What is the book of Mormon all about

  • Thread starter Thread starter Bill_Pick
  • Start date Start date
Status
Not open for further replies.
solomonspalding.com/Lib/Jock2008.htm

I refused to totally buy into the Spalding Theory until that study was published. And I do know some statistics.

The BOM was written in bad KJE. Subject-verb disagreements are common. And the frequency of those errors in various ‘books’ also gives a clue to authorship.
 
Jerusha said:
I refused to totally buy into the Spalding Theory until that “study” was published. And I do know some statistics.

The BOM was written in bad KJE. Subject-verb disagreements are common. And the frequency of those errors in various ‘books’ also gives a clue to authorship.
Click to expand...
Hi, Jerusha,
'Hope you’re doing well. Do you actually have the full study? The citation is only an abstract, and a poor one at that. If that is an example of their scholarship, then I wouldn’t spend a penny on their supposed research. Computer output is based on what one puts into the (name removed by moderator)ut, especially as regards statistical analysis. (You know that, of course.)

I don’t suppose you trust every study published by every supposed scholar in academia?
Have a good day.
 
Finrock said:
Good afternoon Catholic20064. I hope you are doing well today! 🙂

Thanks for providing that information. Anyone interested in accurate information as what Mormons actually believe regarding the Book of Mormon and how it came about, should look to the sources you provided.

Kind Regards,
Finrock
Click to expand...
Only, Mormons actually believe stuff that isn’t found at those sources.
 
Hi RebeccaJ! I’m not sure if I’ve said this already to you today, but I hope you are doing well! 🙂
RebeccaJ said:
Only, Mormons actually believe stuff that isn’t found at those sources.
Click to expand...
My understanding of the topic of this thread and what I posted about to Catholic20064, was the Book of Mormon, not all Mormon beliefs. Mormon.org and lds.org (which Catholic20064 also provided) gives an accurate and complete picture of how Mormons view the Book of Mormon and where it came from. But, even so, between lds.org and mormon.org, you will find every official and true Mormon doctrine and teaching.

Kind Regards,
Finrock
 
Why wouldn’t God inspire Joseph Smith in the translation of the Book of Mormon, using “Elizabethan English”? “Elizabethan English” is a treasure in itself to the world. God knows that. Shakespeare (or de Vere) had to have been inspired in his writing, it is so rich and powerful and moving. So is the KJV Bible translation. It is a wonder of the world. I think one of the things God wants us to do in the world is to preserve good language, for it enriches multiple generations and that is important to God’s purposes.
Click to expand...
That’s a lot of window dressing for the Kings English.

I would think it more appropriate to say that Joseph Smith liked the KJV and used it in the BOM. God had no part in this farce as you will learn one day.
 
Hi, Rick,
We of course would differ on our belief in the origin of the Book of Mormon, you and I.

Since I’ve read the Bible many times and earnestly love it the more I read it, and since I’ve read the Book of Mormon many, many times and earnestly love it also, and recognize the voice of the good Shepherd and the spirit of revelation coming through loud and clear in both, and have prayed about the Book of Mormon as to whether it is inspired by God, then I would have to say that my experience is more extensive than yours on this topic.

If you’ll re-read 1 Corinthians 2 and think about what Paul was wanting all followers of the Gospel to understand about revelation through the Holy Ghost and the process of spiritual discernment as compared with the “words which man’s wisdom teacheth,” then you’ll at least have a glimpse into what I am talking about. Otherwise, it will remain a mystery to you.
 
ParkerD said:
Hi, Cody,
I read the little article you cited from the Baptist minister who wrote it. What perhaps each of you fail to understand is that evidence that the Book of Mormon has phrases just like the Bible only validates my original statement on this thread–that the Nephite prophets used the Brass Plates which contained writings from Old World prophets–plus that they also had the spirit of revelation which gave them the inspired words of God, so there are several more fully treated religious doctrines (such as “opposition in all things” and the full scope of the atonement of Jesus Christ) in the Book of Mormon.

Why wouldn’t God inspire Joseph Smith in the translation of the Book of Mormon, using “Elizabethan English”? “Elizabethan English” is a treasure in itself to the world. God knows that. Shakespeare (or de Vere) had to have been inspired in his writing, it is so rich and powerful and moving. So is the KJV Bible translation. It is a wonder of the world. I think one of the things God wants us to do in the world is to preserve good language, for it enriches multiple generations and that is important to God’s purposes.

The little article puzzled me in saying the Book of Mormon has “no heart”. Evidently, the author who was so familiar with the Bible, read only Moroni (the final prophet-writer of the book) and either skimmed the rest or didn’t read it at all, because the Book of Mormon has authentic emotion on page after page by writers with sincerity and an urgency you can feel. They were aware of our day, our time, our challenges, as they wrote about their day and time and challenges. The Book of Mormon is truly a message from God to those people in our day who seek additional knowledge from God alongside the knowledge He inspired through the gift He gave the world of the Holy Bible.
Click to expand...
Apparently Reformed Egyptian wasn’t one of those languages that God wanted to preserve…oh right it never existed in the first place.
 
Stouts989 said:
Apparently Reformed Egyptian wasn’t one of those languages that God wanted to preserve…oh right it never existed in the first place.
Click to expand...
Hi, Stouts,
Moroni actually said reformed Egyptian took less space to convey the thoughts of the writer than Hebrew; otherwise, the plates would have been transcribed in the Hebrew language. Here is a quote about that in Mormon 8:

27 O then despise not, and wonder not, but hearken unto the words of the Lord, and ask the Father in the name of Jesus for what things soever ye shall stand in need. Doubt not, but be believing, and begin as in times of old, and come unto the Lord with all your heart, and work out your own salvation with fear and trembling before him.
28 Be wise in the days of your probation; strip yourselves of all uncleanness; ask not, that ye may consume it on your lusts, but ask with a firmness unshaken, that ye will yield to no temptation, but that ye will serve the true and living God.
29 See that ye are not baptized unworthily; see that ye partake not of the sacrament of Christ unworthily; but see that ye do all things in worthiness, and do it in the name of Jesus Christ, the Son of the living God; and if ye do this, and endure to the end, ye will in nowise be cast out.
30 Behold, I speak unto you as though I spake from the dead; for I know that ye shall have my words.
31 Condemn me not because of mine imperfection, neither my father, because of his imperfection, neither them who have written before him; but rather give thanks unto God that he hath made manifest unto you our imperfections, that ye may learn to be more wise than we have been.
32 And now, behold, we have written this record according to our knowledge, in the characters which are called among us the reformed Egyptian, being handed down and altered by us, according to our manner of speech.
33 And if our plates had been sufficiently large we should have written in Hebrew; but the Hebrew hath been altered by us also; and if we could have written in Hebrew, behold, ye would have had no imperfection in our record.
 
This may sound strange, but one of the most concise and understandable descriptions of how Joseph Smith came to write the BOM was done by the producers of the cable cartoon series South Park. If you FF past the crude language by the main characters (which has nothing to do with the story), and stick with the “flashback” story, it is surprisingly clear. From the main page, just type “Mormons” in the search block.

southparkstudios.com/
 
ParkerD said:
Hi, Rick,
We of course would differ on our belief in the origin of the Book of Mormon, you and I.

Since I’ve read the Bible many times and earnestly love it the more I read it, and since I’ve read the Book of Mormon many, many times and earnestly love it also, and recognize the voice of the good Shepherd and the spirit of revelation coming through loud and clear in both, and have prayed about the Book of Mormon as to whether it is inspired by God, then I would have to say that my experience is more extensive than yours on this topic.

If you’ll re-read 1 Corinthians 2 and think about what Paul was wanting all followers of the Gospel to understand about revelation through the Holy Ghost and the process of spiritual discernment as compared with the “words which man’s wisdom teacheth,” then you’ll at least have a glimpse into what I am talking about. Otherwise, it will remain a mystery to you.
Click to expand...
Parker
Please refer to the bold above in your post. Basically you are saying that you are better than I in the knowledge of the subject and that you have the Holy Spirit where I have…nothing? I believe that was the attitude of the Pharisees when they looked down upon others with their “holier than thou” attitude. Jesus didn’t like them either.

It seems that you believe that the Mormons are the only ones that have the Holy Spirit as you use that a lot in your posts. You (the Mormons) also use that excuse to justify your outrages beliefs. I can’t say for sure that the Holy Spirit has guided me in all my posts on this forum, I hope He has. But I can say without a doubt that He has bestowed on me the ability to reason things out in an objective way. I have also been endowed with the gift of common sense, also from the Holy Spirit. Now I don’t feel a “burning in the bosom” Parker and I don’t hear voices but I am able to use the gifts He has given me. Using those gifts from the Holy Spirit I can say without a doubt that the religion of Latter Day Saints is not of God, is contrary to the Word of God and is a false religion formed in the mind of Joseph Smith.
 
Rick,
OK, I assume you have the Holy Spirit in your life. Enjoy what He guides you to enjoy, and I’ll enjoy what He guides me to enjoy. (I have never said nor implied that Catholics don’t have the Holy Spirit.)

Paul was bold in defending his faith, and used his experiences to explain where he was coming from. That is the approach I was trying to convey. You have a fine church, and if you read the Bible, that’s great. I read it, too. Bye.
 
ParkerD said:
Hi, Stouts,
Moroni actually said reformed Egyptian took less space to convey the thoughts of the writer than Hebrew; otherwise, the plates would have been transcribed in the Hebrew language. Here is a quote about that in Mormon 8:

27 O then despise not, and wonder not, but hearken unto the words of the Lord, and ask the Father in the name of Jesus for what things soever ye shall stand in need. Doubt not, but be believing, and begin as in times of old, and come unto the Lord with all your heart, and work out your own salvation with fear and trembling before him.
Click to expand...
Hmmmm, this sounds familiar…where have we heard this before? Oh, I know! it’s Jesus in John 20:27 “Put your finger here; see my hands. Reach out your hand and put it into my side. Stop doubting and believe.”

…and Paul in Philippians 2:12. "Therefore, my dear friends, as you have always obeyed—not only in my presence, but now much more in my absence—continue to work out your salvation with fear and trembling,

As utterly fantastic as the BOM is, and as exceedingly unlikely as its advent was, it is completely eclipsed by the absolute lack of definition of the “great apostasy”. The entire LDS churh stands solely upon the concept of the apostasy. Unfortunately, the LDS provides no solid evidence of the who, what, when, where or why of this historic, earth-changing “great” apostasy - only the claim that it happened and a restoration was needed. I note that all “restoration” or “adventist” churches have developed the most non-historic and innovative doctrines in religion. All of them also exist in the post-ascension time of false prophets, false christs and antichrists.

The Holy Spirit always unites.
The demon always divides.
 
Have you ever noticed the Jesus in the Book of Mormon is completely different from the Jesus in the New Testament. The Jesus in the New Testament is humble, forgiving, preaches peace, doesn’t destroy anything and finally dies on a cross before his resurrection. The one in America starts out destroying all of the evil people and the cities, etc. He could have simply shown up without destroying anything or anyone and converted the whole population peacefully, but instead he right off destroys all of the bad guys without giving them a real chance to repent. Seems there are two different Jesus’ here and I know which one makes the most sense in light of what we know about Jesus’ ministry in the New Testament. Jesus seems to go schizophrenic in the Book of Mormon and does the exact opposite of what he has been preaching in the New Testament.
 
Catholic20064 said:
Have you ever noticed the Jesus in the Book of Mormon is completely different from the Jesus in the New Testament. The Jesus in the New Testament is humble, forgiving, preaches peace, doesn’t destroy anything and finally dies on a cross before his resurrection. The one in America starts out destroying all of the evil people and the cities, etc. He could have simply shown up without destroying anything or anyone and converted the whole population peacefully, but instead he right off destroys all of the bad guys without giving them a real chance to repent. Seems there are two different Jesus’ here and I know which one makes the most sense in light of what we know about Jesus’ ministry in the New Testament. Jesus seems to go schizophrenic in the Book of Mormon and does the exact opposite of what he has been preaching in the New Testament.
Click to expand...
Hi, Catholic20064 and other readers,
Good point about the difference, and what it might represent. When He was among the Jews, Jesus was among a group of people who had teachers but they didn’t really understand what they were teaching even though they used the Torah. Jesus was very forgiving and understanding to those people, and some repented and followed Him and understood that He fulfilled the law and the prophets.

In the Americas, there was a small group of people who had had prophets among them teaching about the coming of Jesus Christ during their lifetime, that He would be born in the area around Jerusalem and would live a sinless life and would be crucified for all humankind and be resurrected. These people had full understanding about the mission of Jesus Christ because they had been taught. Some listened, some turned away or fought the message.

Those who fought the message could be likened to people at the time of the Second Coming of Jesus Christ who will not be prepared for His coming and will be fighting the message, and the Bible is very clear about what is going to happen. The Book of Mormon prophets had given the people many, many warnings. Some heeded, some did not. Those who did not heed, and fought against, were destroyed by cataclysmic events in the area where they lived. The righteous and those who did not “fight against” were spared from destruction. Then Christ appeared to them, taught them, and blessed their lives and the lives of their children. So it will be again…
 
ParkerD said:
Hi, Catholic20064 and other readers,
Good point about the difference, and what it might represent. When He was among the Jews, Jesus was among a group of people who had teachers but they didn’t really understand what they were teaching even though they used the Torah.
Click to expand...
Jews understood, and still understand, what they are teaching. That is a very odd statement to say they do not. They understand very well the prophecies of a Messiah. They did not (and do not) believe Jesus is the Messiah.
 
RebeccaJ said:
Jews understood, and still understand, what they are teaching. That is a very odd statement to say they do not. They understand very well the prophecies of a Messiah. They did not (and do not) believe Jesus is the Messiah.
Click to expand...
Rebecca,
Hi and good day to you. One of Jesus’ teachings to the Jews was that He fulfilled the prophecies they were familiar with about the coming of their Messiah. Here are two examples:

John 8:53 Art thou greater than our father Abraham, which is dead? and the prophets are dead: whom makest thou thyself?
54 Jesus answered, If I honour myself, my honour is nothing: it is my Father that honoureth me; of whom ye say, that he is your God:
55 Yet ye have not known him; but I know him: and if I should say, I know him not, I shall be a liar like unto you: but I know him, and keep his saying.
56 Your father Abraham rejoiced to see my day: and he saw it, and was glad.
57 Then said the Jews unto him, Thou art not yet fifty years old, and hast thou seen Abraham?
58 Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was, I am.
59 Then took they up stones to cast at him: but Jesus hid himself, and went out of the temple, going through the midst of them, and so passed by.

Luke 4:16 And he came to Nazareth, where he had been brought up: and, as his custom was, he went into the synagogue on the sabbath day, and stood up for to read.
17 And there was delivered unto him the book of the prophet Esaias. And when he had opened the book, he found the place where it was written,
18 The Spirit of the Lord is upon me, because he hath anointed me to preach the gospel to the poor; he hath sent me to heal the brokenhearted, to preach deliverance to the captives, and recovering of sight to the blind, to set at liberty them that are bruised,
19 To preach the acceptable year of the Lord.
20 And he closed the book, and he gave it again to the minister, and sat down. And the eyes of all them that were in the synagogue were fastened on him.
21 And he began to say unto them, This day is this scripture fulfilled in your ears.

If they had understood the “prophecies of a Messiah” they would have recognized that He was the fulfillment of those prophecies. Some did, but most did not.
 
ParkerD said:
Rebecca,
Hi and good day to you. One of Jesus’ teachings to the Jews was that He fulfilled the prophecies they were familiar with about the coming of their Messiah. Here are two examples:

John 8:53 Art thou greater than our father Abraham, which is dead? and the prophets are dead: whom makest thou thyself?
54 Jesus answered, If I honour myself, my honour is nothing: it is my Father that honoureth me; of whom ye say, that he is your God:
55 Yet ye have not known him; but I know him: and if I should say, I know him not, I shall be a liar like unto you: but I know him, and keep his saying.
56 Your father Abraham rejoiced to see my day: and he saw it, and was glad.
57 Then said the Jews unto him, Thou art not yet fifty years old, and hast thou seen Abraham?
58 Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was, I am.
59 Then took they up stones to cast at him: but Jesus hid himself, and went out of the temple, going through the midst of them, and so passed by.

Luke 4:16 And he came to Nazareth, where he had been brought up: and, as his custom was, he went into the synagogue on the sabbath day, and stood up for to read.
17 And there was delivered unto him the book of the prophet Esaias. And when he had opened the book, he found the place where it was written,
18 The Spirit of the Lord is upon me, because he hath anointed me to preach the gospel to the poor; he hath sent me to heal the brokenhearted, to preach deliverance to the captives, and recovering of sight to the blind, to set at liberty them that are bruised,
19 To preach the acceptable year of the Lord.
20 And he closed the book, and he gave it again to the minister, and sat down. And the eyes of all them that were in the synagogue were fastened on him.
21 And he began to say unto them, This day is this scripture fulfilled in your ears.

If they had understood the “prophecies of a Messiah” they would have recognized that He was the fulfillment of those prophecies. Some did, but most did not.
Click to expand...
Parker, they understood very well the prophecies. They did not accept that Jesus is the Messiah.

John 8
24 So the Jews gathered around him and said to him, “How long are you going to keep us in suspense? If you are the Messiah, tell us plainly.” 25 Jesus answered them, "I told you and you do not believe. The works I do in my Father’s name testify to me. 26 But you do not believe, because you are not among my sheep. 27 My sheep hear my voice; I know them, and they follow me. 28 I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish. No one can take them out of my hand.
 
RebeccaJ said:
Parker, they understood very well the prophecies. They did not accept that Jesus is the Messiah.

John 8
24 So the Jews gathered around him and said to him, “How long are you going to keep us in suspense? If you are the Messiah, tell us plainly.” 25 Jesus answered them, "I told you and you do not believe. The works I do in my Father’s name testify to me. 26 But you do not believe, because you are not among my sheep. 27 My sheep hear my voice; I know them, and they follow me. 28 I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish. No one can take them out of my hand.
Click to expand...
Rebecca,
I guess we are using the word “understood” with different meanings. I used the word with the connotation in my mind of “achieved a grasp of the nature and significance” or the “meaning” of the prophecies. It is the kind of understanding that Jesus conveyed on the road to Emmaus to two of His disciples (Luke 24):

25 Then he said unto them, O fools, and slow of heart to believe all that the prophets have spoken:
26 Ought not Christ to have suffered these things, and to enter into his glory?
27 And beginning at Moses and all the prophets, he expounded unto them in all the scriptures the things concerning himself.
28 And they drew nigh unto the village, whither they went: and he made as though he would have gone further.
29 But they constrained him, saying, Abide with us: for it is toward evening, and the day is far spent. And he went in to tarry with them.
30 And it came to pass, as he sat at meat with them, he took bread, and blessed it, and brake, and gave to them.
31 And their eyes were opened, and they knew him; and he vanished out of their sight.
32 And they said one to another, Did not our heart burn within us, while he talked with us by the way, and while he opened to us the scriptures?
 
hi Parker, what is conveyed is not that they did not understand the prophecies of the Messiah. They did not connect Jesus to the fulfillment of these prophecies. He helps them (and us) make the connection.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top