What is the book of Mormon all about

[ricko]

There are two different Jesus’s here. The one in the bible is the true Jesus who taught love. The one in the Book of Mormon acts different and shows a violent nature because he is a product of the mind of Joseph Smith.

Jesus never appeared to anyone in the Americas as there were no great cities with people in them. He appeared at one time and at one point in history. The bible is proof of that. The BOM is proof of nothing except that there will always be people that can be duped into believing almost anything under the sun as long as some guy says that he is a prophet of god and has seen angels and Jesus, etc. etc.

 

[ParkerD]

Those unfamiliar with Biblical prophecy concerning the cataclysmic events prior to the Second Coming, could read here:

Luke 21:11 And great earthquakes shall be in divers places, and famines, and pestilences; and fearful sights and great signs shall there be from heaven.

25 And there shall be signs in the sun, and in the moon, and in the stars; and upon the earth distress of nations, with perplexity; the sea and the waves roaring;
26 Men’s hearts failing them for fear, and for looking after those things which are coming on the earth: for the powers of heaven shall be shaken.
27 And then shall they see the Son of man coming in a cloud with power and great glory.
28 And when these things begin to come to pass, then look up, and lift up your heads; for your redemption draweth nigh.

Revelation 16:18 And there were voices, and thunders, and lightnings; and there was a great earthquake, such as was not since men were upon the earth, so mighty an earthquake, and so great.
19 And the great city was divided into three parts, and the cities of the nations fell: and great Babylon came in remembrance before God, to give unto her the cup of the wine of the fierceness of his wrath.
20 And every island fled away, and the mountains were not found.
21 And there fell upon men a great hail out of heaven, every stone about the weight of a talent: and men blasphemed God because of the plague of the hail; for the plague thereof was exceeding great.

Revelation 18:10 Alas, alas, that great city Babylon, that mighty city! for in one hour is thy judgment come.
11 And the merchants of the earth shall weep and mourn over her; for no man buyeth their merchandise any more:
12 The merchandise of gold, and silver, and precious stones, and of pearls, and fine linen, and purple, and silk, and scarlet, and all thyine wood, and all manner vessels of ivory, and all manner vessels of most precious wood, and of brass, and iron, and marble,
13 And cinnamon, and odours, and ointments, and frankincense, and wine, and oil, and fine flour, and wheat, and beasts, and sheep, and horses, and chariots, and slaves, and souls of men.
14 And the fruits that thy soul lusted after are departed from thee, and all things which were dainty and goodly are departed from thee, and thou shalt find them no more at all.
15 The merchants of these things, which were made rich by her, shall stand afar off for the fear of her torment, weeping and wailing,
16 And saying, Alas, alas, that great city, that was clothed in fine linen, and purple, and scarlet, and decked with gold, and precious stones, and pearls!
17 For in one hour so great riches is come to nought. And every shipmaster, and all the company in ships, and sailors, and as many as trade by sea, stood afar off,
18 And cried when they saw the smoke of her burning, saying, What city is like unto this great city!
19 And they cast dust on their heads, and cried, weeping and wailing, saying, Alas, alas, that great city, wherein were made rich all that had ships in the sea by reason of her costliness! for in one hour is she made desolate.

It would seem to me to be a good idea to be familiar with these prophecies and be aware of the need to be prepared. But, everyone can choose for themselves…

 

[RebeccaJ]

Parker - weren’t we talking about Jesus appearing in the BoM, not the second coming?

In regards to the second coming, it is Catholic teaching to always be prepared.

 

[ParkerD]

Parker - weren’t we talking about Jesus appearing in the BoM, not the second coming?

In regards to the second coming, it is Catholic teaching to always be prepared.

Rebecca,
The inference that Catholic20064 seemed to want to discuss was whether Jesus would ever allow or perhaps even cause natural catastrophic events in fulfillment of prophecy and warnings to people before the events happen.

I had replied that the coming of Christ to a group of people in a place in the Americas, after destructive forces of nature had occurred, can be compared in similarity with the destructive forces of nature that are prophesied in the Bible as something to prepare for prior to the Second Coming of Christ.

The point in the Book of Mormon was that those people had been warned repeatedly, but some didn’t heed the warnings and were unprepared.

 

[RebeccaJ]

While serving his ministry before His death and resurrection, Jesus did not destroy any group of people. None. It is out of character with the teaching of the NT, is the point. He taught meekness, holiness, love and obedience. He taught He came to “save the world, not to condemn it”.

After a time (which only the Father knows) Jesus will come again to judge the living and the dead. You list prophecies for this event (the second coming), which is a different event than the Incarnation.

The BoM relates an event where Jesus condemns rather than saves, which is outside the prophecies of the OT coming of a Messiah (to save), or the NT prophecies of when He would return (to judge).

 

[ricko]

Parker, as Rebecca said, Catholics don’t get all worked up about the second coming or the end of the world. We know it’s going to happen and there’s nothing anyone can do about it. Catholics prepare themselves everyday for our natural death and judgment which could come at any moment. For those of us who die, that will be the end of our world.

 

[Finrock]

Good evening RebeccaJ! I hope you’ve been doing well.

While serving his ministry before His death and resurrection, Jesus did not destroy any group of people. None. It is out of character with the teaching of the NT, is the point. He taught meekness, holiness, love and obedience. He taught He came to “save the world, not to condemn it”.

After a time (which only the Father knows) Jesus will come again to judge the living and the dead. You list prophecies for this event (the second coming), which is a different event than the Incarnation.

The BoM relates an event where Jesus condemns rather than saves, which is outside the prophecies of the OT coming of a Messiah (to save), or the NT prophecies of when He would return (to judge).

First, it should be understood that the upheavals and storms in the Book of Mormon were prophesied events as a sign of the crucifixion of the Savior. Also, the Book of Mormon account is of a resurrected and glorified Jesus visiting the Americas. This is obviously quite different than how He appeared to the people in Palestine. The way He appeared to the Nephites, as a resurrected and glorified being, is in the same way that He will appear during the Second Coming.

Anyways, this whole argument put up by Catholic20064 and currently being perpetuated is kinda silly, in my opinion, because taken to it’s logical conclusion, if it condemns the Mormons it condemns the rest of Christianity too. God destroys the wicked. He’s done it in the past, He’ll do it in the future. In each case, the people are given fair warning to repent and to change their life around. In the case of the Nephites, they had roughly 600 years of warning, with continual testimonies of prophets warning them until the last hour.

Furthermore, Jesus’ time in the Americas, although shorter in duration, was spent teaching the same gospel He taught in the Old World. For roughly 27 chapters after the great destructions, are recorded probably some of the most tender moments that I have read of Jesus showing forth His love and mercy. He teaches and instructs. He performs many of the same miracles for the Nephites as He did for those during His mortal ministry; healing the sick, the lame, the blind. He prays for them, directs them, and weeps because of His love for them. It truly is hard for me to imagine that anyone who has honestly read the Book of Mormon, particularly the 27 chapters that speak of Jesus’ time in Americas, would think that Jesus in the Book of Mormon has a “violent nature.”

Kind Regards,
Finrock

 

[RebeccaJ]

Anyways, this whole argument put up by Catholic20064 and currently being perpetuated is kinda silly, in my opinion, because taken to it’s logical conclusion, if it condemns the Mormons it condemns the rest of Christianity too. God destroys the wicked. He’s done it in the past, He’ll do it in the future. In each case, the people are given fair warning to repent and to change their life around. In the case of the Nephites, they had roughly 600 years of warning, with continual testimonies of prophets warning them until the last hour.

You still missed it. Jesus came into the world to save it, not to condemn it. He teaches this, why do you not believe Him?

All I can see is that you must contradict this teaching in order to support your BoM. There is no need to give an erroneous comparions to Christianity. Just because God destroys the wicked, does not mean He did not send us, the wicked, a Savior. As certainly you understand Finrock, all people sin.

What you would like us to believe is that after HIs resurrection, He changed His mind. He did come to condemn, after all.

Furthermore, Jesus’ time in the Americas, although shorter in duration, was spent teaching the same gospel He taught in the Old World. For roughly 27 chapters after the great destructions, are recorded probably some of the most tender moments that I have read of Jesus showing forth His love and mercy. He teaches and instructs. He performs many of the same miracles for the Nephites as He did for those during His mortal ministry; healing the sick, the lame, the blind. He prays for them, directs them, and weeps because of His love for them. It truly is hard for me to imagine that anyone who has honestly read the Book of Mormon, particularly the 27 chapters that speak of Jesus’ time in Americas, would think that Jesus in the Book of Mormon has a “violent nature.”

Yes, the BoM has many plagiarisms from the Bible. Unfortunately, it has modified the Gospel message.

(A side note, but what comes to my mind from what you write. The saddest thing is this love you have for Jesus, you can never actually tell Him as your religion forbids it.)

 

[ParkerD]

While serving his ministry before His death and resurrection, Jesus did not destroy any group of people. None. It is out of character with the teaching of the NT, is the point. He taught meekness, holiness, love and obedience. He taught He came to “save the world, not to condemn it”.

After a time (which only the Father knows) Jesus will come again to judge the living and the dead. You list prophecies for this event (the second coming), which is a different event than the Incarnation.

The BoM relates an event where Jesus condemns rather than saves, which is outside the prophecies of the OT coming of a Messiah (to save), or the NT prophecies of when He would return (to judge).

Rebecca,
Thanks for this discussion. Up until now, I had had the impression that Catholics were saying people like me might be in danger of “condemnation.” I certainly do believe the Savior came to save the world, not to condemn the world. We are agreed! Thanks.

 

[po18guy]

Rebecca,
Thanks for this discussion. Up until now, I had had the impression that Catholics were saying people like me might be in danger of “condemnation.” I certainly do believe the Savior came to save the world, not to condemn the world. We are agreed! Thanks.

Hey! Not so fast there! I see an LDS pattern of rushing to agree with mainstream Christian ideas, even though the definition of the terms is radically different. It is clear that the LDS worships a different god from the Christian God. Why? Because the LDS god is not eternal and is only one of many gods. The LDS Jesus is not eternal. BIG difference, no matter how much you think we agree on things.

Short story: You actually are in spiritual danger, as you remain outside of the Body of Christ. The LDS baptism is in the name of a trinity that is vastly different in substance from the Christian trinity. That is why the Catholic Church does not recognize LDS baptisms.

 

[ParkerD]

Po18Guy or Rebecca,
Spiritual danger of what?
Why?
Says who?
When?
How will the spiritual danger happen?
By whom will it happen?

 

[alexaustralia]

I am pretty sure this has already been covered plenty of times but here goes again …

Mormonism, JWs and Islam have a common belief and I suggest you concentrate on it to determine their validity.

They all believe Jesus preached exclusively mormon/JW/muslim doctrine but in a short period of time the early church instituted by Jesus was corrupted which gave rise to a total apostasy. Due to this total apostasy God needed to restore his Church by selecting a prophet who would instruct people back to God’s true “church”

Mormonism’s claim that Christianity was once in accord with their own faith should be historically provable. If Jesus’ teachings were corrupted through time, we should see evidence of this in historical records.

As a result we should see the following in historical documents/writings etc

1. In traditional Christian writings
   A Christian record with multiple inconsistencies and contradictions of primary beliefs as time progressed. As the true faith was corrupted into Christianity we should see a record showing how exclusively mormon beliefs were being substituted by Christian ones.
2. In Jesus’ true followers writings (supposedly mormons)
   Writings opposing the distortions being introduced by Christians. It is unreasonable to think that errors were blindly accepted by those who knew Jesus’ real teachings. They would have been taking every step possible to preserve Jesus’ words and writing against the Christian sect.

I must note that it is not sufficient to state that in early Christian history there were groups that claimed trueness while preaching a non traditional Christian message. It is essential that one can prove that a group existed that taught exclusively Mormon/JW/Muslim teaching at that time.

The biggest problem I see with Mormonism is that they make Jesus a very incompetent man/god. His poor choice of church leadership lead to its demise no more than 200 years after its institution. He then (according to the BoM) tries a second time to do the same but fails once more in instituting a church in the Americas. Then Joseph Smith arrives in the scene and he accomplishes what Jesus could not. A man ultimately accomplished what God/Jesus could not … makes you think

Well hope this stimulates some healthy discussion

Cheers and God bless

Alex

 

[Catholic20064]

Po18Guy or Rebecca,
Spiritual danger of what?
Why?
Says who?
When?
How will the spiritual danger happen?
By whom will it happen?

To the extent that you continue to teach a false gospel you are in danger of God’s judgment. Whether that will take the form of an eternity in hell or a long time in purgatory is God’s decision, but you will fall under the judgment of God for teaching error especially when that error is so easily refutable. It’s not as if anyone can make a good case for the Book of Mormon – it’s an obvious fraud. It has been proven to be false beyond any shadow of reasonable doubt and you can find the proof all over the internet. The more is known about the history of the Native Americans, the more it is clear they did not descend from a Middle Eastern civilization. That exposes the the entire Book of Mormon story as a fraud.

 

[RebeccaJ]

Po18Guy or Rebecca,
Spiritual danger of what?
Why?
Says who?
When?
How will the spiritual danger happen?
By whom will it happen?

While I firmly believe God is our judge, I also believe scripture makes it quite clear what puts our souls in jeopardy. All who believe should repent and be baptized. You do not yet believe.

This is the spiritual danger of Mormonism. 1) It is an effective block to a person accepting the truth of Christ’s Church. 2) It is a religion that actively seeks to remove people from the truth. 3) When the Mormon house of cards fall, the false teachings have been so effective at blocking understanding of God, their souls so abused by lies, people become atheists.

 

[Catholic20064]

While I firmly believe God is our judge, I also believe scripture makes it quite clear what puts our souls in jeopardy. All who believe should repent and be baptized. You do not yet believe.

This is the spiritual danger of Mormonism. 1) It is an effective block to a person accepting the truth of Christ’s Church. 2) It is a religion that actively seeks to remove people from the truth. 3) When the Mormon house of cards fall, the false teachings have been so effective at blocking understanding of God, their souls so abused by lies, people become atheists.

That is one of the results of Mormonism that continues to mystify me – I find that a large percentage of ex-Mormons actually become atheists. It’s a sad thing to see. Of course there are a good percentage of Mormons who remain Mormons even when they know it is false. They do it for social reasons. They call themselves “New Order Mormons” – they know the Book of Mormon is a fraud, but they stay so they don’t offend their families or for business reasons, etc. I suspect those kind are especially found in Utah.

 

[StevieD]

The LDS claim that the BoM is an actual history of God’s dealings with his people in the Americas. So the claims should be easily provable through DNA, geography, archeaology, anthropology and linguistics (among other disciplines) but golly me, guess what - not a hint of any such evidence! So why haven’t they all abandoned the LDS? Well many have but the LDS strongly discourages its members from reading anything that is not faith-building so many see only the official side of anything controversial. If they do become aware of certain problems, then there are answers (of a very convoluted and barrel scraping kind) from official LDS sources. This is less a religion than a culture involving family and community bonds thus many of the members will do any mental gymnastics necessary to ‘stay on board’. I have even read one member claim that God disposed of all the evidence of the peoples and events mentioned in the BoM to test their faith!!

Joseph Smith Jr is the only ‘prophet’ ever to have claimed to see the Father in the form of a man! And was late given permission (indeed instructed) by an angel with a flaming sword to indulge in ‘plural marriages’. He resisted of course but then relented!

mormonproblems.blogspot.com

 

[po18guy]

Po18Guy or Rebecca,
Spiritual danger of what?
Why?
Says who?
When?
How will the spiritual danger happen?
By whom will it happen?

Does God reward the truth, or lies? Please consider this first. He has revealed Himself to mankind through various prophets, right? He spoke directly to us, telling us that “Beside me, there is no other”. Jesus said clearly that He “and the Father are One” and that “before Abraham was, I am”. The Lord was not being coy here - He spoke clearly and directly in declarative sentences.

The danger is that you have chosen to believe in a different, and I believe, false god. THAT is the danger. Will the true and eternal God reward you for believing in a false, man-made, “one of many” god? Scripture clearly tells us the answer to that is “No”.

You have faith and love within you, and the LDS church certainly has some biblical truth in it, but it goes far beyond the revealed truth, trusting in the words of one man. This likely will be completely lost on you, but Catholics, and our separated brethren in Christ have an affirmative duty to advise you of the error of LDS teaching.

We are praying that the Holy Spirit will illumine your heart and mind, as He did with both RebeccaJ and me.

 

[RebeccaJ]

That is one of the results of Mormonism that continues to mystify me – I find that a large percentage of ex-Mormons actually become atheists.

I went from Mormonism to atheism. I was an atheist for nearly 20 years.

The majority of Mormons do not rely on Jesus. Their foundation of belief is in Joseph Smith and his Book of Mormon. All it takes is their belief in the BoM and/or JS to vanish and atheism becomes a real potential.

The commonalities for atheists that were Mormons are mainly not trusting any religion or God, ever again. Mormons are taught their whole lives that truth is known by good feelings. How do you trust your feelings when they have betrayed you so thoroughly and completely? The sense of betrayal, of being duped, is huge. For people that have been Mormon for a very long time, they have a very large amount of time and money that has been put into a lie. People protect themselves from this ever happening again. A lack of trust, in many forms, is a very large hurdle to belief. Plus, they have been taught many lies and half-truths about Christianity, and believe, that all of Christianity is false.

The other commonality is the belief about God that Mormonism teaches. It poisons people against a true understanding. This poisoning remains after a person leaves Mormonism.

So, if your own feelings can’t be trusted, how do you know the truth? It isn’t hard to find the truth as it is presented in a secular world. No feelings to get in the way. Only complete empirical evidence which is easier to trust than feelings, or a religion that who knows where it comes from and what lies they might be trying to foster onto you.

For myself, I decided out of curiousity to see what Christianity taught and what Christians believe. As an atheist, I did this with other belief systems. Hinduism is probably the closest I came to adopting the beliefs I studied. I went to Mass and I went to an Anglican service. I liked the more liberal teachings of the Episcopalian church. As I studied more, and learned the roots of the Anglican church, it was easy for me to drop it. I would never, in my life, ever trust a religion that is started by a human. Whether it is Joseph Smith or the King of England. The Catholic Church is what I continued to study and learn, as I wanted to understand the roots of Christianity, as taught by Christ, since the Apostles. There is only one Church that has this, the catholic Church (little ‘c’, encompassing the whole Church).

The ironic thing, is that the Mormon teaching that Jesus is a God and not THE God, helped me out. In my atheism, it was their god, they call God the Father, that I rejected. I never rejected Jesus as God because I never had a belief that He is God. It is Jesus who I followed and who led me to His Church.

 

[Finrock]

Hello RebeccaJ. Glad to see you posting today!

Just because God destroys the wicked, does not mean He did not send us, the wicked, a Savior.

Exactly! You seem to understand the point. God destroyed the wicked Nephites, but that didn’t mean that he didn’t send a Savior. I made no suggestion that Jesus’ mortal life was intended to condemn the world. He came to atone for the sins of the world so that the repentant could be saved, not those who willfully and knowingly rebel against God and truth. But, as you suggested, the ideas that God destroys the wicked, yet saves those who believe on Him, aren’t mutually exclusive.

You also seem to be suggesting that all sinfulness is equal. It is true that we are all sinners, but it’s altogether a different thing to say that this makes us “wicked.” I don’t believe that, anyways. I’m sure you have your faults, RebeccaJ, as do I, but I don’t for a second think you are wicked. The wicked are those who have known the truth, yet they have willfully chosen to fight against it. They are those who have dedicated their lives to doing evil.

(A side note, but what comes to my mind from what you write. The saddest thing is this love you have for Jesus, you can never actually tell Him as your religion forbids it.)

First, by expressing my love to the Father, I am expressing my love to the Savior. I can’t express my love to the Father and not also be expressing my love to the Son. It is the same. Nonetheless, I tell Jesus directly that I love Him often. Each time I testify of Him, I express my love for Him. Each time I obey Him, I manifest my love for Him. In my prayers to the Father, I express my love to the Savior Jesus. There is nothing in my religion that forbids me from telling Jesus that I love Him. This notion that you have of Mormonism is a strange notion indeed. In any case, hopefully now you have a better understanding of Mormonism.

Kind Regards,
Finrock

 

[RebeccaJ]

Finrock, it isn’t a notion. Do you, or do you not, pray to Jesus? When do you talk to Him and praise Him as all Christians should? When do you kneel before Him in awe of all He has done for you? When do you, as a church, a community, pray to Him?

You have some odd ideas about what it means to worship Jesus if you believe it is done by not doing it.