What is the Catholic teaching on 1 Cor. 1:8?

[fhansen]

Pope Benedict XVI sums it up nicely:

“Luther’s expression sola fide is true if faith is not opposed to charity, to love” (Wednesday Audience, Nov. 19, 2008)

Exactly. And Scripture makes it clear that faith and love are separate virtues. Love would encompass them all but faith can exist without love. The Catholic Church, BTW, considers the theological virtue of faith to be “intellectual assent”-and not sufficient on its own because even demons can possess that.
"The only thing that counts is faith working thorough love." Gal 5:6

 

[fhansen]

Any time we add faith + etc…we are saying christ’s death is not enough. Our sinful self has to do something too.

If we’re required to have faith I can level the same charge-that Christ’s death isn’t enough. Something is expected of man-and that something is always a gift of grace but, as with all gifts it can be rejected. And that something is more than faith alone, even if it all begins there from man’s perspective.

 

[Julius_Caesar]

This text has absolutely nothing to do with faith + works for salvation.

It does.

Read on.

You believe that God is one; you do well. Even the demons believe—and shudder. Do you want to be shown, you senseless person, that faith apart from works is barren? Was not our ancestor Abraham justified by works when he offered his son Isaac on the altar? You see that faith was active along with his works, and faith was brought to completion by the works. Thus the scripture was fulfilled that says, “Abraham believed God, and it was reckoned to him as righteousness,” and he was called the friend of God. You see that a person is justified by works and not by faith alone.
James 2:19‭-‬24 NRSV-CI

Faith isn’t faith if works aren’t involved. So there is no point in saying faith vs works, because as James said, works complete one’s faith.

 

[Julius_Caesar]

Let’s read this text again.

Was not our ancestor Abraham justified by works when he offered his son Isaac on the altar? You see that faith was active along with his works, and faith was brought to completion by the works. Thus the scripture was fulfilled that says, “Abraham believed God, and it was reckoned to him as righteousness,” and he was called the friend of God.
James 2:21‭-‬23 NRSV-CI

God said Abraham was righteous here because of what he did.

 

[Julius_Caesar]

Abraham was made righteous by faith before Issac was born.

And was declared righteous and in friendship with God when he sacrificed Isaac.

 

[Julius_Caesar]

Works show your faith , correct?

Complete is more to the point.

 

[PSUCath]

If I never give any indication that I am a Christian by my deeds, my faith is dead…not really a Christian.

This text has absolutely nothing to do with faith + works for salvation.

You seem to be misinterpreting this passage. It absolutely has to do with faith working through love as a means of salvation. The passage you quoted is from James 2, specifically verse 18. What you’ve done is take this verse out of context and apply a conclusion to it that isn’t found in the text (“not really a Christian”)

Let’s read on, to verse 19:

You believe that God is one; you do well.

James recognizes that having an intellectual faith, by itself, is a good thing. To claim that a person who has a mere intellectual faith is “not really a Christian” would be Scripturally fallacious because James clearly commends this mere intellectual faith. But let’s see why James says this type of faith is not enough:

Even the demons believe—and shudder!

Demons have an intellectual faith in God, more strong than any of us will ever have on earth. But they do not choose to cooperate in the active part of the faith. They do not do good works to supplement their faith. For the same reason, a Christian who solely has faith with no works is no better off than a demon in terms of his salvation. James does not mince words when he warns:

Do you want to be shown, you foolish person, that faith apart from works is useless?

 

[PSUCath]

Where does it say "when he sacrificed Issac?

It seems like the Catholics and Protestants are “talking past each other” in this discussion. Benny12, I encourage you to read one of my previous responses to you which I emphasized the need to define the word faith. Could you define for us how you define faith? Is it a mere intellectual understanding that God exists, or is it a faith which is active through charity and love?

What the Catholics are trying to advocate for is that when we see the word “faith,” we view it as both an intellectual belief and an application of that belief. In order to truly have faith, we must cooperate with the grace given to us and live our lives as Christ did.

 

[Julius_Caesar]

Here.

Was not our ancestor Abraham justified by works when he offered his son Isaac on the altar? You see that faith was active along with his works, and faith was brought to completion by the works. Thus the scripture was fulfilled that says, “Abraham believed God, and it was reckoned to him as righteousness,” and he was called the friend of God.
James 2:21‭-‬23 NRSV-CI

 

[Julius_Caesar]

You seem to be misinterpreting this passage. It absolutely has to do with faith working through love as a means of salvation. The passage you quoted is from James 2, specifically verse 18. What you’ve done is take this verse out of context and apply a conclusion to it that isn’t found in the text (“not really a Christian”)

Let’s read on, to verse 19:

You believe that God is one; you do well.

Couldn’t James have just been sarcastic? Because a few verses later James calls the listener a fool.

Do you want to be shown, you senseless person, that faith apart from works is barren?
James 2:20 NRSV-CI

 

[PSUCath]

Couldn’t James have just been sarcastic?

It’s certainly a possibility. There is no way for us as 21st century Christians to know his true intent in writing what he did. But regardless of this, James’s point remains unchanged: in order for your faith to save you, it must result in you performing good works.

My understanding of this verse is that James is being sincere and commending Christians for having faith. When he says “you fool,” he is responding to the unbiblical claim that this faith is all that is needed for salvation.

 

[PSUCath]

Abraham’s obedience in offering Isaac demonstrated that he really did trust God.

Amen, no dispute here. The only question is this: had Abraham not demonstrated that he trusted God, would he still have been justified? James’s answer is a clear and resounding no. James makes clear that faith alone, when not accompanied by works, cannot save. For this reason, it is clear that faith working through love is necessary for salvation, and any deviation from this will not save. Let both the Catholics and Protestants be careful not to separate faith from works and turn it into a discussion of “faith vs. works” or “faith + works.” The best way to describe what Catholics believe in terms of faith is exactly how Paul described it in Gal. 5:6 -

For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision nor uncircumcision counts for anything, but only faith working through love.

 

[Julius_Caesar]

That’s not what James said.

Was not our ancestor Abraham justified by works when he offered his son Isaac on the altar? Thus the scripture was fulfilled that says, “Abraham believed God, and it was reckoned to him as righteousness,” and he was called the friend of God.
James 2:21‭, ‬23 NRSV-CI

James 2:21-23 Was not our ancestor Abraham justified by works when he offered his son Isaac on the altar? You see that faith was active along with his works, and faith was brought to completion by the works. Thus t | New Revised Standard Version Cath

 

[PSUCath]

Does this apply to the thief on the cross?

Yes, it does. I would encourage you to read this article by Douglas Beaumont, which sums up the Good Thief’s salvation well:

The Good Thief and Salvation by Faith Alone | Catholic Answers Magazine

 

[fhansen]

This text has absolutely nothing to do with faith + works for salvation.

"Now a man came up to Jesus and asked, "Teacher, what good thing must I do to get eternal life?"
"Why do you ask me about what is good?" Jesus replied. “There is only One who is good. If you want to enter life, obey the commandments.” Matt 19:16-17
“Love fulfills the law”. Rom 13:10

"To those who by persistence in doing good seek glory, honor and immortality, he will give eternal life." Rom 2:7
Love motivates good works such as those prepared for us to do as per Eph 2:10 or those done “for the least of these” (as criteria for judgement) in Matt 25

"Make every effort to live in peace with everyone and to be holy; without holiness no one will see the Lord." Heb 12:14
Love compels holiness- equates to it actually.

"For it is not those who hear the law who are righteous in God’s sight, but it is those who obey the law who will be declared righteous." Rom 2:13
Love, again

"At the evening of life we shall be judged on our love." St John of the Cross

 

[fhansen]

Abraham was made righteous by faith before Issac was born.

James says, show you faith by your deeds.

That’s what Abraham did. He showed his faith.

James said that we’re not justified by faith alone. I’ve supplied the missing part in my posts, reflected here:.

"Without love faith may indeed exist, but avails nothing." St Augustine

 

[fhansen]

Another problem with the article:
The second and much bigger problem is that even if the good thief had never been baptized, the analogy between his life and most other people’s is insufficient to support. One issue is that the thief lived and died under the Old Covenant.

Jesus died before the thieves. That would mean that are under the New Covenant

They were under the NC. God can override the need for His sacraments or any other more formal directive He gives-that’s Church teaching. The thief mustered whatever he had to offer-whatever he could-and God honored it. That’s what we know.

 

[fhansen]

I would defer to Catholic answers except to say that, when a similar situation presents itself today I doubt God simply reverts back to the requirements of the OC, but rather applies His judgement based on whatever possibilities the person has to meet those of the New, again, judging by the heart as He does at the end of the day. A universal truth.

 

[lanman87]

Could you define for us how you define faith? Is it a mere intellectual understanding that God exists, or is it a faith which is active through charity and love?

I’m not Benny12 but I would like to answer this question. You are correct, Catholics and Non-Catholics have different definitions of faith.

Traditionally, Non-Catholics hold that there are three different types of faith/belief.

One is an intellectual understanding and belief that Christ is who He says He is. As Reformed Theologian, RC Sproul put it, “If you have this kind of faith then congratulations, you qualify to be a demon”.

A second kind of faith is an emotional faith/belief. This is a faith that is great as long as I feel good about it. But when things get tough or it no longer “feels” good and the emotions fade, then the “faith” fades as well.

The third kind of faith is a “saving faith” or a “living faith”. This is a faith that comes not from intellectual understanding or emotional reactions (although those things can and do accompany a saving faith) but instead comes for a work of God through the Holy Spirit on the heart of mankind. This faith causes a fundamental change in our hearts and desires, which causes a fundamental change in our actions.

So when I make the claim we are saved by “faith alone” I am speaking of a living faith that manifest itself in works of love and seeking His Kingdom and His Righteousness.

Non-Catholics do believe in performing works of love and seeking righteousness. The big difference, (as far as I can tell) is the we believe works of love and seeking righteousness is both caused by having a saving/living faith and evidence of having a saving/living faith. We don’t, however, believe that works of love and righteousness contribute to or improve our standing before God. We believe that it is the righteousness of Christ and His sacrifice that saves all who are given the gift of faith and eternal life. Any righteousness we achieve in this life, however good and noble, is still short of the mark needed and required for eternal life. Therefore we rely on Christ alone and not Christ and ourselves for our salvation. We are saved by Christ, not Christ plus our partaking in the sacraments, not Christ plus our gifts to the poor, not by Christ and our preaching the Gospel and so forth. And while we do those things, we do them not in order to “be saved” or even to maintain a salvation that we have previously received, but because we have “been saved” and those are the means of grace that God uses to grow our faith into maturity, spread His Gospel on the Earth, and most importantly, bring Glory to God.

 

[Julius_Caesar]

And while we do those things, we do them not in order to “be saved” or even to maintain a salvation that we have previously received, but because we have “been saved” and those are the means of grace that God uses to grow our faith into maturity, spread His Gospel on the Earth, and most importantly, bring Glory to God.

Many non Protestants would disagree, not to talk of Apostolic Christians.