What is the Church's position on the Intersexed and Transsexed?

[ClementRome]

And I keep asking you, on what basis do you believe gonads determine sex? (Does someone with a hysterectomy cease being female?)

And no one is debating chastity here. Yet you keeping bringing it up for some reason we can’t decipher.

What I keep stressing is God does not create everyone only female or only male as proven by the existence of intersex people. So far you haven’t been willing to explore that subject.

I believe intersexed babies are the result of original sin and the corruption sin causes in the world.

 

[agangbern]

Obviously we’re wasting our time. You’re not even reading Genesis. You are right about one thing and I can think of a particular person who cannot use logic.

Yes, I think you are wasting your time wishing that the Church would agree to your imagination. You want the Church to give extra special attention to intersexed and transsexed human beings, as if they deserve greater attention and dignity than other human beings. Yes, you are wasting your time dreaming for that. For before the eyes of God and the Church all human beings are equal in dignity…in their being woman or being man. Mentioning no third kind of being as to their kind.

 

[wasmit]

Deut 22:5

“A woman shall not wear an article proper to a man, nor shall a man put on a woman’s dress; for anyone who does such things is an abomination to the LORD, your God.”

this might be important for transexuals too:

deut 25:11-12 When men strive together one with another, and the wife of the one draweth near for to deliver her husband out of the hand of him that smiteth him, and putteth forth her hand, and taketh him by the secrets: Then thou shalt cut off her hand, thine eye shall not pity her.

If two men fight and the wife of one grabs the “secrets”(balls?) of the other, “then thou shalt cut off her hand” and “thine eye shall not pity her.”

 

[agangbern]

And as has been repeated over and over again, it is NOT as “simple as that.” It’s a shame that we keep going around in circles like this with you, and that you seem to be unwilling to expand your thinking just a little bit.

Expand my thinking up to the point of contradicting Church teaching? No way! You want the Church to change her teaching so that instead of humans being male and female (man and woman) there would be now a third kind because of the presence of intersexed and transsexed individuals? That is an impossible proposition. Truth is simply not relative. It is absolute.

 

[savienu]

Expand my thinking up to the point of contradicting Church teaching? No way! You want the Church to change her teaching so that instead of humans being male and female (man and woman) there would be now a third kind because of the presence of intersexed and transsexed individuals? That is an impossible proposition. Truth is simply not relative. It is absolute.

No one, least of all me, is asking you to contradict Church teaching. Are you a Canon Lawyer? Are you a theologian? There was a Canon Lawyer who spoke up on this thread, and that poster acknowledged that THE CHURCH DOES NOT ADDRESS THIS! It is NOT contradicting Church teaching to say that disabilities exist. My heart breaks for you. It really does. I must bow out of this thread now, as it is becoming an occasion of sin for me.

 

[agangbern]

No one, least of all me, is asking you to contradict Church teaching. Are you a Canon Lawyer? Are you a theologian? There was a Canon Lawyer who spoke up on this thread, and that poster acknowledged that THE CHURCH DOES NOT ADDRESS THIS! It is NOT contradicting Church teaching to say that disabilities exist. My heart breaks for you. It really does. I must bow out of this thread now, as it is becoming an occasion of sin for me.

But the Church and God Himself set out the truth for all humans, that they are only two kinds: Male and Female. In that sense, the Church actually already addressed the matter of the intersexed and transsexed. When the canon lawyer you mentioned here said that" the Church does not address this", he must be referring to the fact that the Church did not give special mention about the intersexed and transsexed. That special mention is not necessary anyway. For it is a fact that they too are human beings like all others.

Thank you for the opportunity talking with you.

God Bless.

 

[aspawloski4th]

But the Church and God Himself set out the truth for all humans, that they are only two kinds: Male and Female. In that sense, the Church actually already addressed the matter of the intersexed and transsexed. When the canon lawyer you mentioned here said that" the Church does not address this", he must be referring to the fact that the Church did not give special mention about the intersexed and transsexed. That special mention is not necessary anyway. For it is a fact that they too are human beings like all others.

Thank you for the opportunity talking with you.

God Bless.

I think the point you don’t seem to get here is, to being male or female there are more important aspects than just the physical. There the mental, psychological, and the spiritual. All 3 of which are much much more important than the physical by light years. For someone to look at just the physical me and leave it at that for looking who I am is ultra superficial and shallow. With lots of issues on my plate , I really don’t have a lot of time for superficial and shallow people on any issue of life. Humans are complicated beings lets just accept it.

 

[agangbern]

I think the point you don’t seem to get here is, to being male or female there are more important aspects than just the physical. There the mental, psychological, and the spiritual. All 3 of which are much much more important than the physical by light years. For someone to look at just the physical me and leave it at that for looking who I am is ultra superficial and shallow. With lots of issues on my plate , I really don’t have a lot of time for superficial and shallow people on any issue of life. Humans are complicated beings lets just accept it.

You are correct in that aspect. And I do not belittle that truth you declare here. But we go to the main question hiding in this thread: Are intersexed and transsexed MALEs or FEMALEs`? The Church and God Himself declared that there are only two choices to choose from: MALE or FEMALE. And female is basically defined as one who has the organ designed to produce ova. And by elimination, one who is not female is male.

 

[aspawloski4th]

You are correct in that aspect. And I do not belittle that truth you declare here. But we go to the main question hiding in this thread: Are intersexed and transsexed MALEs or FEMALEs`? The Church and God Himself declared that there are only two choices to choose from: MALE or FEMALE. And female is basically defined as one who has the organ designed to produce ova. And by elimination, one who is not female is male.

But what you seem to be proporting is the brain doesn’t count. Your question does’t count for people have both teste and ovaries. Yes people like that DO exist. To make the brain not matter is to treat humainity like mere animals. I’d hope we could get byond that.

 

[agangbern]

But what you seem to be proporting is the brain doesn’t count. Your question does’t count for people have both teste and ovaries. Yes people like that DO exist. To make the brain not matter is to treat humainity like mere animals. I’d hope we could get byond that.

The brain do count, yes. But female is not basically defined by her brain characteristics. A man could behave like a woman, think like a woman, etc. But that would still keep him male. So also with the woman. She may behave like a man in many respects, think like a man, etc. But she would still be female.

 

[aspawloski4th]

The brain do count, yes. But female is not basically defined by her brain characteristics. A man could behave like a woman, think like a woman, etc. But that would still keep him male. So also with the woman. He may behave like a man in many respects, think like a man, etc. But she would still be female.

When you talk behavior you are talking something more superficial and not core identity. Much of what you are refering to is learned from surroundings. I’m talking core identity and inner feelings that often words can’t define. One example of inner psychology with me is how a relate to the job I work. While males get idnetity through their jobs and carreers quite often. To me its just a job to pay bills while I define myself outside the job I work. I could bore everyone with example after example.

 

[agangbern]

When you talk behavior you are talking something more superficial and not core identity. Much of what you are refering to is learned from surroundings. I’m talking core identity and inner feelings that often words can’t define. One example of inner psychology with me is how a relate to the job I work. While males get idnetity through their jobs and carreers quite often. To me its just a job to pay bills while I define myself outside the job I work. I could bore everyone with example after example.

Ok, speak about “core identity and inner feelings”. Surely you are aware that our thoughts and our feelings are known to others only through behavior, that is through words and actions. How would those “core identity and inner feelings” make a female into a male?

 

[Ryckie]

To Zoe, You are such a brave and wonderful creature of God! I know your life has been hard. I could hear it in your letter and my heart hurts thinking about how you have been treated. I apologize for other Catholics and Christians that can’t show you the LOVE that they recieve from God everyday. If only they walked in your shoes one day. When will we all learn to live as God intends, with LOVE not just love. I try to teach my K-5 Sunday school children that God LOVEs us, and then hope I can live what I teach. I do fail at times and thank God for the Sacrament of Reconcilliation! I will be praying for you, your spouse and your son, and that you also can feel God’s LOVE from others.
Ryckie, Charleston SC

 

[agangbern]

To Zoe, You are such a brave and wonderful creature of God! I know your life has been hard. I could hear it in your letter and my heart hurts thinking about how you have been treated. I apologize for other Catholics and Christians that can’t show you the LOVE that they recieve from God everyday. If only they walked in your shoes one day. When will we all learn to live as God intends, with LOVE not just love. I try to teach my K-5 Sunday school children that God LOVEs us, and then hope I can live what I teach. I do fail at times and thank God for the Sacrament of Reconcilliation! I will be praying for you, your spouse and your son, and that you also can feel God’s LOVE from others.
Ryckie, Charleston SC

Yes, Zoe. Stay happy of the gift that God willed you to be.The cross that each of us bear would be easy to carry when our eyes is focused on the life of Jesus.

 

[aspawloski4th]

Ok, speak about “core identity and inner feelings”. Surely you are aware that our thoughts and our feelings are known to others only through behavior, that is through words and actions. How would those “core identity and inner feelings” make a female into a male?

Inner self Identity!

 

[agangbern]

But what you seem to be proporting is the brain doesn’t count. Your question does’t count for people have both teste and ovaries. Yes people like that DO exist.

Oh, I missed this one, sorry.

So you are telling me now that Zoe got for himself a wife, begot a child with her, while all along he was producing ova, right? If that is what you are telling me now, then let us examine that claim with a “microscope” for truth.

First, when did Zoe submit himself to internal medical examination that confirmed he was indeed producing ova? And in what hospital or clinic?

Second, what event in his life made him decide to submit himself to such medical examination?

And third, when he married his wife, was he thinking that he was a male, a female, or what?

 

[agangbern]

Inner self Identity!

Tell us more about it. How do others know of the inner self identity of an individual without him behaving out that identity ?

 

[aspawloski4th]

Oh, I missed this one, sorry.

So you are telling me now that Zoe got for himself a wife, begot a child with her, while all along he was producing ova, right? If that is what you are telling me now, then let us examine that claim with a “microscope” for truth.

First, when did Zoe submit himself to internal medical examination that confirmed he was indeed producing ova? And in what hospital or clinic?

Second, what event in his life made him decide to submit himself to such medical examination?

And third, when he married his wife, was he thinking that he was a male, a female, or what?

If Zoe’s story is like mine, its a matter of what you are brought up with and have driven into you. When I was growing up, if I would of told my parents I felt like a girl inside I’d ether end up severely punished or a homeless child. I was in special ed most of my childhood trying to get out. I sucked up and pretended on a lot of things in order to get out.

 

[agangbern]

If Zoe’s story is like mine, its a matter of what you are brought up with and have driven into you. When I was growing up, if I would of told my parents I felt like a girl inside I’d ether end up severely punished or a homeless child. I was in special ed most of my childhood trying to get out. I sucked up and pretended on a lot of things in order to get out.

You mean all along you wanted to tell your parents that you were having menstruation? (Please don`t get me wrong, I am not trying to insult anyone here). I want to know if you really had an ovary as you want to tell us here.

 

[aspawloski4th]

You mean all along you wanted to tell your parents that you were having menstruation? (Please don`t get me wrong, I am not trying to insult anyone here). I want to know if you really had an ovary as you want to tell us here.

Boy do you not get it! I felt I had the soul of a female. At that age I didn’t even know what a period was!