What is the best argument to promote the TLM?

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The fruits argument is one of the best to promote the TLM. One doesn’t even need to get into the NO’s devastation. Even Fr. Pacwa on EWTN agrees with the evident beautiful fruits of the TLM.

I was answering the original post as stated and my response stands. The Novus Ordo has borne nothing but bad fruit. If someone would refuse to attend the TLM upon being confronted with these facts, then the person is being insincere & stubborn and the fault would not lie in the messenger.

One way or another Catholics need to realize that their local NO Mass is bad for their spiritual health. Keeping silent on the matter only does them a disservice.
 
The Novus Ordo has borne nothing but bad fruit. If someone would refuse to attend the TLM upon being confronted with these facts, then the person is being insincere & stubborn and the fault would not lie in the messenger.
So you’ve won a lot of people over the faith with this approach, huh? 😉 😛

Sorry, I just don’t buy this, and I don’t think I’m the only one. I’m very much in favor of not losing traditional practices, but to blame the OF/NO as producing “nothing but bad fruit” will strike people as either naive or disingenuous, and they will proceed to tune out whatever you say.
 
I’m very much in favor of not losing traditional practices, but to blame the OF/NO as producing “nothing but bad fruit” will strike people as either naive or disingenuous, and they will proceed to tune out whatever you say.
Show me the “good fruits” of VCII and the “OF”.
 
The fruits argument is one of the best to promote the TLM. One doesn’t even need to get into the NO’s devastation. Even Fr. Pacwa on EWTN agrees with the evident beautiful fruits of the TLM.

I was answering the original post as stated and my response stands. The Novus Ordo has borne nothing but bad fruit. If someone would refuse to attend the TLM upon being confronted with these facts, then the person is being insincere & stubborn and the fault would not lie in the messenger.

One way or another Catholics need to realize that their local NO Mass is bad for their spiritual health. Keeping silent on the matter only does them a disservice.
It would appear obvious that a vat number of the Magisterium disagree with you. Having talked with Father Pacwa personally and having listened to him numerous times, I don’t believe that he would ever teach about the EF by tering down the OF; and by the way, he says the OF. As does the Pope. And as does the vast majority of priests theroughout the world.

The OF has borne good fruit; it is just that you appear to be ignorant of it. Attacking it is unlikely to convince much of anyone unfamiliar with the EF that the EF is so superior.
 
It would appear obvious that a vat number of the Magisterium disagree with you. Having talked with Father Pacwa personally and having listened to him numerous times, I don’t believe that he would ever teach about the EF by tering down the OF; and by the way, he says the OF. As does the Pope. And as does the vast majority of priests theroughout the world.

The OF has borne good fruit; it is just that you appear to be ignorant of it. Attacking it is unlikely to convince much of anyone unfamiliar with the EF that the EF is so superior.
I never said Fr. Pacwa attacked the OF. Did you even read what I said?

What good fruit has the OF borne?
 
It The OF has borne good fruit; it is just that you appear to be ignorant of it. Attacking it is unlikely to convince much of anyone unfamiliar with the EF that the EF is so superior.
So answer the question and provide examples.
 
You make a wide swath of accusations against the OF; however, the majority of your accusations are simply post hoc, ergo propter hoc statements with no foundation other than they occured after the OF was introduced; and in fact, a number of them were occuring before the OF was introduced; logically that leads to the conclusion that it was not the OF which was the causitive factor.

People hear these accusations, and without any critical examination of what foundation supposedly lays under them, they repeat the accusation and lo and behold, another urban legend is born…

…After Vatican 2, catechesis got thrown into the toilet and someone flushed, but there is no shown interconnection between the OF and the change from the Baltimore Catechism; that relates directly back to misdirection post Vatican 2 concerning catechesis itself on a separate track, because of the desire of some to get out of a doctrinal approach and into an experiential approach to teaching…

…About the only issue you name that has any connection is the loss of reverence; and that issue has slowly been changing over the last 10 to 15 years, particularly as we have had the ordinations of the group called the John Paul priests. And granted that it has not shown everywhere in all dioceses to an equal amount, it is most definitely occuring; and if it is occuring then not all blame can be laid to the format of the Mass.
It appears you are implying that there is no connection at all between the changes in the liturgy and the life of the Church. You would have to trace the causation elsewhere, but in the meantime, you must attempt to support the extremely erroneous opinion that the liturgy of the Church bears little substantially on Catholics or even not at all. Thus you are reduced to the proposition that the liturgy is essentially superfluous and arbitrary.

Liberals desperately wish to divorce this reality of the interconnection between the faith and spiritual health of Catholics with the liturgy so they can save that wretched experiment. Thus the true logic of your “logic” is a gross theological error. The formation of the spirit by the liturgy, and the bad effects of a false liturgy, transcend all logical category. But really it is more of a general observation regarding the fruits of both liturgies, and thus to point out a specific divergence from this general observation is to entirely miss the point.

You offer your own personal anecdote in order to bolster this divorce, but short of deeper probing, it amounts to very little in the way of actual evidence, either quantitatively or qualitatively. If in fact all those Catholics left because of some other cause, you would be hard pressed to deny that the changes had no effect at all. You must act as if drastic changes in the Church, e.g. in the liturgy, and changes or shifts within the faithful have absolutely no relation.

You point out that the currents of change existed prior to the Council. No one disputes this, the revolutionaries didn’t just arrive at the Council. And the SC contains the seeds of revolution, the real problem is the work of the Concilium itself. Even if Catholics were not affected at all by the radical changes of the liturgy, it still stands that the liturgy itself was based upon false principles. The admission of the Secretary of the Concilium that they intended on stripping the Mass of Catholic elements so as not to give offense to heretics is sufficient evidence that an unspeakable crime was committed in the name of ecumenism. No Catholic, who understands what it means to be Catholic, could passively accept this proposition.

But I would argue that the same spirit that formed the new liturgy, a spirit that renounced the divine wisdom contained in the ecclesiastical tradition of the Church, is the primary cause of the exodus of Catholics. For if the hierarchy could abandon tradition in the name of a new orientation, those that were already losing their faith to the spirit of the world simply followed suit. The causation is reciprocal. Their work was a form of iconoclasm and once the forms devoloped over time were negated, there was little left remaining to at least extrinsically form the faithful themselves.

And one really wonders what kind of “catechesis” is being promoted that will supposedly save the Church and bring back lost souls. God help them if it serves only to entrench the habits of the novus ordo structure itself. For if it retains even a shred of that spirit which ultimately was responsible for this universal crisis, it is a self-defeating proposition. To turn your logic back on you, you would be deluding yourself, and committing your own post hoc fallacy if you were to think that you are bringing souls back into the Church on the basis of your “revival” work. And to mention that “reverence” is coming back with regard to a rite and spirit that detested reverence for all that is holy is a most comical assertion.

To sum up, you lack any serious or substantial understanding of both causes and effects. You simply fail to grasp the gravity of the darkness pervading the Church, as your comments regarding “John Paul priests” evince. And this in turn is the result of a very superficial spirit, one that is not at all rooted in the tradition of the Church. Anyone who holds John Paul II up as the standard of health in the Church is so extraordinarily deluded, so disoriented, that there is little hope of getting him to see the true nature of the problems.
 
But I would argue that the same spirit that formed the new liturgy, a spirit that renounced the divine wisdom contained in the ecclesiastical tradition of the Church, is the primary cause of the exodus of Catholics.
Then you would be completely wrong. The change in liturgy has never been cited as a cause for those who left the Church after the Vatican II Council, but divorce, the question of birth control and sex outside of marriage has.
To sum up, you lack any serious or substantial understanding of both causes and effects.
I think otjm has cleaned your clock more than once and has shown your "substantial understanding of both causes and effects" as lacking.
 
What good fruit has the OF borne?
As my generation gets older, you will see some of this fruit. I pray that the fruits of my labor is borne at some point. You can also look at the fruits of certain Religious Orders, such as the Dominicans, the Franciscans, the Salesians of Saint John Bosco, and the Companions of the Cross and see the fruits they have brought.

On a personal note…for two years I’ve doing R.C.I.T. (RCIA for teens). I instruct them as the enter the Church. For the last seven years or so I’ve been active in youth ministry. With that one line above, (and I’m being serious as I say this) and with your comment on the OF, you have just told me I’ve been wasting my time. Wasting my life, even. That these years of efforts have borne nothing at all.

If I’m not mistaken, you’ve essentially called me a failure. And a heretic too most likely.
 
Then you would be completely wrong. The change in liturgy has never been cited as a cause for those who left the Church after the Vatican II Council,.
Tim, you are far too intelligent to trumpet that refrain. Please reconsider the past forty years in light of the changes to the liturgy and culture in general.
 
Tim, you are far too intelligent to trumpet that refrain. Please reconsider the past forty years in light of the changes to the liturgy and culture in general.
I’m speaking of the laity. I have read on many occasions that Humanae Vitae had more to do with people leaving the Church than anything else, along with the affirmation against divorce. The secular culture of the world overflowed its banks in the 1960s and drenched everything, which has much more to do with the dress and the attitudes of the average Catholic in Church today than any change in the liturgy. Though I am sure that there were some who were not thrilled with the change to the vernacular (J.R.R. Tolken comes to mind), most people thought that the liturgy in the vernacular was the “best thing the Church ever did,” and that was coming from those who grew up on the latin Mass.

I still do not believe that the change of the liturgy to the vernacular was the “cause” of so many leaving the Church. As has been mentioned before, that trend had actually began in the 1950s.
 
Ah, good explanation. Yes, the sexual revolution had a significant impact on the Church. In hindsight perhaps it would have been better to stick to our ground rather than acquiesce and appease the modern trends.

I’ve seen some people suggest the Novus Ordo was the best thing that could have happened to our liturgy given the upcoming cultural storm. Perhaps the best way to preserve tradtition was to isolate it from harm, bringing in a new form inherently condusive to abuse.
 
So answer the question and provide examples.
How is it possible? The only answer that I can possibly give is my current parish at college, my parish at home, my high school, my elementary school, and the priests and laypeople that I know. I can’t show you that. I can’t win argument with that. All I can do is say it, but to you it would be meaningless because you can’t see it.
 
I’ve seen some people suggest the Novus Ordo was the best thing that could have happened to our liturgy given the upcoming cultural storm. Perhaps the best way to preserve tradtition was to isolate it from harm, bringing in a new form inherently condusive to abuse.
You make a lot of assertions with no proof. A priest doing whatever he wants is doing whatever he wants. There are no directions that are more or less prone to disobedience; all directions ultimately rely on the obedience of the people reading them. A priest who changes the words of the consecration in the OF who is forced to say the EF will proceed to read the consecration in English and change the words just like he was going to in the OF.

You can say “If he’s facing the altar instead of the people, he won’t do any of that because it would be meaningless”, but he’d face the people to do what he wanted. Disobedience is disobedience; the problems and the solutions have been about people.
 
The argument regarding the radical changes in the liturgy stands on sound theological and spiritual principle. On the other hand, you are citing facts gratuitiously without addressing a root cause. No one suggests that the changes in the liturgy were the soul cause of the crisis of faith and of people leaving the Church, but is most obviously an aggravating factor. On the other hand, if the reform was instituted by pious, wise and faithful men who adhered to tradition, no one could cite it as having deleterious. Even if this or that soul left because they didn’t agree with a moral doctrine or were simply attached to sin, it doesn’t follow at all that there were multiple motives at play. In fact, I doubt that hardly anyone explicitly understood they were leaving because of the liturgy. To cite other purely evil motives as somehow proving that the liturgy was perfectly blameless is simply a form of special pleading. But what is I think worse is the scenario where people stayed and became depraved by the new spirit of the new liturgy. The totality of these perverted souls ends by forming an enormous pseudo-church comprised of sentimental humanists that eclipses the true Church obscuring Her identity.
 
But what is I think worse is the scenario where people stayed and** became depraved **by the new spirit of the new liturgy. The totality of these perverted souls ends by forming an enormous pseudo-church comprised of sentimental humanists that eclipses the true Church obscuring Her identity.
My God, man; you are the most judgmental person that I have ever witnessed here. Do you ever run out of labels with which you charge, try and convict others?
 
How is it possible?
You’ve quoted a question poised to another person, what are the good fruits of the NO.

Regarding my “assertion” I made no such thing. A couple times I’ve seen people suggest the Novus Ordo was created to divert the rebellious liturgists away from the Mass of all time. If that was the reason then I applaud it otherwise I have no idea why it was created.
 
You’ve quoted a question poised to another person, what are the good fruits of the NO.
And I answered it. People are allowed to do that in a public forum.
Regarding my “assertion” I made no such thing. A couple times I’ve seen people suggest the Novus Ordo was created to divert the rebellious liturgists away from the Mass of all time. If that was the reason then I applaud it otherwise I have no idea why it was created.
You very much made an assertion: that the OF is inherently open to abuse. And its an inaccurate one.
 
I have been the main mover behind starting a TLM in my parish. We have a great group of people but we are struggling to grow.

What in your experience is the best argument to support the TLM?
Malleus: Prayer , Fasting , Penance , Suffering , Sacrifice , Mortification.
 
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