note, that even before Vatican II, some parishes in the United States were celebrating Mass versus populum and distributing communion in the hand. Both of those were way off-reservation at the time, but they happened anyway, almost a decade before the OF was introduced.

Actually, this whole tangent is well off-topic, except in that it proves a point. Why do you want to get bogged down in this morass of a debate when your goal is simply to get people to accept the addition of an EF Mass? This isn’t what you want at the parish council. In fact, it would be incredibly counterproductive.

And, by your argument, it would be unnecessary. You have argued that the EF is clearly more reverent, clearly superior. So all you need to do is get it added to the parish and let nature take its course, as people drift to the more reverent Mass.

As to this:

You don’t own this thread or this forum. It isn’t your personal soap box, and I’ll continue to respond here as much as I please, seeing as I’m not breaking any rules and I’m not trolling. I have just as much right to continue responding here as you do.
:clapping:
Very nice! 👍
 
I can’t speak for Ockham, but I have the suspicion that he has never been to an Eastern rite liturgy where they pull out all the stops. For pagentry, solemnity, dignity, and sense of the transcendence of God, I can’t think of anything that comes close; certainly not the EF and certainly not the OF. But as far as reverent is concerned, I am not sure that Ockham would find what Christ did this evening so many hundreds of years ago to fit his definition either. It would almost appear that what was good enough for Christ woldn’t be quite enough for him. For beginners, the Canon was almost non-existent. And there were no New Testament readings as they had not been written; the Old Testament readings were for a Passover meal. The liturgy was not the Mass as we know it, but rather the liturgy for the Passover, with the Eucharist inserted into it. And as the Apostles remembered that night, they started with a very bifurcated liturgy, going to the Jewish Sabbath services on Saturday, and having Eucharist without any full-blown Canon on Sunday for years. It was, in fact more simple than the OF. And were they reverent? Well, if I read Paul correctly, abuses had already started before we were hardly out of the gates.

This whole argument that the OF is not as reverant as the EF is, like I said before, hooey. The OF is much simpler than the EF, both in rubrics and in prayers. Is the EF in (sorry, malphono - one of these days I will write it down!) the Low Mass less reverent than the EF in a sung High Mass? That is just silliness. It is no more nor less reverent; it is less complex and has less pagentry. Neither of these are a definition of reverence. If it were, then a Solemn High Mass in the EF would be more reverent than a High Mass, and that is just nonsense. They are all the Mass, along with the Eastern rites in all their variations.

And none of that really answers the question of the OP; we are all getting off track.

In not having an EF reasonably available, I have taken RCIA people (after Easter) to a Byzantine rite liturgy and to a Maronite liturgy, and in the past, to the OF in Latin with a stellar choir. I do not and have not gotten into a “this is better/holier/more reverant than that” routine with any of them; I just said that we were going to experience the different ways the liturgy of the Mass can be celebrated. Most have been nonplused by the means of reception of Communion in the Byzantine rite - a spoon administered by the priest; more than half seemed to prefer the Maronite rite to the Byzantine rite; and some were wowed by the choir at the Latin OF and vowed to go back (they didn’t) and some felt like they had been to a concert (which they liked or didn’t like) and some did not like the OF in Latin (although they had books with which to follow along).

In short, reactions were pretty much across the spectrum. And as to the OP, I would say again, any “argument” is going to work against you. An explanation of what is going on, avoiding a comparison to the OF, should be sufficient. I don’t have to get into a comparison between the OF and the Byzantine or Maronite rite to explain what is going on.
 
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